[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Ah, contradictions… I’d like you to visit “The Heretic Traps” posted by Brother Jeb Thurmond – they are just that.

That is certainly an enlightening discussion, Eziekiel. Thank you for pointing me to it. It will save us all a great deal of time in this thread.

There are too many Christians out there who pick and choose amongst the verses of the Bible.

Trust me, they’re not just “out there.”

There is a “However.”

It wouldn’t be Landover without a however, now would it?

The Bible is the essential Word of God. Clearly the ~6,000 years of the earth since the creation cannot be recorded minute for minute in one book.

So, even had He chosen to do so, God could not have made a Bible that was both brief and complete. I learn something new every hour I spend in here.

There are gaps.

I understand—it’s just like the gaps in the fossil record.

We do not know what Elisha had for breakfast on his birthday.

True, but we can make an educated guess. If there was a plow ox and a book of matches nearby, he probably ate that (the ox, not the matches). Otherwise, I imagine he conjured up some bread or some poisoned gourd porridge.

Christ is never mentioned going to the rest room

That is because Christ never pissed against a wall. If he had pissed against a wall, I am confident we would have heard about it. Which, I guess, is your main point.

So to the heretic traps. Is there any contradiction? Well, the first answer is clearly that there is none.

Ah, but there are contradictions in the Bible that are not Heretic Traps. For example:

2 Samuel 24:24
And the king said unto Araunah, Nay; but I will surely buy it of thee at a price: neither will I offer burnt offerings unto the LORD my God of that which doth cost me nothing. So David bought the threshingfloor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver.

1 Chronicles 20:21-26
Then David said to Ornan, Grant me the place of this threshingfloor, that I may build an altar therein unto the LORD: thou shalt grant it me for the full price: that the plague may be stayed from the people. And Ornan said unto David, Take it to thee, and let my lord the king do that which is good in his eyes: lo, I give thee the oxen also for burnt offerings, and the threshing instruments for wood, and the wheat for the meat offering; I give it all. And king David said to Ornan, Nay; but I will verily buy it for the full price: for I will not take that which is thine for the LORD, nor offer burnt offerings without cost. So David gave to Ornan for the place six hundred shekels of gold by weight.

Now, Jeb Thurmond was well aware of these two passages, and he confirmed that they referred to the same threshingfloor, since he discussed the seeming discrepancy in the amount that King David paid as Heretic Trap #106. But nowhere on the list does he note that David bought the same threshingfloor at the same time from both Araunah and Ornan.

There are many more examples, all of which I hope to cover in some detail in this thread.

The question in your mind – because you are a heretic and not that bright – is “How can both be true?”

Indeed, that was the very question burning within me.

God does not want those who pick and choose what they will read in His Holy Book

Except for the parts that Satan surreptitiously introduced into Proverbs, of course.

But the heretic who merely sips at the fount of knowledge and truth will be caught out – if he knows any answer (unlikely), he will certainly not know more than one.

That’s not really a fair criticism of Bobby-Joe. I was pretty devious with that whole Deepak Chopra business.

Clearly, in this case, Rastus did steal the pie, but that’s by the by

Are you sure that Buckwheat didn’t steal the pie and then try to pin it all on Rastus? In fact, they were probably in cahoots all along. You know how their kind are.

The heretic, the lollygagger, and the smartass will fail the test.

I’m more of a theretic than a heretic, and certainly no lollygagger, but you have me dead to rights on the smartass thing.

there are 2 answers but only one meaning

Hmmm... multiple answers, but only one meaning. You, sir, are a Unitarian!

When a True Christian™, by use of a heretic trap, finds an unsaved person, he will find it his pleasure and duty to instruct the fallen fellow in the hopes of saving his soul. Much as we are doing here for you.

Excellent. Perhaps Joshua can explain Heretic Trap #37 to me. After all, who knows more about praying while in the closet than Joshua?

Discard us and you discard your right to eternal life.

I discard nobody. It is against my religion. But God knows, I have been sorely tempted of late.

Overall, Ezekiel, I must say that you have delivered a powerful message, with a minimum of irreverent digression (except for the parable of Rastus and the pie), and I thank you for that. I will ponder what you have said and use it in my own quest for spiritual enlightenment. In fact, I think I shall deliver a sermon on your take on the Bible on Sunday. Actually, I’ll have to do that, because with all of the time I’ve spent in this thread, I’ve had no time to write a sermon, so this is all I’ve got.

what is your name at that forum? take to become whatever it is you become.

