[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

You know even having a beliefs structure, of sorts, I've never used that as something to blame my falls, or even thank for my accomplishments. But that all sort of got covered in our conversations on meditations. But to answer you specific question, no I don't feel that I need that cane.

So, why even bother having a belief structure, if you ar enot going to use it?

If you don't use that cane, then why don't you just discard it?

True, but there are some things that science (at least some of the main stream sciences) can't always explain. Granted some of the studies on electro-magnetic fields can be. In some ways, that probably should be the next area of study in my search.

Cannot yet explain, that would be the way I'd phrase it. In electromagnetic fields I cannot help you, while physics is not my least favorite science -- that title belongs to organic chemistry -- it's all in the realm of black magic for me.

Caffeine makes me tired.

I have a friend like that, he takes strong coffee to sleep well.

Ideally yes, but I'm not sure if I'd trust most people that far.

I don't think I understand - you trust people's biases and prejudices based on religion more than other sorts of biases and prejudices?

Because you know, religions so far have been the greatest source of biases and prejudices in the history of the human kind.

Have you ever studied any of Carl Jung's work? That's been one of the areas that has kept me fascinated.

Long time ago, but yes. His Answer to Job was a book that made me really think and doubt my religious convictions in the first place. Then I started to learn about history of religions and the doubts deepened.

I've used the archetypes before, especially in story telling and gaming. I know it's a bit random, but I wanted to hear your thoughts on it.

That was really long time ago, I was in high school. I remember I was impressed at the time. Today, I'm not so sure about the "innateness" of archetypes: it would be really difficult to separate the innate from the effect of cultures interacting and either voluntary or forced diffusion of myths and archetypes.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

=Dolores de Barriga;1168880]So, why even bother having a belief structure, if you ar enot going to use it? If you don't use that cane, then why don't you just discard it?

The most honest answer I can give you is I don't know. The rest of the answer is to some degree, it's what I have as far as an explanation for some things. I have little oddities that I've actually been a bit afraid to bring up here, that's part of the reason for the electromagnetic field interest. I keep looking and I keep learning. I believe that as long as I'm willing to keep learning, I'm on the right path.

Cannot yet explain, that would be the way I'd phrase it. In electromagnetic fields I cannot help you, while physics is not my least favorite science -- that title belongs to organic chemistry -- it's all in the realm of black magic for me.

See there is a part of you that still believes in magic *joking*. I have a few particular things I'm looking for, but it's hard to find any info on it on actual scientific sites. The only groups that have anything at all on it (at least that I've found) are the Spirit Science groups, and yes it gets frustrating.

I have a friend like that, he takes strong coffee to sleep well.

. I was beginning to think I was alone there. I originally found out when I was in the hospital (after surgery) and every time I'd ring to tell them I couldn't sleep, they would bring me more pain meds. We finally realized that was what was keeping me up.

I don't think I understand - you trust people's biases and prejudices based on religion more than other sorts of biases and prejudices?

No not really, I have a hard time trusting people in general. I understand where the biases and prejudices in religion are. It's sort of the enemy you know versus the enemy you don't know.


I'm working on fixing my issues with people in general, fixing that will probably make some of this come easier.

Because you know, religions so far have been the greatest source of biases and prejudices in the history of the human kind.

No people are the biggest source of biases and prejudices, religion just seems to be the most popular excuse.

Long time ago, but yes. His Answer to Job was a book that made me really think and doubt my religious convictions in the first place. Then I started to learn about history of religions and the doubts deepened. That was really long time ago, I was in high school. I remember I was impressed at the time. Today, I'm not so sure about the "innateness" of archetypes: it would be really difficult to separate the innate from the effect of cultures interacting and either voluntary or forced diffusion of myths and archetypes.

True enough, and I'm not sure if I can account for that either.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

The most honest answer I can give you is I don't know. The rest of the answer is to some degree, it's what I have as far as an explanation for some things.

"I don't know" is actually a very good answer when it comes to supernatural stuff. We cannot scientifically prove nor disprove these things. Consequently, the more I think about it, the more the agnostic position - I don't know, I cannot know, and I don't care - seems to me the healthiest way to approach religion.

I have a few particular things I'm looking for, but it's hard to find any info on it on actual scientific sites. The only groups that have anything at all on it (at least that I've found) are the Spirit Science groups, and yes it gets frustrating.

