[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

Besides how can anyone here know and prove that they're right? When all you have is a book written by many authors in a span of 100s of years with different cultures and societal expectations. It's not like god written the book himself and dropped it someone's head one day. It was written passed through many authors then rewritten again for the many branches of Christianity to suit their needs at the time.

Hello Miss Megan. I agree with you. Large chunks of the Old Testament have been copied from older Mesopotamian sources. The creation story is clearly based on Enuma Elish. The Flood story is a revamped version of Gilgamesh. Story of Moses is modeled after the biography of Sargon the Great - the basket in the river and all. The Old Testament laws were modeled after the Ur-Nammu and later Hammurabi law codes - which was possibly copied from Urukagina's, but that text didn't survive.


Moving on to the New Testament, the whole die-for-your-sins idea is clearly a reheated Osiris story, and John's gospel is so Gnostic it's truly surprising that it was not thrown to the Apocrypha pile when the canon of the Bible was being decided.


I wish humanity invented writing earlier than it did. Then, maybe we could trace the religion lineage all the way to the oldest temple on earth, and understand the evolution of religions better.

For all I know all us could be all wrong...and we could be worshipping some flying spaghetti monster in the sky. I guess when you feel like you're right it reeks of some arrogance because how do you an earthly man claim to know God's intent when god is above you and thus has a final say?

Exactly. Maybe this lovely community is correct, but maybe they are wrong and the Baha'i are correct. Or maybe the Suhrawardiyya Sufi Muslims are the ones who got it right, and everyone else is wrong. Or maybe only some random shamanistic Siberian tribe is right. Or maybe all religions are wrong and have been invented to bring comfort for in times of suffering, and to keep masses in control of the elites?

I'd like to believe him a loving and merciful father of his own creation who weeps for his lost wayward children. Because if we are the image of him surely god can feel sadness and have mercy.

This is a very interesting vision. A god weeping when people kill each other in his name. Tell me, does he not interfere in all of these mass murders because he can't, or because he doesn't want to - he prefers weeping over action?

It's okay to believe in things but when it comes to knowing what god is going to do is pure arrogance when you're only mere speck in his creation.

True. We are just lab rats in God's laboratory. He doesn't care about individual rats, He's just observing an experiment.

...Of course, then I remember Hell and I'm afraid I'm going there for my heretic thoughts.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

I got as far as your first hyphen. Why would any Christian be interested in reading about the very savages against whom Jesus struggled to preserve the line so that He could be born? Sargon was a wanton idolator. What does God call such people? Harlots. How does God describe their cultures and societies? Whoredom.

HOSEA 4 .KJV . whole chapter
1 Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land..
12 My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.
14b They sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall.

How do we know Sargon even existed at all?

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

I got as far as your first hyphen. Why would any Christian be interested in reading about the very savages against whom Jesus struggled to preserve the line so that He could be born? Sargon was a wanton idolator. What does God call such people? Harlots. How does God describe their cultures and societies? Whoredom.

Indeed Miss Mitza. The Bible depicts great civilizations of Mesopotamia in a very negative way, underscoring all of the differences - probably because ancient Israelites were inclined to focus on the similarities deriving from common ethnic/cultural/linguistic descent. I humbly accept your critique; I should not have questioned the originality of the Bible on a Christian forum. I suppose the opposite is possible, too, that the older Sumerian/Babylonian sources have plagiarized the Bible before the Bible was written down. And this latter explanation definitely fits better within Christian paradigm.

[GaleWhoring the Boring (On Moderation)]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

I got as far as your first hyphen. Why would any Christian be interested in reading about the very savages against whom Jesus struggled to preserve the line so that He could be born? Sargon was a wanton idolator. What does God call such people? Harlots. How does God describe their cultures and societies? Whoredom.

HOSEA 4 .KJV . whole chapter
1 Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land..
12 My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.
14b They sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall.

How do we know Sargon even existed at all?

I thought Sargon was a character from Lord of the Rings? Does this mean Tolkien plagiarized from the Bible too? I suppose there are some similarities.

[Megan1993]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

Hello Miss Megan. I agree with you. Large chunks of the Old Testament have been copied from older Mesopotamian sources. The creation story is clearly based on Enuma Elish. The Flood story is a revamped version of Gilgamesh. Story of Moses is modeled after the biography of Sargon the Great - the basket in the river and all. The Old Testament laws were modeled after the Ur-Nammu and later Hammurabi law codes - which was possibly copied from Urukagina's, but that text didn't survive.


Moving on to the New Testament, the whole die-for-your-sins idea is clearly a reheated Osiris story, and John's gospel is so Gnostic it's truly surprising that it was not thrown to the Apocrypha pile when the canon of the Bible was being decided.


I wish humanity invented writing earlier than it did. Then, maybe we could trace the religion lineage all the way to the oldest temple on earth, and understand the evolution of religions better.