By a strange coincidence, it's the same as your nick on GayProtestantUK.com.

from Satanism to Buddhism to SkyCloudism

SkyCloudism--that's the belief that God paces a lot in Heaven, right? I sometimes lose track.

This is where I would part ways with Unitarian Unicyclism: when superstition is honored, ignorance must lead and folly follows close behind.

Where spirituality and community are dishonored, unhappiness and solitude follow close behind. Nobody has to honor or dishonor any belief in UU. What binds us together is that we honor each other.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Unthinking tolerance for all spiritual points of view is nearly as bad as unthinking intolerance. Neither an individual nor humanity is bettered by honoring superstition and ignorance in the the name of "universal spirituality". This is where I would part ways with Unitarian Unicyclism: when superstition is honored, ignorance must lead and folly follows close behind.

I know UU members who think Wiccan rituals are just the ape's bananas. But if you honor Wicca you are honoring an artifice created by a goonybird named Gerald Gardner in the late 1940s out of whole cloth -- essentially, a superstitious lie.

When superstition is honored, ignorance must lead and folly follows close behind.

Check this . Somewhere in the cloud-strewn glories of Heaven, Jesus is weeping over the willful ignorance of Unitarian Unicyclists.

~~ OEJ

[Justin Bill]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

I never said that UU is a coherent religion. Ours is a Gospel not of cohesion, but of hope, inclusivity, and affirmation. After all, we were created in God's image, and nobody dictated to Him what to believe. That means that I am the only person in UU who believes everything that I believe. But, as my personal hero, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., said, "You and God are a majority."

someone that was a UU minister once desribed the belief system of unitarians in a way that made sense:

"as a unitarian you can believe in everything, except for something"

and "Jesus, nice guy, only begoten son of the lord? ehh... probably not"


Personaly i find UU a little too humanist, I like my apocolpse to have some pizzaz. nothing says apocolypse like the four horseman or revelations.

the idea of a slow enviromental and social disaster created by man that is unstopable is a little too depressing for me, I like the idea of a good reaping of human flesh, where only the most holy of human flesh is dined upon in heaven.

by the way, welcome starr king grad, if you are ever in sonoma county, you can come on over some meat sausage pie.

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Sorry, StarrKing. If that's a cross-section of a UU congregation it sounds more like unfettered stupidity than a coherent religion.

I never said that UU is a coherent religion. Ours is a Gospel not of cohesion, but of hope, inclusivity, and affirmation. After all, we were created in God's image, and nobody dictated to Him what to believe. That means that I am the only person in UU who believes everything that I believe. But, as my personal hero, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., said, "You and God are a majority."

[JennyD]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Just invaded the UU section of the SuperstitionNet forum. Found this:

Good question. The previous posts in the thread boasted of the kinds of superstitious nutcakery the posters were experimenting with, from Satanism to Buddhism to SkyCloudism-with-a-side-of-potato-nuggets.

Sorry, StarrKing. If that's a cross-section of a UU congregation it sounds more like unfettered stupidity than a coherent religion.

~~ OEJ

. . . much like SKG's posts, Brother OEJ? I note that he had no comment regarding your post.

I'd say I was surprised, but God commands us not to lie.

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

You let WICCERANS get near you? You need jesus's help, doncha?-shudder-

We all need Jesus's help.

I tried to warn you with sarcasm. I tried to warn you directly. Run, Cheshire, run, before it is too late!

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

And to claim that you can't answer questions about YOUR faith because someone else of YOUR faith might answer differently?

I can guarantee that others of MY faith will answer differently. We don't have a single text like the Bible or a single representative of God on Earth like your Pastor Deacon Fred, or anything approaching the certitude that you True Christians have--faith comes to us in the form of questions and quandaries. So I cannot provide complete, or even representative, answers to your questions.

Asking me to represent the entire Unitarian community in a matter of faith would be like asking you to answer Biblical questions without considering the Book of Leviticus. If it could be done at all, it would be done badly. Surely you don't want me to pretend to be something that I am not?

If you insist on a single source for answers about our faith, you could do worse than turning to the Ask A Question page on the Unitarian Universalist Association website (if you do ask them, please don't start by asking whether the Holy Ghost exists--they get that one a lot, so they're prepared--and please tell them that the devilishly handsome minister from Berkeley with the glib sense of humor says, "Hi."). Somehow, though, I suspect that their answers will leave you just as unsatisfied as I know that mine would.