I did some reading on it, and yes, it does seem rather... sad and misinformed. I was particularly intrigued by the part about 100,000 x 3 = 150,000. Also, it's amazing how much of the ancient history beliefs is clearly contradicted by actual archaeological evidence.

My main beef with the UFO people is, why is it that it's always the Indians and the Egyptians who need extraterrestrials to do everything for them, while you never hear about Greek and Roman accomplishments in the same way? It is applied racism, quite frankly: white people did their stuff on their own, brown people were too stupid to accomplish anything on their own, so let's make up some aliens who did everything for them.

Sorry for the rant. I try to be tolerant and open minded towards other peoples beliefs, but this crap is my limit.

You seem like a person who could understand some scientific jargon, may I interest you instead in browsing through Google Scholar? I'm sure that if you give it some more specific keywords, you will be able to find something recent and relevant to your particular interests.

No not really, I have a hard time trusting people in general. I understand where the biases and prejudices in religion are. It's sort of the enemy you know versus the enemy you don't know.

But shouldn't our goal be eliminating known sources of hatred and xenophobia, in hope - albeit romantic and certainly Utopian one - of one day eliminating them all?

I'm working on fixing my issues with people in general, fixing that will probably make some of this come easier.

There are good people and bad people. You just need to learn to find the former and avoid the latter. Personally, it took me from elementary to high school to do learn that, but since then it's been much easier.

No people are the biggest source of biases and prejudices, religion just seems to be the most popular excuse.

Religion is not just the excuse. Religions were created by people with very specific purpose in mind: the purpose of oppressing, exploiting, and/or destroying certain groups of people - be it foreigners, nonbelievers, women, lower classes, homosexuals, independent thinkers, scientists, etc, etc. So yes, people are the ultimate source of all of the injustices created by religions, but people created religions as the justification of these injustices.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

"I don't know" is actually a very good answer when it comes to supernatural stuff. We cannot scientifically prove nor disprove these things. Consequently, the more I think about it, the more the agnostic position - I don't know, I cannot know, and I don't care - seems to me the healthiest way to approach religion.

Thanks. I was actually considering going back and trying to rephrase some if these responses. I wasn't sure if 'I don't know' was going to seem like a frustrating cop-out. The problem was when I thought about how to rephrase it, I still couldn't come up with a better way to.


I care in part because I'm curious about the myths and the archetypes/concepts that they represent. Understanding those gives another way of understanding humanity as a whole. Granted it's another way, not the only way.

I did some reading on it, and yes, it does seem rather... sad and misinformed. I was particularly intrigued by the part about 100,000 x 3 = 150,000. Also, it's amazing how much of the ancient history beliefs is clearly contradicted by actual archaeological evidence. My main beef with the UFO people is, why is it that it's always the Indians and the Egyptians who need extraterrestrials to do everything for them, while you never hear about Greek and Roman accomplishments in the same way? It is applied racism, quite frankly: white people did their stuff on their own, brown people were too stupid to accomplish anything on their own, so let's make up some aliens who did everything for them.

Yes, I know what you mean. I have some interesting gems that I've heard to.

Sorry for the rant. I try to be tolerant and open minded towards other peoples beliefs, but this crap is my limit.

No worries, it's ok. Yours is far from the worst rant, I've heard on any given topic. Honestly you should hear me at times, even (or especially) on my own beliefs.

You seem like a person who could understand some scientific jargon, may I interest you instead in browsing through Google Scholar? I'm sure that if you give it some more specific keywords, you will be able to find something recent and relevant to your particular interests.

I will take a look. I'm sure that will still lead to plenty of questions for you.

But shouldn't our goal be eliminating known sources of hatred and xenophobia, in hope - albeit romantic and certainly Utopian one - of one day eliminating them all?

Hmmm conditions already? *joking* Should the goal be to eliminate the sources? Or to eliminate the reasons for (hunger, poverty, sickness) etc.? Maybe if we worked on dealing with the sources, some of it would get taken care of on its own.

There are good people and bad people. You just need to learn to find the former and avoid the latter. Personally, it took me from elementary to high school to do learn that, but since then it's been much easier.

You have a good point. I'm really sorry about lashing out about that.

