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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi Jones View Post
That is prior to salvation. Why would John write that and then purposely contradict himself two chapters later.

I offer you 1 John.

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
This is telling us to run from sin. That we should not sin. It does not mean that the sins we indulge in are not sin in the eyes of God.


Quote:
1 John 3 (King James Version)


1 John 3


1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The passage doesn't say sin is not possible, but that we must NOT INDULGE. We must avoid it at all costs.
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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 12:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleDefender View Post
Also, while the Old Testament is often quoted. It is no longer binding.
So when Jesus says that man should live by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God while quoting the Old Testament, He doesn't really mean we should live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Jesus is obviously contradicting Himself.

How is blasphemy working out for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleDefender View Post
Also, by your logic. Since you are an ex-masterbator you looked upon a woman with lust. Just looking upon a woman with lust, is adultery. OT punishment for adultery should be stoning to death. You sir, should be stoned to death based on this.
You can read minds too? Wow, the LORD has truly blessed you.


Christians are superior because we possess an understanding that unbelievers lack. It is through the Power of Jesus only the converted mind is able to understand what is going on in the world; what the Communists are really up to; what Satan's intentions are. Most unbelievers do not even believe in Satan and cannot understand his tactics.



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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 12:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleDefender View Post
The passage doesn't say sin is not possible, but that we must NOT INDULGE. We must avoid it at all costs.
The part you just bolded..

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he (Jesus) is pure.

You haven't refuted anything. You are merely twisting scripture to justify your false doctrine of total depravity. What difficulty are you having with this?

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.


Christians are superior because we possess an understanding that unbelievers lack. It is through the Power of Jesus only the converted mind is able to understand what is going on in the world; what the Communists are really up to; what Satan's intentions are. Most unbelievers do not even believe in Satan and cannot understand his tactics.



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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 12:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleDefender View Post
This is telling us to run from sin. That we should not sin. It does not mean that the sins we indulge in are not sin in the eyes of God.
The passage doesn't say sin is not possible, but that we must NOT INDULGE. We must avoid it at all costs.
Yes, and if we do manage to not sin, and we do not indulge in sin, does that make us sinners or not?
Oh, and as far as the Old Testament goes:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What do you consider to be a good source of information on what the will of Jesus' Father is, if not His Commandments?


O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it--for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.


God being truth, justice, goodness, beauty, power, and life, man is falsehood, iniquity, evil, ugliness, impotence, and death. God being master, man is the slave. Incapable of finding justice, truth, and eternal life by his own effort, he can attain them only through a divine revelation... he who desires to worship God must harbor no childish illusions about the matter, but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity.
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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 12:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi Jones View Post
So when Jesus says that man should live by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God while quoting the Old Testament, He doesn't really mean we should live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
You are misquoting this passage. He says, that you cannot as a Christian live without reading the bible.

Quote:
Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness

1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]” 11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
Quote:
Jesus is obviously contradicting Himself.
No, I just think you need to learn how KJV english works. It is an antquified language, and as such many things have different meanings compared to words of today. Either entirely different or slightly modified.

Quote:
How is blasphemy working out for you?


It does not say, "follow OT laws". To be quite frank, the OT laws have been done away with.

The OT laws addressed the Exterior. The adultery. The NT deals with the interior. The lust. This is why Christ said, if you look upon a woman with lust, you have already committed adultery with her in your heart.
Quote:
You can read minds too? Wow, the LORD has truly blessed you.
It's on your profile, and next to your picture on every post you make.
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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 12:54 AM

I'm still waiting for you to explain whether you think Jesus has the power to wash sins away and keep us from sin. When the Bible says "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him", does that mean that no-one has known Jesus ever?


O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it--for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.


God being truth, justice, goodness, beauty, power, and life, man is falsehood, iniquity, evil, ugliness, impotence, and death. God being master, man is the slave. Incapable of finding justice, truth, and eternal life by his own effort, he can attain them only through a divine revelation... he who desires to worship God must harbor no childish illusions about the matter, but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity.
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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 12:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleDefender View Post
You are misquoting this passage. He says, that you cannot as a Christian live without reading the bible.
Now, live by doesn't actually mean live by. It means we should read it, but not follow it?