I fail to see why the men of this forum bother with you.

Of course you fail to see. You are a woman. That is why women are not permitted to teach the Word.

1 Timothy 2:11-15: ...I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.

I learned that over in the Promise Enforcers forum. So, if you want to chitchat, maybe you could enlighten me as to how your salvation in childbearing is coming along.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Just invaded the UU section of the SuperstitionNet forum. Found this:

After reading this thread, I have to ask what the point is in "changing religions" as frequently as one changes one's underclothes.

Do you actually believe in any of the various deities you worship, rider, or do you just pick up what seems interesting one day, then something else the next? Is it all just a game to you?

How many of those various deities have given commandments to their followers to destroy those who would leave their religion? Do you think this means it's OK with them for you to bounce from cult to cult, like a rabbit on crack?

Is "Unitarian Universalist" actually synonymous with "dilettante"?

Good question. The previous posts in the thread boasted of the kinds of superstitious nutcakery the posters were experimenting with, from Satanism to Buddhism to SkyCloudism-with-a-side-of-potato-nuggets.

Sorry, StarrKing. If that's a cross-section of a UU congregation it sounds more like unfettered stupidity than a coherent religion.

~~ OEJ

[Cheshire]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

And, to be blunt, there's not a lot of that going on around Landover, either.



You don't have to convince me, that's what I just said. Yet another point of agreement!



I did, but the notion is so ridiculous when compared to the ground-truth that I decided to convert back from BBB to UU, where witchcraft is a yes-yes. Many of my parishoners are Wiccans, and they are among the kindest, least selfish people I know. Real salt of the Earth types.



I do, my friend, every day.

You let WICCERANS get near you? You need jesus's help, doncha?-shudder-

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

there is no interpretation, just reading

And, to be blunt, there's not a lot of that going on around Landover, either.

So Saul... enquired not of the LORD

You don't have to convince me, that's what I just said. Yet another point of agreement!

You might consider that witchcraft is a no-no

I did, but the notion is so ridiculous when compared to the ground-truth that I decided to convert back from BBB to UU, where witchcraft is a yes-yes. Many of my parishoners are Wiccans, and they are among the kindest, least selfish people I know. Real salt of the Earth types.

PRAISE THE LORD!

I do, my friend, every day.

[see_the_light]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

No, that's ^ what's known as twisting scripture and quoting it out of context.

I rebuke you, child of Satan!

1 Chronicles 10 does not say that God slew Saul because Saul was not satisfied that God did not answer. 1 Chronicles 10 was very explicit on this point, Saul did not enquire of God. The context you added does not in any way change that plain and simple truth.

You see, the good people at Landover Baptist Church have convinced me that every single word in the Bible is to be taken completely literally, so I can no longer interpret things however I please or for the sake of convenience like the Unitarians and the Catholics and the other athiests do. If the chronicler said Saul did not enquire of God, then Saul did not enquire of God, and none of your sophistic arguments will convince me otherwise. Case closed.

Ok, you are a no minister, just a zitty kid lost in your parents' basement...

there is no interpretation, just reading

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, Which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; And enquired not of the LORD

You might consider that witchcraft is a no-no (at least for non urticarians)

PRAISE THE LORD!

p.s. do insult back if you must, search harder cases if you want, but don't talk of interpretation on direct and simple quotations

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Ah, contradictions… I’d like you to visit “The Heretic Traps” posted by Brother Jeb Thurmond – they are just that. The Landover Baptist Church Ministers and Congregation can help you avoid an eternity of torment in a pit of sulfur but you must open not only your heart but your mind to the Word of The Almighty.

Free thinking is not entirely forbidden – you can choose your meals to an extent, your clothes to an extent, your occupation to an extent and the freedom not to question your betters.

There are too many Christians out there who pick and choose amongst the verses of the Bible. The simple fact is that a True Christian™ will accept that God’s Word is always correct and instructive or be damned forever.

Wishy-washy people, who think parts of the Bible are too violent, too sexy or too restrictive are not Christians. Why would the Almighty Lord God of Hosts give guidance and example and then not bother if people (whom he created) followed that guidance and example?

