True Christians are Perfect!

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

To say that 'in the blood of Christ I am cleansed', then I agree. However saying simply 'I have no sin' comes across in a manner that it appears that we don't need Christ to save us. The latter would be false, and would be denying the divinity of God.

Thank you for that straw man. The point we've been trying to make, and the one that Scripture backs, is that we do not sin precisely because of God's saving power.

Murder is usually defined as the taking of innocent life (innocent in the case of non-combat, as you would be hard-pressed to find 'innocent' people in those times).

Where did you get that from? According to Black's Law Dictionary, murder is the "unlawful killing of a human being by another with malice aforethought, either express or implied." The word "unlawful" is rather important in discussing whether it's murder to obey God's command.

[Sword of the Spirit]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

Rather than 'Christian's cannot sin' I believe that 'Christians should not sin'. My reasoning? I can still physically contradict any of the ten commandments. That would be sin, correct?

As for John 7:24, what ARE you judging by? If you see a woman in black walking down the street late at night, or perhaps someone walking out of a Mormon temple, what is the first thing that you think? (more on this is you quote this)

To say that 'in the blood of Christ I am cleansed', then I agree. However saying simply 'I have no sin' comes across in a manner that it appears that we don't need Christ to save us. The latter would be false, and would be denying the divinity of God.

As for the ten commandments, and other laws, I heard something that made sense and seemed to run with scripture; the law was given to show man how sinful he was, and how much he needed a saviour, because whether or not we knew we sinned, we were swimming in sin 'for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God'. I totally agree that we should keep it, as it defined sin, but I don't think that it should be limited there. If that makes sense

Murder is usually defined as the taking of innocent life (innocent in the case of non-combat, as you would be hard-pressed to find 'innocent' people in those times). However, now that we can save those people whose blood we 'wish' to spill, it really does become murder.

"Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other"

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

As with the matter of the rapist, I don't really see how it would be a punishment.

Why not? The rapist clearly had no intentions of marrying otherwise he would not have raped. And he is never allowed to divorce her, ever.

Perhaps this is simply another way at looking at a half-full glass, but please explain this more to me.

It doesn't matter how you feel about what is in the Bible of how you look at it. You just have to follow it, to the letter.

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

I'll take you on right here. However, I'll do it in a respectful way, without throwing insult or trying to cause disrespect. I expect the same, if you really are Christians.

If you've ever sinned, raise your hand. If anyone is not raising their hand, you have just lied, and lying would be a sin, therefore proving my point. It is nearly impossible to never have sinned.

There is a difference between having sinned and sinning now. Verbs have perfect and imperfect aspects for a reason. Once we are born again, we no longer sin:

1 John 5:18: We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Here's one for the record. Jesus said that anyone who was mad at his brother had already committed murder. Let me simplify this: If you've ever been aggressively angry or murderous to anyone; gays, muslims, mormons, whatever, you've sinned. It is impossible for someone to never sin.

We're not aggressively angry. We simply judge righteous judgment, as God commands:

John 7:24: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

To say that you are "without sin" makes you equal with God.

No, it doesn't. It just means that we rely on the Lord's promise in 1 John.

That is blasphemy.

It's blasphemy to believe what God tells us?

As for your actual beliefs, you can't possibly keep the scripture down to the letter, because there would be a great deal less people in the United States.

Then why did God give it to us?

Here's a question for you; if God said not to murder, why did He have the Israelites kill hundreds of thousands of people? And don't simply say that "He wanted to". That won't suffice, because the answer is a fall-back, and isn't actually a retort.

It's not murder when God commands it. What do you think "murder" is?

I came across a disturbing thread while I was reading on this site. It stated that you people believe that if a woman is raped, that she MUST marry her rapist. This is one of your many examples of things in the Bible that were written for a certain time, and apply to a certain time.

Care to back that up with Scripture? Certain laws were fulfilled by Jesus, like animal sacrifice, but otherwise, He said this:

Matt. 5:17-18: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

As for the women remaining silent in the churches, again we must think as to the setting. Back in the days of Paul, women were often uneducated and weren't trained for intelligent discussion. Also, the churches were divided up with men on one half, and women on the other. Paul wrote this because women were speaking up in the middle of service (which were crudely organized) and spouting the first thing that woman had on her mind. This disrupted others and caused chaos. Likewise 'they should ask there own husbands at home', was dated because since the churches were divided up male/female, the uneducated women would rush over to their husband's every time they had a question that they wanted answered, thus creating more confusion.

You're contradicting Scripture:

1 Tim. 2:12-15: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

I think the biggest issue lies in the question of 'why' to each one of God's commands. He gives them to us for a reason, not just because he felt like it. He wants us to live in harmony with each other, and these laws simply help out. Many of the laws in Leviticus actually were scientifically proven to have been healthier in that time period. If we ask "Why should we not murder" we will find an answer that is somewhat like; because what makes you above your fellow man that God loves?