And you are saying I don't understand the Bible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleDefender View Post
No, I just think you need to learn how KJV english works. It is an antquified language, and as such many things have different meanings compared to words of today. Either entirely different or slightly modified.
Ah, attack my understanding of the Baskerville English. Let's look and see what other translations say.


New International Version (©1984)
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"New Living Translation (©2007)
But Jesus told him, "No! The Scriptures say, 'People do not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
English Standard Version (©2001)
But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"
International Standard Version (©2008)
But he answered, "It is written, 'One must not live on bread alone, but on every word coming out of the mouth of God.'"
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus answered, "Scripture says, 'A person cannot live on bread alone but on every word that God speaks.'"
American King James Version
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, It is in the Writings, Bread is not man's only need, but every word which comes out of the mouth of God.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God's mouth.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Weymouth New Testament
"It is written," replied Jesus, "'It is not on bread alone that a man shall live, but on whatsoever God shall appoint.'"
World English Bible
But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"
Young's Literal Translation
But he answering said, 'It hath been written, Not upon bread alone doth man live, but upon every word coming forth from the mouth of God.'


But it's my misunderstanding of what Jesus said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleDefender View Post
It does not say, "follow OT laws". To be quite frank, the OT laws have been done away with.
To be quite frank, no they haven't. Let's look at Matthew 5, since you seem to be so keen on quoting it.

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleDefender View Post
It's on your profile, and next to your picture on every post you make.
And I'm telling you, you have no idea what thoughts went through my head. Your assumption that I was looking at a woman with lust in my heart could be completely off base. I would hardly call a few adolescent emergency sessions in the middle of the night as looking at a woman with lust in my heart.


Christians are superior because we possess an understanding that unbelievers lack. It is through the Power of Jesus only the converted mind is able to understand what is going on in the world; what the Communists are really up to; what Satan's intentions are. Most unbelievers do not even believe in Satan and cannot understand his tactics.



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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 01:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi Jones View Post
The part you just bolded..

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he (Jesus) is pure.
Yes, we are to refrain from sin. That does not mean we conquer it. Also, you are not pure and are already tainted with sin.

Quote:
You haven't refuted anything. You are merely twisting scripture to justify your false doctrine of total depravity. What difficulty are you having with this?
There is no twisting of scripture occuring.

As far as total depravity though...


[quote]
  • Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
  • Genesis 8:21: "And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.
  • Job 15:14: What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?
15 Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!
  • Job 25:4-6: How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure? 5 Behold, even the moon is not bright, and the stars are not pure in his eyes; 6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
  • Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
  • Psalms 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."
  • Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."
  • Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."
  • Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
  • Jeremiah 13:23: : "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
  • Isaiah 64:6 "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away"
  • Isaiah 64:7 "There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you, for you have hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities."
  • Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."
  • Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
  • John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."
  • John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"
  • John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
  • John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"
  • Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
  • Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
  • 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
  • Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (our depravity being emphasised in the concept of being "dead"; only something external -i.e. God- can give a dead man life)
  • Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."
Quote:
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
Again, the passage from 1 John 3 is telling us to run from sin. You are reading into the text. You are missing the context of it.


I ask you to look at this.
Quote:
Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

This passage says, you and I are both sinners. We are made righteous through our faith in Christ in addition to our efforts to run from sin. Also, read this.