Christianity is “All or Nothing”. Times change but the Word of the Lord is everlasting and unchanging.

There is a “However.”

The Bible is the essential Word of God. Clearly the ~6,000 years of the earth since the creation cannot be recorded minute for minute in one book. It would be a magnificent and enlightening tome, but it would be far too big. There are gaps. We do not know what Elisha had for breakfast on his birthday. There is no mention of King David brushing his teeth, Christ is never mentioned going to the rest room – yet all must have happened.

Note first that the thread referred to above is headed “FOR TRUE CHRISTIANS™ ONLY!” Well, let me say that you are not a True Christian and therefore cannot be expected to understand the apparent contradictions. It is quite impossible to come here and expect to be an expert merely on the basis of having to re-sit several years at school and cheated to pass exams.

So to the heretic traps. Is there any contradiction? Well, the first answer is clearly that there is none. Let us look at one pair at random that might, to the Unsaved e.g. you, seem to be a contradiction:

God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26

God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19

The question in your mind – because you are a heretic and not that bright – is “How can both be true?”

Well, here God is asking you to fill in the blanks. I told you that not every smallest detail is in the Bible. God does not want those who pick and choose what they will read in His Holy Book – he wants you to read it all – Yes! ALL!

When you have done that, and learned its True Meaning™ the answer will be clear. You will know. But the heretic who merely sips at the fount of knowledge and truth will be caught out – if he knows any answer (unlikely), he will certainly not know more than one.

God, in this “so-called” contradiction is asking you to work it out for yourself. There is only one answer, get it right and a gold star appears in your heavenly records.

See, it’s rather like being a police officer: on Tuesday your informant will say, “Rastus stole the pie.” On Wednesday he will say, “Rastus didn’t steal the pie.” It’s down to you to find the Truth.

(Clearly, in this case, Rastus did steal the pie, but that’s by the by)

The heretic trap is like the lazy detective who will go home saying, “I’ll just say that it wasn’t Rastus, then I won’t have to do any work.” When the real answer is “I need to do more investigation on the case.”

The heretic, the lollygagger, and the smartass will fail the test. The True Christian™ will know the answer: the answer is that it is a trick question designed to catch the unsaved: there are 2 answers but only one meaning.

When a True Christian™, by use of a heretic trap, finds an unsaved person, he will find it his pleasure and duty to instruct the fallen fellow in the hopes of saving his soul. Much as we are doing here for you.

Discard us and you discard your right to eternal life. Accept us and you will see what Truly Good™ people we and you are.

Amen

Bathfire E.

[JennyD]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Oh no, now I must abandon my faith. Perhaps I should become a Unitarian!







How tiresome you are! Is this what they teach in high school debate class these days, to avoid discussions of substance? And to claim that you can't answer questions about YOUR faith because someone else of YOUR faith might answer differently?

I fail to see why the men of this forum bother with you. You're nothing but an "artful dodger".

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Many people don't think about writing on a forum as writing -- that is, they don't consciously think that once you put words onto the screen you are unavoidably creating a fictional character.

Or sometimes two. Or even a trinity.

Jack is slightly out of the norm because he is aware that he is a fictional character, and that gives him some latitude for entertaining antics that someone trying to write "as himself" may not think of using.

Not to mention the latitude to refer to himself in the third-person without feeling at all self-conscious.

I don't know that I'll mess with the UU section of the forum much. My concern is much more with the righteous absolutist and dominionist nature of Christianity, and with denouncing the hideous specter of a rational atheist morality.

There's plenty of rational morality, atheist and otherwise, in the Unitarian Universalist church. That's yet one more reason to throw off the shackles of Joshua's Bendover church and give us a try!

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

[quote=SalvationSeeker;133869]No, that's ^ what's known as twisting scripture and quoting it out of context.[/quoting]

I rebuke you, child of Satan!

1 Chronicles 10 does not say that God slew Saul because Saul was not satisfied that God did not answer. 1 Chronicles 10 was very explicit on this point, Saul did not enquire of God. The context you added does not in any way change that plain and simple truth.

You see, the good people at Landover Baptist Church have convinced me that every single word in the Bible is to be taken completely literally, so I can no longer interpret things however I please or for the sake of convenience like the Unitarians and the Catholics and the other athiests do. If the chronicler said Saul did not enquire of God, then Saul did not enquire of God, and none of your sophistic arguments will convince me otherwise. Case closed.