You're doing the opposite of what Scripture commands:

Proverbs 3:5-6: Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Note: Although I may have pointed a few things out, I didn't call names, make slurs or preform any ad hominem attacks. I expect the same, as it says in the scripture.

Please provide a citation.

[Sword of the Spirit]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

Yes, I would say that he cleansed us, but it is possible to dirty our hands again. I know that having blood on my hands would sure dirty my conscience.

As for killing people, as you stated, having people with different beliefs among God's people could convince them to turn away from the truth and embrace something else. I believe (although there is absolutely nothing to back this) that if they had not been killed, there would have been nowhere these other Israelites could go that they would be accepted, and it is possible that they might eventually be accepted back to poison the minds of people.

As with the matter of the rapist, I don't really see how it would be a punishment. It means that they would get the woman that they raped (who they probably attacked for physical reasons, or feelings of domination) placed into a position of submission to them so various 'married' activities become commonplace.

Perhaps this is simply another way at looking at a half-full glass, but please explain this more to me.

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

If you've ever sinned, raise your hand. If anyone is not raising their hand, you have just lied, and lying would be a sin, therefore proving my point. It is nearly impossible to never have sinned.

While this is true I am also free of sin:

• 1st John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
  
• Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood"
• 1st John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Let me simplify this: If you've ever been aggressively angry or murderous to anyone; gays, muslims, mormons, whatever, you've sinned.

You are mistaken. God actually commands us to kill unbelievers, including women and children: 2nd Chronicles 15:13 "That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."

As for your actual beliefs, you can't possibly keep the scripture down to the letter

Of course you can, I do it all the time.

I came across a disturbing thread while I was reading on this site. It stated that you people believe that if a woman is raped, that she MUST marry her rapist. This is one of your many examples of things in the Bible that were written for a certain time, and apply to a certain time.

Nonsense, if that would be true, the Bible would have mentioned that. You are just looking for excuses to ignore the parts of the Holy Bible that you don't like. That is not how it works!

I simply have to rape her, because apparently 'it isn't the rapist's fault

You don't seem to get Deuteronomy 22:28-29 at all. Forcing the rapist to marry his victim is punishment for the rapist!

[Sword of the Spirit]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

I'll take you on right here. However, I'll do it in a respectful way, without throwing insult or trying to cause disrespect. I expect the same, if you really are Christians.

If you've ever sinned, raise your hand. If anyone is not raising their hand, you have just lied, and lying would be a sin, therefore proving my point. It is nearly impossible to never have sinned.

Here's one for the record. Jesus said that anyone who was mad at his brother had already committed murder. Let me simplify this: If you've ever been aggressively angry or murderous to anyone; gays, muslims, mormons, whatever, you've sinned. It is impossible for someone to never sin.

To say that you are "without sin" makes you equal with God. That is blasphemy. There is not one person on this Earth who has ever sinned, and there is not one person that Jesus doesn't want to save. Remember the verse John 8:7? The verses after that state that the people began to leave, the older ones first (the wisest of the people), until all were gone. Keep in mind these are the people that studied the scriptures (The Bible) intently, and kept it down to the letter. I hope this sounds painfully familiar.

As for your actual beliefs, you can't possibly keep the scripture down to the letter, because there would be a great deal less people in the United States. Here's a question for you; if God said not to murder, why did He have the Israelites kill hundreds of thousands of people? And don't simply say that "He wanted to". That won't suffice, because the answer is a fall-back, and isn't actually a retort.

I came across a disturbing thread while I was reading on this site. It stated that you people believe that if a woman is raped, that she MUST marry her rapist. This is one of your many examples of things in the Bible that were written for a certain time, and apply to a certain time. Another example is that women must remain silent in the churches. Why, I'll explain that next.

Back in the time when the law "a rapist must marry his victim", women were almost exclusively valued based on their virginity. All of the virgins back then would have been unmarried, so the rape of one would be the rape of the unmarried. In this time, if a woman was a non-virgin and unmarried, her life would be ruined, as no man would marry a woman who was not a virgin, and women did not work in that time. By having a rapist marry his victim, it would ensure that the victim was taken care of in life, although it is unfortunate.

Before you spout at me, consider this; Imagine I, or even worse, a Muslim raped your daughter. Unless you are hypocrites, you would then force your daughter to marry her rapist, correct? Think about this for a moment. What would become of your daughter? Most likely she would become abused, depressed, and would drift from God. This would be an absolutely horrible thing, and it implies that if I want to marry a women, I simply have to rape her, because apparently 'it isn't the rapist's fault, the woman shouldn't have presented herself like that'. Say you wouldn't let her? That would be a double standard, meaning that you would be hypocritical.

As for the women remaining silent in the churches, again we must think as to the setting. Back in the days of Paul, women were often uneducated and weren't trained for intelligent discussion. Also, the churches were divided up with men on one half, and women on the other. Paul wrote this because women were speaking up in the middle of service (which were crudely organized) and spouting the first thing that woman had on her mind. This disrupted others and caused chaos. Likewise 'they should ask there own husbands at home', was dated because since the churches were divided up male/female, the uneducated women would rush over to their husband's every time they had a question that they wanted answered, thus creating more confusion.