Quote:
Isaiah 64


1 [a]Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down,
that the mountains would tremble before you!
2 As when fire sets twigs ablaze
and causes water to boil,
come down to make your name known to your enemies
and cause the nations to quake before you!
3 For when you did awesome things that we did not expect,
you came down, and the mountains trembled before you.
4 Since ancient times no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who acts on behalf of those who wait for him.
5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
7 No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and have given us over to[b] our sins. 8 Yet you, LORD, are our Father.
We are the clay, you are the potter;
we are all the work of your hand.
9 Do not be angry beyond measure, LORD;
do not remember our sins forever.
Oh, look on us, we pray,
for we are all your people.
10 Your sacred cities have become a wasteland;
even Zion is a wasteland, Jerusalem a desolation.
11 Our holy and glorious temple, where our ancestors praised you,
has been burned with fire,
and all that we treasured lies in ruins.
12 After all this, LORD, will you hold yourself back?
Will you keep silent and punish us beyond measure?
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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 01:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleDefender View Post
Yes, we are to refrain from sin. That does not mean we conquer it. Also, you are not pure and are already tainted with sin.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

See, I thought of the blood of Jesus Christ as being some pretty powerful stuff. I thought that it had the power to cleanse us from all sin. According to you, I've been misunderstanding all along, and accepting Jesus into your heart is more like giving your soul the spritual equivalent of a quick rub with a manky dishcloth and some generic store-brand washing-up liquid. Is that correct?
Quote:
As far as total depravity though...

  • Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
  • Genesis 8:21: "And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.
  • Job 15:14: What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?
15 Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!
  • Job 25:4-6: How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure? 5 Behold, even the moon is not bright, and the stars are not pure in his eyes; 6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
  • Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
  • Psalms 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."
  • Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."
  • Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."
  • Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
  • Jeremiah 13:23: : "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
  • Isaiah 64:6 "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away"
  • Isaiah 64:7 "There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you, for you have hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities."
  • Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."
Those are all from the Old Testament. You know, that book that you think is a complete irrelevance, and we don't have to pay attention to anymore? Or is it that the parts of the Old Testament that happen to suit what you're saying still contain vital spiritual truths, and it's just the bits you don't like that were nailed to the cross?
Quote:
  • Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
True. No-one's arguing that everyone is inherently lovely, if we were there'd be no need for Jesus' sacrifice. That doesn't mean that Jesus can't change what's in our hearts, does it?
Quote:
  • John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."
Again, it's not talking about Saved Christians. About as relevant as using one of the bits of the OT talking about how naughty the Israelites were to claim that Moses is in Hell.
Quote:
  • John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"
  • John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
  • John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"
Again, the Father has drawn us to Jesus, and we don't commit sin. Your point being?
Quote:
  • Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
  • Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
  • 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
  • Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (our depravity being emphasised in the concept of being "dead"; only something external -i.e. God- can give a dead man life)
  • Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."
Again, we're not claiming that our salvation is intrinsic to ourselves. We know full well that we're saved through God's Grace. That doesn't mean that we're not saved, though. There's a difference between "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another, but now we're saved and things are different because we don't do these things anymore", and ""For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another, then we got saved, but it didn't change anything and we still do all these things because God is completely useless", which is what you seem to be arguing.
Quote:
This passage says, you and I are both sinners. We are made righteous through our faith in Christ in addition to our efforts to run from sin. Also, read this.
You and I were both sinners. I was made righteous through my faith in Christ in addition to my efforts to run from sin. Considering that you seem to be intent on continuing to blaspheme Him and deny the Salvation He offers, I can't really speak for you.

EDITED TO ADD: I don't know what time it is where you are, but it's late where I am, so I really must get to bed now. I shall pray for you in the hopes that Jesus may take pity on you and wash you free of sin, like He did to me and Levi.


O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it--for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.


God being truth, justice, goodness, beauty, power, and life, man is falsehood, iniquity, evil, ugliness, impotence, and death. God being master, man is the slave. Incapable of finding justice, truth, and eternal life by his own effort, he can attain them only through a divine revelation... he who desires to worship God must harbor no childish illusions about the matter, but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity.
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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 01:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleDefender View Post
This passage says, you and I are both sinners. We are made righteous through our faith in Christ in addition to our efforts to run from sin.
Isaiah 64

5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away. [/quote]


Here Isaiah is asking what he thought was a pleading question. The real message is in the question posed before your bolding and in red font by me.

God was listening; the answer, provided by God, was Christ’s sojourn on earth and His promise of Salvation and this is demonstrated in the verse that Brother Levi gave. “Once Saved, Always Saved.”