Religion is not just the excuse. Religions were created by people with very specific purpose in mind: the purpose of oppressing, exploiting, and/or destroying certain groups of people - be it foreigners, nonbelievers, women, lower classes, homosexuals, independent thinkers, scientists, etc, etc. So yes, people are the ultimate source of all of the injustices created by religions, but people created religions as the justification of these injustices.

I wish I could remember the Star Trek episode where they were discussing this. Religion (using the all-inclusive definition here), seems very bipolar. It has been used for some of the most depraved things, but at the same time it's been used for some of the most uplifting things as well. Sorry, I spent most of the night sleeping; while Star Trek episodes were playing in the background.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Hi All

...Religion (using the all-inclusive definition here), seems very bipolar. It has been used for some of the most depraved things, but at the same time it's been used for some of the most uplifting things as well...

Because humans.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

I care in part because I'm curious about the myths and the archetypes/concepts that they represent. Understanding those gives another way of understanding humanity as a whole. Granted it's another way, not the only way.

Well, I think that you can care about myths with their archetypes and concepts and without caring for the supernatural realm they are supposed to represent. Whether you take a more Jungian view of looking for universals, or Levi-Strauss' view observing permutations and changes of different versions of a single myth, or any other myth analysis method, supernatural doesn't have to be a part of your study at all. In fact, in many cases it can't -- for example with the Bible, you either see it as the infallible Word of God, or split it apart to see echoes of Sumerian tales. The same with any other mythology, too: they are either an internally coherent image of the supernatural or a mosaic of distant echoes of older belief systems.

Hmmm conditions already? *joking* Should the goal be to eliminate the sources? Or to eliminate the reasons for (hunger, poverty, sickness) etc.? Maybe if we worked on dealing with the sources, some of it would get taken care of on its own.

Sounds good in theory, but eliminating reasons for poverty, hunger, etc would mean changing the entire world system.

We actively support injustice each time we buy cheap clothes, shoes, electronics, food etc made by slave labor - and while I don't know, maybe you are extra conscious about these things, but most people do it every day without even giving it a second thought. You need much more than Occupy Wall Street to change that.

Part of that change would have to be a drastic change in ideology. What I'm not sure about, is can you clean up an ideology, such as Christianity, or Islam for that matter, which has been used to justify racism, genocide, ethnocide, misogyny, slavery, etc, and just wipe out that 1700/1300 years of bloody history and say that we are all for love&peace for all now, and please just don't look at millions of skeletons in our closets?

I wish I could remember the Star Trek episode where they were discussing this. Religion (using the all-inclusive definition here), seems very bipolar. It has been used for some of the most depraved things, but at the same time it's been used for some of the most uplifting things as well. Sorry, I spent most of the night sleeping; while Star Trek episodes were playing in the background.

I'm definitely not a Star Trek specialist, but I've read a bit about several religions. I agree that religion has some pluses. As I've said before, it's a useful cane for people who feel too weak to stand on their own. Unfortunately, once we get out of private life domain into the public life domain, religions get pretty oppressive pretty fast. And what is most sad, is that the victims happily accept their oppression because they believe that's their guarantee to get to Heaven. How twisted is that?

P.S.: I'm not a HTML coding specialist either, but you desperately need a crash course on that. [ is used to open a code. ] is used to end a code. Adding extra ones screws up things.

Look at the difference:
[QUOTE=LocusSolace;1168952]text[/quote]
Which without playing with colors comes out as:

text

And that's what you've been doing:
[QUOTE]=LocusSolace;1168952]text[/quote]
Which without color change comes out as:

=LocusSolace;1168952]text

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Because humans.

I agree

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Hi All

Because humans.

Don't be silly. When used as directed, the Christian Faith is the only thing that can offer one Salvation from Hell. If one chooses not to obey the LORD's rules in the LORD's world, then one chooses eternal damnation (John 3:18). And good riddance to bad garbage, I say.

I don't know why this lady makes it so complicated. She nags an awful lot. I wonder if her husband shot himself to rid himself of the yammering, but missed and crippled himself. Too bad someone didn't show him the Holy Bible before. He could have learned that controlling his wife would have been worth the effort (Proverbs 21:9).