I think the biggest issue lies in the question of 'why' to each one of God's commands. He gives them to us for a reason, not just because he felt like it. He wants us to live in harmony with each other, and these laws simply help out. Many of the laws in Leviticus actually were scientifically proven to have been healthier in that time period. If we ask "Why should we not murder" we will find an answer that is somewhat like; because what makes you above your fellow man that God loves?

Note: Although I may have pointed a few things out, I didn't call names, make slurs or preform any ad hominem attacks. I expect the same, as it says in the scripture.

SWORD OF THE SPIRIT

[Halleluyah Rob]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

This'll show those atheists who think they can stand against a True Christian™ in debate.

Our infallible Godly knowledge can not be refuted. Praise!

[Dirk]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

You only need the KJV1611 Bible for perfection.

[Oakland "Reb" Griner]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

The Perfect Word:

The King James Bible



The Perfect Faith:

Landover Baptist Church



The Perfect People:

True Christians(R)




I am practically weeping with religious joy at our Salvation(c) !!

Praise GOD!!

[True Disciple]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

I would also like to add to this excellent piece of witnessing the fact that, as perfect people, our judgment is infallible, and that we can't possibly be wrong about anything whatsoever.

Let's take a look at the Second Epistle to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 2:10-11:
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

We have received the Holy Spirit, which searches all things, even the deep things of God. In other words, we know what we're saying!

1 Corinthians 2:12-13:
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

As we are spiritual, our level of understanding is at a fundamentally higher level than that of the unsaved. We are able to compare spiritual things.

1 Corinthians 2:14:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If anyone disagrees with us, that is just a result of that person being spiritually discerned, as he cannot understand the things which are of God.

1 Corinthians 2:15:
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

As spiritual people, God has granted us the right to judge the unsaved.

1 Corinthians 2:16:
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

And this is the most important one: We have the Mind of Christ. So, if anyone disagrees with us, this automatically means he disagrees with Christ. As people with the Mind of Christ, we are right about everything by definition!

[Jedediah]

Re: True Christians are Perfect!

Amen, Brother! False Christians constantly come here and quote John 8:7 to us, thinking that they are making some sort of profound point.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

In this verse, Jesus is speaking to unsaved trash who have not accepted Him as their LORD and Savior. At that time, He had not yet died (temporarily) on the Cross, so it was not possible for any to be washed in His Blood at that period in history.

Today, we True Christians™ who worship Him and glorify Him by following - unquestioningly - every letter of His Word as given in the Holy Bible (KJV 1611) are without sin, as the Scripture you gave above illustrates!

Therefore, if anyone is to "cast the first stone" and judge in righteous judgment, it is us - the perfect children of God. Praise!

[Levi Jones]

I get so tired of false Christians and atheists claiming we are not.

In fact, the Bible more often preaches on perfection and holiness than the idea that we are all worthless sinners.
Psalm 119:1-4 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.

Here God tells Abraham that perfection is achievable.

Genesis 17:1 I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

I can hear some panties getting into a twist over these scriptures. Perhaps you think, that's Old Testament. The Bible says, "for all have sinned." That was prior to our Salvation. I would like to draw your attention to:

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

How could we not be perfect if Jesus himself admonishes us to be perfect?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

In the Book of Luke, Jesus tells us that in becoming perfect, we are like God.

Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

In many of the Epistles, the authors tell us that we are perfect and can be unblameable in holiness, free from sin and a new creation as our Master Who is in Heaven wants us to be.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ephesians 4:22-24, 26
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Romans 6:20-23 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

And most importantly,

1 John 3:5-9 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

And here is another

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

I don't know about you, but I feel pretty darn good knowing I am PERFECT without sin or blemish. I can't wait until we sit on the right hand of God himself and judge the world come rapture time, my perfect brothers and sisters.

No one was perfect except Jesus!

Wrong! I wanted to add a list of a few perfect people in the Bible besides Jesus for those you who don't believe there was anyone else who was ever perfect.

Luke 1:5-6 THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

God speaking to Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

David speaking to God.

Psalm 101:2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.

And

2 Samuel 22:22-24 For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
For all his judgments were before me: and as for his statutes, I did not depart from them.
I was also upright before him, and have kept myself from mine iniquity.

Perhaps you don't think the New Testament word rendered as perfect actually means perfect.

Maybe you think it means mature? Then this section is for you. Perfect in the New Testament is τέλειος teleios. Some say this means mature. Some modern translations even render it as such in some parts of the Bible. But then when it comes to these verses, teleios suddenly means perfect again.

Romans 12:2.
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.

Does that mean God's will is "mature?" Of course not. It's the same Greek word teleios.

See Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Again, it's the same Greek word telios. I seriously doubt you would call Jesus a mature tabernacle, would you?
Could it be that the translators of the newer translations are pressured into accepting Calvinist doctrine on total depravity?
I'll let you be the judge.