[epignosis]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

That, my polychromatic friend, is exactly the reason why we rely on God's assurances, stated in the Bible verses that we've been quoting, that True Christians™ are perfect. We do not have to declare ourselves perfect, since God has already done so.

Romans 3:10 (King James Version)

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

So on what basis do you consider you are perfect? What about other Christian religions? Are they also perfect? Is everyone that is a Baptist are they all perfect?

1 Corinthians 9:27 (King James Version)

27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

No man can declare himself righteous or perfect. Since God alone can declare a man righteous, attempts to prove oneself righteous on the basis of one’s own merit or by acceptance of the judgment of others as to one’s righteousness are of no value. Job was reproved because, though not charging God with any wrong, he was “declaring his own soul righteous rather than God.”

So to say you are righteous or perfect is not our place. And you can not declare someone else righteous. That is against what the scriptures are all about. What that is, is judging for God, and we don't have the right to do that.

That, my polychromatic friend, is exactly the reason why we rely on God's assurances, stated in the Bible verses that we've been quoting, that True Christians™ are perfect. We do not have to declare ourselves perfect, since God has already done so.

[epignosis]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

Wrong. Paul tells us that everyone either went to hell or nothingness, by your definition.
Romans 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

How could Adam have been perfect if he went to hell?

The sin Adam did was of disloyalty. He was perfect in mind and body. He lacked nothing. There is no indication that the tree that he was not to eat from was different in any way from others. So there was no need of anything.
Adam had direct dealings with God, he knew who he was and what he did.

1 Timothy 2:14 (King James Version)

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

So Adam knew what he was doing, but Eve was deceived.

So what Adam actually did was side with Eve over God. He was disloyal to God. It was no minor matter.
( today for us we have all sorts of things to deal with , we have to make a living, we get old, we tire out, we do dumb things we make mistakes, we don't think like God, etc.) We have no choice to be like that because of our imperfection, from Adam. So God makes allowances for us. He calls us perfect because we try to do what is right, even though we have no chance of doing things correctly. ( as a perfect person could).
Adam was perfect, he had ( like the angels and man ) the choice of free will. He was able to choose to be loyal or not. This makes us different than a programmed robot. Or instinct in a dog.
God wanted his creation, to want to follow him because they loved him. Not because he had no choice. And he also expects loyalty.
That is why Adams sin was not forgiveable . It didn't come from weakness. Adam was capable of remaining loyal to God.

That is also why Jesus was the only one that could redeem mankind. It had to be a perfect creation that could buy back the perfect life lost. With the same temptation of loyalty.
In the garden of Eden God said to Adam

Genesis 2:13-17 (King James Version)



16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So the penalty for Adam being disloyal to God was that Adam would die. ( it doesn't say he would be tortured forever. No!) But what it says is, he would die.
That is , he would return to the dust from where he came. There was no after life , or anything like that mentioned. Adam knew what death was , he could see the animals die.

[Pastor William Nathaniel Sampson]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

Actually Adam was perfect, that is why Jesus was needed to be the ransom. A perfect life for a perfect life.
That is also why Adam did not need Jesus as a ransom. Adam dealt directly with God, because he was perfect. We are not perfect, we need Jesus as the ransom, and we can not go directly to God. But have Jesus as the mediator.

Wrong. Paul tells us that everyone either went to hell or nothingness, by your definition.
Romans 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

How could Adam have been perfect if he went to hell?

[epignosis]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

There was nothing wrong with Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45 (King James Version)

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Genesis 1:25-39 (King James Version)

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


The last Adam is Jesus. They are compared

1 Corinthians 15:45 (King James Version)

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit

Adam and Jesus are compared. That is why Jesus was a corresponding ransom for Adam.



No man can declare himself righteous or perfect. Since God alone can declare a man righteous, attempts to prove oneself righteous on the basis of one’s own merit or by acceptance of the judgment of others as to one’s righteousness are of no value. Job was reproved because, though not charging God with any wrong, he was “declaring his own soul righteous rather than God.”

So to say you are righteous or perfect is not our place. And you can not declare someone else righteous. That is against what the scriptures are all about. What that is, is judging for God, and we don't have the right to do that.

[Jedediah]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

Those are glorious verses of Scripture indeed, but they do not support your un-Biblical assertions. Did I miss the verse where Adam, who was ejected from Eden because of his sin, is declared perfect? Or is this just something you picked up from a marihuana-huffing universal unitarian "pastor" and took his word for it rather than seeking verification from the Holy Bible?

I am not saying I was born perfect. Quite the contrary (Psalm 51:5, Romans 3:23, etc). Potential Christians go to hell every day because they died before accepting Jesus. However, Scripture exhorts me to be perfect, and as one who has had his sins washed away by the BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST and keeps His Commandments to the letter, I am assured by the Word of my present and future state of perfection.

Nobody here is asserting that we have always been perfect. Scripture tells us that is clearly not the case. However, we are presently, and will continue to be for all eternity, made perfect in Christ Jesus who died for my sins on the Cross.

[epignosis]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

Actually Adam was perfect, that is why Jesus was needed to be the ransom. A perfect life for a perfect life.
That is also why Adam did not need Jesus as a ransom. Adam dealt directly with God, because he was perfect. We are not perfect, we need Jesus as the ransom, and we can not go directly to God. But have Jesus as the mediator.