In any case LocusSolace, if you have no actual support for your beliefs, then why in the world do you hold them? You sound like a preschooler who demands everyone else agree that Big Bird really lives in the next city just because it makes him feel good when as he learns how big and unknown the world really is. Those who need a comforting lie rather than an uncomfortable truth are cowards of the worst kind. They lie to themselves with no concern for Truth™ or Reality™.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Don't be silly. When used as directed, the Christian Faith is the only thing that can offer one Salvation from Hell. If one chooses not to obey the LORD's rules in the LORD's world, then one chooses eternal damnation (John 3:18). And good riddance to bad garbage, I say.

Its amazing how many times you perfectly illustrate some of the points made by some of the less religious posters.

I don't know why this lady makes it so complicated. She nags an awful lot. I wonder if her husband shot himself to rid himself of the yammering, but missed and crippled himself. Too bad someone didn't show him the Holy Bible before. He could have learned that controlling his wife would have been worth the effort (Proverbs 21:9).

Awwww, I know your day wouldn't be complete without reading what I wrote. I look forward to your kind words as well.

In any case LocusSolace, if you have no actual support for your beliefs, then why in the world do you hold them? You sound like a preschooler who demands everyone else agree that Big Bird really lives in the next city just because it makes him feel good when as he learns how big and unknown the world really is. Those who need a comforting lie rather than an uncomfortable truth are cowards of the worst kind. They lie to themselves with no concern for Truth™ or Reality™.

You trademark truth, reality, and a few other words like you have exclusive rights to them. If you are so confident, then why the trademarks?

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Well, I think that you can care about myths with their archetypes and concepts and without caring for the supernatural realm they are supposed to represent. Whether you take a more Jungian view of looking for universals, or Levi-Strauss' view observing permutations and changes of different versions of a single myth, or any other myth analysis method, supernatural doesn't have to be a part of your study at all. In fact, in many cases it can't -- for example with the Bible, you either see it as the infallible Word of God, or split it apart to see echoes of Sumerian tales. The same with any other mythology, too: they are either an internally coherent image of the supernatural or a mosaic of distant echoes of older belief systems.

Leaving out the supernatural constructs eliminates a way of understanding humanity. It seems like cultures with the more demanding God figures and punishment/reward systems also have had the more demanding existences.

Sounds good in theory, but eliminating reasons for poverty, hunger, etc would mean changing the entire world system.

Isn't that what its coming down to one way or the other?

We actively support injustice each time we buy cheap clothes, shoes, electronics, food etc made by slave labor - and while I don't know, maybe you are extra conscious about these things, but most people do it every day without even giving it a second thought. You need much more than Occupy Wall Street to change that.

I know, and I try to be very conscious about them. I know I'm not as conscious about it as I should be, but I try to do as much as I can.

Part of that change would have to be a drastic change in ideology. What I'm not sure about, is can you clean up an ideology, such as Christianity, or Islam for that matter, which has been used to justify racism, genocide, ethnocide, misogyny, slavery, etc, and just wipe out that 1700/1300 years of bloody history and say that we are all for love&peace for all now, and please just don't look at millions of skeletons in our closets?

Those that repeat history are doomed to repeat it. I don't think the goal should be to ignore the skeletons in religions closet. They have to be remembered. Perhaps a better goal would be to clean up the ideology and learn from said skeletons; learn to avoid the same mistakes so that history doesn't repeat itself.

I'm definitely not a Star Trek specialist, but I've read a bit about several religions. I agree that religion has some pluses. As I've said before, it's a useful cane for people who feel too weak to stand on their own. Unfortunately, once we get out of private life domain into the public life domain, religions get pretty oppressive pretty fast. And what is most sad, is that the victims happily accept their oppression because they believe that's their guarantee to get to Heaven. How twisted is that?

Admittedly I love both Star Trek and Star Wars, and I have learned a lot from debating some of the ethics promoted in each. They are a learning tool in my path, but not necessarily for everyone.


If you ask for help, and receive help it's not necessarily a bad thing. It also doesn't take away from the fact that the person asking for help was able to succeed at the task.


I absolutely agree that as soon as religion gets out of the private life domain it gets really oppressive. I don't have a real good answer for how to work around that either, at least not a universal answer.


My family has a good mix of Christians, Atheists, and other assorted oddballs. One of my more defining moments in religious philosophy was after I left my Church. My Uncle took me to a place called Columcille (Columcille Megalith park in Bangor PA, if you would like to take a look). He told me that as long as my beliefs matched how this park felt, I would be on the right path. I know that may not work on humanity on a whole, but it made a huge impression on me.