Seriously, if you are defending the Bible, God will lose. I urge you to be more thoughtful and circumspect in your rash assertions. There are people out there who are extremely gullible. These are our sheep - bring them to safety, and the easiest way is to accept every Word of The Bible.

Joh:1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.





Ec:7:16: Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?

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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 01:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleDefender View Post
Yes, we are to refrain from sin. That does not mean we conquer it. Also, you are not pure and are already tainted with sin.
I'm going to type this slowly for you to understand it. If 1 John 3 says we cannot sin once we are believers in Christ, how can you say that we do?

Does that mean no one has ever known Christ? If so, why even bother trying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleDefender View Post

There is no twisting of scripture occuring.

Again, the passage from 1 John 3 is telling us to run from sin. You are reading into the text. You are missing the context of it.
Where is the word run in this? Where does the term avoid sin come into play here? In false Christian world, I guess words don't mean what they mean.

6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Quote:
  • Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
  • Genesis 8:21: "And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.
  • Job 15:14: What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?
[s]15 Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!
  • Job 25:4-6: How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure? 5 Behold, even the moon is not bright, and the stars are not pure in his eyes; 6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
  • Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
  • Psalms 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."
  • Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."
  • Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."
  • Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
  • Jeremiah 13:23: : "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
  • Isaiah 64:6 "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away"
  • Isaiah 64:7 "There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you, for you have hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities."
  • Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."
This is so typical of a false Christian. They quote the Old Testament when it happens to agree with them, but mock it as the "old covenant" and say we don't have to follow it when they disagree.
Quote:
  • Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
  • John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."
  • John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"
  • John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
  • John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"
  • Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
  • Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
  • 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
  • Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (our depravity being emphasised in the concept of being "dead"; only something external -i.e. God- can give a dead man life)
  • Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."
Every one of these scriptures you post have to do with prior to Salvation.

After Salvation we cannot sin, QED repeatedly.


Quote:
I ask you to look at this.
Quoting Isaiah.

You don't believe in the OT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleDefender View Post
This passage says, you and I are both sinners. We are made righteous through our faith in Christ in addition to our efforts to run from sin. Also, read this.
It says we were sinners. There's a huge difference.


Christians are superior because we possess an understanding that unbelievers lack. It is through the Power of Jesus only the converted mind is able to understand what is going on in the world; what the Communists are really up to; what Satan's intentions are. Most unbelievers do not even believe in Satan and cannot understand his tactics.



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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 01:43 AM

Bible Defender, I suggest you read this before you start with the diarrhea of the mouth.


Christians are superior because we possess an understanding that unbelievers lack. It is through the Power of Jesus only the converted mind is able to understand what is going on in the world; what the Communists are really up to; what Satan's intentions are. Most unbelievers do not even believe in Satan and cannot understand his tactics.



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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 01:43 AM

Face it Pastor, he's just another false Christian who doesn't want to give up his Sin. Like the catholics, he thinks he can sin all week, beg forgiveness on Saturday and everything's cool Sunday morning.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

It sickens me.


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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BelieverInGod View Post
Face it Pastor, he's just another false Christian who doesn't want to give up his Sin. Like the catholics, he thinks he can sin all week, beg forgiveness on Saturday and everything's cool Sunday morning.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

It sickens me.
It's crazy. Some Cathylicker can go to some male pedophile in a dress and get "absolution" HA!



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Default Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment - 01-07-2011, 10:59 PM

Bible Defender, if you want to come up with a proper Scripturally-based reply to any of the points we made, I'd be happy to see it. Your interpretation of the Bible is hideously flawed, but I respect your ability to hold a civilised conversation, so please feel free to continue defending your heresy.


O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it--for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.


God being truth, justice, goodness, beauty, power, and life, man is falsehood, iniquity, evil, ugliness, impotence, and death. God being master, man is the slave. Incapable of finding justice, truth, and eternal life by his own effort, he can attain them only through a divine revelation... he who desires to worship God must harbor no childish illusions about the matter, but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity.
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