John 14:4-8 (King James Version)

4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


1 Timothy 2 (King James Version)

1 Timothy 2

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Adam did not need this mediator, because he was perfect He was directly created by God. Where as we are all sinful because of the sin of Adam. We inherited sin. Adam didn't.
As long as we need Jesus as our mediator, we are not perfect.

[Jedediah]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

Of course I am perfect, just as Jesus exhorts me to be (Matthew 5:48). That is why, after having my previous sins washed away by His Blood, I am now incapable of committing sin.

I John 3:6-9
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Have you even bothered to read this thread? It's all laid out very matter-of-factly precisely so we don't have to continually extol our own virtues, righteousness and perfection every time someone likes you comes here asking questions which have been asked many times before.

Adam died a sinner and never had the opportunity to accept Jesus as his Savior. Adam was not perfect. So if you are asking whether I am more like Jesus or Adam, it is pretty obvious that I am indeed more Christ-like. This must seem like a strange concept to someone who doesn't follow the entire Bible, but I would direct you to the following verses of Scripture, particularly I Peter 4:4, which tells us to expect those like you who scoff at our perfection.

I Peter 4:1-5
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

[epignosis]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

I often take the perfection of myself and my brothers and sisters in Christ for granted, but I suppose not everyone is so fortunate as to live among a community of Bible-believing, God-fearing, Covenant-keeping, Spirit-filled True Christians™ who not only read the Holy Bible, but follow Its every Word to the letter. But I guess this radical, amazing concept would be interesting to one such as you who only follows Christ half-heartedly.

Deuteronomy 18:13
Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

I Kings 8:61
Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

II Chronicles 19:9
And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart.

Psalm 18:32
It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.

Psalm 101:2
I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

John 17:23-24
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

II Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

II Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

II Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

I exhort you to take your faith more seriously, friend. Being a True Christian™ requires total fidelity to God's Word, being ON FIRE with the Holy Spirit! It's not just a matter of raising your hand or checking the right box on a questionnaire. If you cherry-pick which verses of Scripture you will heed, and if you are tepid in your faith, Jesus will turn His back on you as you are presently turning your back of Him. Here are some verses of Scripture that seem particularly relevant to your flaccid, tepid approach to Salvation™. Please reflect on these verses very carefully. My family and I will pray for you.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Revelation 3:15-16
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

My question is then , do you feel you are perfect like Jesus, or Adam?

[Jedediah]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

Actually, I was not interested in derailing the thread. I thought it was kind of interesting, that someone would say they are perfect.

I often take the perfection of myself and my brothers and sisters in Christ for granted, but I suppose not everyone is so fortunate as to live among a community of Bible-believing, God-fearing, Covenant-keeping, Spirit-filled True Christians™ who not only read the Holy Bible, but follow Its every Word to the letter. But I guess this radical, amazing concept would be interesting to one such as you who only follows Christ half-heartedly.

Deuteronomy 18:13
Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

I Kings 8:61
Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

II Chronicles 19:9
And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart.

Psalm 18:32
It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.

Psalm 101:2
I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

John 17:23-24
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

II Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

II Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

II Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

I exhort you to take your faith more seriously, friend. Being a True Christian™ requires total fidelity to God's Word, being ON FIRE with the Holy Spirit! It's not just a matter of raising your hand or checking the right box on a questionnaire. If you cherry-pick which verses of Scripture you will heed, and if you are tepid in your faith, Jesus will turn His back on you as you are presently turning your back of Him. Here are some verses of Scripture that seem particularly relevant to your flaccid, tepid approach to Salvation™. Please reflect on these verses very carefully. My family and I will pray for you.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Revelation 3:15-16
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

[epignosis]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

Do you understand any of the Bible verses that we've been applying in this entire thread? Now kindly quit trying to derail this thread .

Actually, I was not interested in derailing the thread. I thought it was kind of interesting, that someone would say they are perfect.

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

Do understand the book of Revelation?

Do you understand any of the Bible verses that we've been applying in this entire thread? Now kindly quit trying to derail this thread .

[epignosis]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

When I listened, here's what I heard:

Ephesians 3:3-4: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

We just have to read and understand.

Do understand the book of Revelation?

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

Actually the scriptures did the talking I just listened!

When I listened, here's what I heard:

Ephesians 3:3-4: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

We just have to read and understand.

[epignosis]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

Really? And here I thought that it meant at the end times that knowledge shall be increased, but people would run too and fro looking for God. Not sure where you got your "interpretation".

Scientists brag about how our "knowlege" has exponentianally risen since the start of the industrial revolution, yet you see people clinging to more and more false religions and false translations. Sort of like you.


Wow, are you into Yoga? Because I've never seen anyone who can twist and turn like you can.

Yes in the end times (i.e. now) very very few "christians" follow the Bible. Instead they play word games with it. Like you they sit there and say "well what it really means". As a child I upset a false pastor so badly with my "well what about this part?", "where does the Bible say that?" and "well if you read it in context, it means" that he told me that reading the entire Bible was a sin because I didn't have the magic "discretion" goggles.

Seems that you're trying to tell me the exact same thing.

Actually the scriptures did the talking I just listened!