P.S.: I'm not a HTML coding specialist either, but you desperately need a crash course on that. [ is used to open a code. ] is used to end a code. Adding extra ones screws up things.
Look at the difference:
[QUOTE=LocusSolace;1168952]text[/quote]
Which without playing with colors comes out as:

And that's what you've been doing:
[QUOTE]=LocusSolace;1168952]text[/quote]
Which without color change comes out as:

I know I need a crash course on HTML. The way I was doing it was the only way that I could get the text boxes to appear, and it looked normal when I previewed the post as well. I'll keep trying to figure it out.


I think maybe I got it this time. Does this look better?

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Mary, thank you for fixing my text boxes, I've been having a lot of trouble learning how to do that.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

Leaving out the supernatural constructs eliminates a way of understanding humanity.

I never said that we should eliminate the study of social constructs about supernatural (=mythology). We just need to realize that study of what people think about the supernatural realm has absolutely nothing with the actual supernatural realm, if such a realm even exists.

It seems like cultures with the more demanding God figures and punishment/reward systems also have had the more demanding existences.

That sounds like a good hypothesis for a potentially important study.

Those that repeat history are doomed to repeat it. I don't think the goal should be to ignore the skeletons in religions closet. They have to be remembered. Perhaps a better goal would be to clean up the ideology and learn from said skeletons; learn to avoid the same mistakes so that history doesn't repeat itself.

I dunno. Christianity in general and Catholic Church specifically -- because of its longevity and spread -- can easily be seen as the most powerful organized crime organization in the history of humankind.

Is that something that can be cleaned? Or should be cleaned?

I absolutely agree that as soon as religion gets out of the private life domain it gets really oppressive. I don't have a real good answer for how to work around that either, at least not a universal answer.

Maybe showing more people that they do not really need their canes?

My Uncle took me to a place called Columcille (Columcille Megalith park in Bangor PA, if you would like to take a look). He told me that as long as my beliefs matched how this park felt, I would be on the right path. I know that may not work on humanity on a whole, but it made a huge impression on me.

I looked it up. I'm usually more impressed by natural beauty than works of humans, but I get what you mean. I have a collection of sunsets, night sky, flowers, animals, and other photos I've take over the years, as my screen saver, and once it launches I just stare at it and forget what the heck I was doing. I don't find anything necessarily supernatural in that beauty, but it certainly has a positive/calming effect on me.

I think maybe I got it this time. Does this look better?

It does. When you are not sure how it will look, feel free to click the "Preview Post" button and then edit accordingly.

Its amazing how many times you perfectly illustrate some of the points made by some of the less religious posters.

One thing I personally appreciate about this particular church, is its honesty. They do not shy away from the ugly majority of the Bible verses, they accept all of it as is. The problem with what they call "cherry pickers" -- those who pick and choose the verses they like and ignore the rest -- is that once you begin to question the validity of parts of the Bible, the whole building of infallibility crumbles down. If a sacred text is Word of God than it has to be 100% true, because if it isn't 100% true then we cannot trust any of it.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

I never said that we should eliminate the study of social constructs about supernatural (=mythology). We just need to realize that study of what people think about the supernatural realm has absolutely nothing with the actual supernatural realm, if such a realm even exists.

True, but it's still another piece in the what is the actual supernatural realm puzzle. Even if the supernatural can absolutely be explained scientifically, it still creates the curiosity necessary to spark that search.

That sounds like a good hypothesis for a potentially important study.

Thanks

I dunno. Christianity in general and Catholic Church specifically -- because of its longevity and spread -- can easily be seen as the most powerful organized crime organization in the history of humankind. Is that something that can be cleaned? Or should be cleaned?

I'm not sure if it's a good idea to be considering what we should or shouldn't be giving up on. It just seems like as soon as we start determining what we should give up on, it starts a moral dilemma that could go very badly. I know that's just my personal opinion (and probably somewhat unrealistic).

Maybe showing more people that they do not really need their canes?

That's not necessarily a bad idea in this context, but it has a potential of being horribly misused. I know that's not your intention, but what if someone else were to really broaden the idea of what canes represented. The last thing we need is for society to be fractured more than what it is already, and yes I know that's not where you were going with it.

I looked it up. I'm usually more impressed by natural beauty than works of humans, but I get what you mean. I have a collection of sunsets, night sky, flowers, animals, and other photos I've take over the years, as my screen saver, and once it launches I just stare at it and forget what the heck I was doing. I don't find anything necessarily supernatural in that beauty, but it certainly has a positive/calming effect on me.

I love that place, it has a positive and calming effect on me as well. I think that was my Uncle's point though, to seek out ideals that have that type of effect.

It does. When you are not sure how it will look, feel free to click the "Preview Post" button and then edit accordingly.

Cool and thanks.

One thing I personally appreciate about this particular church, is its honesty. They do not shy away from the ugly majority of the Bible verses, they accept all of it as is. The problem with what they call "cherry pickers" -- those who pick and choose the verses they like and ignore the rest -- is that once you begin to question the validity of parts of the Bible, the whole building of infallibility crumbles down. If a sacred text is Word of God than it has to be 100% true, because if it isn't 100% true then we cannot trust any of it.

Most older religious texts seem to be equal parts history and teachings. Look at the history of the Bible, especially the number of times it's been translated. There is a joke that does have a certain element of truth.

A new monk arrives at the monastery. He is assigned to help the other monks in copying the old texts by hand. He notices, however, that they are copying copies, and not the original books.
So, the new monk goes to the head monk to ask him about this. He points out that if there was an error in the first copy, that error would be continued in all of the other copies. The head monk says, "We have been copying from the copies for centuries, but you make a good point, my son."
So, he goes down into the cellar with one of the copies to check it against the original. Hours later, nobody has seen him. So, one of the monks goes downstairs to look for him. He hears sobbing coming from the back of the cellar and finds the old monk leaning over one of the original books crying. He asks what's wrong.
"The word is celebrate not celibate," says the old monk with tears in his eyes. http://www.orcca.on.ca/~elena/site/DidacticJokes.html

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Hi All

That's not necessarily a bad idea in this context, but it has a potential of being horribly misused. I know that's not your intention, but what if someone else were to really broaden the idea of what canes represented. The last thing we need is for society to be fractured more than what it is already, and yes I know that's not where you were going with it.

Dear, the last thing America needs is foolish people trying to reinvent the wheel, and poorly at that. You keep looking for some profound insight to explain your life, and yet you ignore the Truth™ that's starting at you in the face all the time. Your duty, the whole entire reason you exist, is to fear and obey the Lord God, King of Kings (Ecclesiastes 12:13). If this is not your entire purpose on earth then our whole faith is a lie, and because Christ was raised after a long weekend of death, I know my faith is True™ (1 Corinthians 15:14).

Think about it, if this weren't the case, then mankind would find the alternative supernatural insight to be as obvious and objectively knowable as the boiling point of water. One would need no faith to observe and quantify the meaning of life. There would be no reason for someone like you to search for the Truth because the Truth would be objectively knowable. Either that, or would be subjectively determined. One might conclude something as silly as "The purpose of your life is to find meaning. When you notice the suffering of others, sympathy drives you to respond. Take the wheel and make that drive count. Take time to enjoy positive experiences in a genuine and sincere way. Share experiences, both good and bad, and even neutral, with others as often as desired. Repeat until the last breath is taken." In either case, one need not pursue foolish pseudo-deep navel-gazing bullshit in order to find contentment. And if contentment is not possible, if indeed the neurologists are right and the way one processes experiences is largely hard wired and out of our direct control, then one would simply do the next right thing. "Don't be a douche. Don't be a wussy" might be that person's motto, their meaning for life.

But that would be foolhardy, because without faith in Christ, your life is wasted. You will suffer untold horrors and never-ending trauma to the body, mind, and soul for all eternity if you reject the fantastic story of Christ's self-parentage, birth, temporary death, resurrection, and ascension through the clouds out into inner space, then through outer space where He sits today, without apparent need of oxygen or pressure as found at sea level on the planet Earth (John 3:18).

[Back against wall]

Re: Hi All

Sister Mary you are so insightful my heart sings when you type. I must agree with you entirely. This has gone on FOREVER! Anyone would think this girl was abused as a child or witnessed her father beat her mother to death or maybe even something traumatic. I mean COME ON! Lets get saved™ already. My eyes are bleeding from the rectum (no thats not a typo)