Exactly. Maybe this lovely community is correct, but maybe they are wrong and the Baha'i are correct. Or maybe the Suhrawardiyya Sufi Muslims are the ones who got it right, and everyone else is wrong. Or maybe only some random shamanistic Siberian tribe is right. Or maybe all religions are wrong and have been invented to bring comfort for in times of suffering, and to keep masses in control of the elites?

This is a very interesting vision. A god weeping when people kill each other in his name. Tell me, does he not interfere in all of these mass murders because he can't, or because he doesn't want to - he prefers weeping over action?

True. We are just lab rats in God's laboratory. He doesn't care about individual rats, He's just observing an experiment.

...Of course, then I remember Hell and I'm afraid I'm going there for my heretic thoughts.

Because if God has endowed us with free will wouldn't him intervening undermine the freewill he intended us to have?

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

Because if God has endowed us with free will wouldn't him intervening undermine the freewill he intended us to have?

Dear Megan, the Bible says that God creates evil.He doesn't has to create evil. He just creates it.


God is merciful, to those who kneel to Him. He has chosen that way. He created the world, He owns it, so He does as He pleases.


His choice is to make unbelievers and then make them suffer. Odd choice, but we owe Him our lives, so we got to do everything we can to please Him.


I have always wondered what happens in Heaven, if you do something that displeases the Lord. Will He cast you to Hell? Or is like a one time test, once you are in you never get out? My guess is just hypothetical, because we are so few that go into Heaven that obviously we know what pleases and displeases the Lord.
I always imagine myself going to talk with the ancestors, talking about how much we dislike the Jebusites and how much we like Jacob and how we hate Esau. And I imagine God smiling pleased by our conversations.


Of course, there is a reason why you and me cannot be gods. For example, I will chose to make people disappear instead of an eternity of suffering. An eternity is a lot of time, an people there in Hell maybe never heard about you, because you choose not to send a missionnaire there.
Or maybe they wore mixed fabric one day and forgot to repent. Or they sold their birthright because they were hungry.
Keeping them suffering a bazillion years is not enough, let's keep them for the eternity! Sounds harsh.
Then I remember God created the cows and gave us dominion over them so we can have barbeques, and smile, and thank, and pray without ceasing!

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

Because if God has endowed us with free will wouldn't him intervening undermine the freewill he intended us to have?

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of just how powerful Jesus is. If He wants to prevent someone from exercising their Free Will, like say the Pharaoh of old (Exodus 9:12), then He does so and no one can stop Him and it's perfectly perfect and good because He is Perfect and Good. If He wants to make reality such that we simultaneously have Free Will and have no Free Will, then that is reality because no one can stop Him and no one can change His Rules. In fact, the disciple John records just such a reality when Christ explains Salvation and our participation in such a Divine Event. We choose it, and yet Christ chooses for us (John 3:16;John 15:16). This is only because Jesus is so powerful and no one can stop Him.

So my advice is to stop worrying about irrelevant things like Free Will and start worrying about your impending Eternal Damnation.

Glory!

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

Large chunks of the Old Testament have been copied from older Mesopotamian sources.

A total misreading of the History of God: the problem we have is “Chinese whispering” – the Story of Genesis as laid out in KJV1611 is accurate. As the story progressed from mouth to mouth, the further the story moved geographically and linguistically the more the meanings and subtleties was lost. When unearthed, these errors, omissions and additions were quickly discovered, and God, in His Infinite Wisdom decided that the eradication of this erroneous creed should be thorough. However, Satan, Father of Lies and Confusion, was seated deep in the mind of those Babylonians and Ugarits – lands of false prophets, and thus we have actual proof of the errors of their ways.

The creation story is clearly based on Enuma Elish.

No. Enuma Elish is based on the Divine Revelation of Creation

The Flood story is a revamped version of Gilgamesh.

Gilgamesh is clearly a derivative of the Noahide Flood

Story of Moses is modeled after the biography of Sargon the Great - the basket in the river and all.

In those days, a lot of children were put in baskets in rivers… The fact that it happened to Moses is neither here nor there as far as Christianity is concerned – Moses might well have been placed in a handbag on the four-thrity Dhow to Thebes for all it matters.

The Old Testament laws were modeled after the Ur-Nammu and later Hammurabi law codes - which was possibly copied from Urukagina's, but that text didn't survive.

Oh… I see, the text didn’t survive… now, just remind me, what was I saying about stories being told? I assume you are now agreeing with me.

Moving on to the New Testament, the whole die-for-your-sins idea is clearly a reheated Osiris story, and John's gospel is so Gnostic it's truly surprising that it was not thrown to the Apocrypha pile when the canon of the Bible was being decided.

Hmm… Isis used magic to bring her husband back to life, and then had sex with him – Can you just remind me where that happened to Jesus in John’s Gospel… or any of the others? When Jesus came back to life, that was not magic, was it?

I wish humanity invented writing earlier than it did. Then, maybe we could trace the religion lineage all the way to the oldest temple on earth, and understand the evolution of religions better.

If you are saying that you are grasping for some proof that God exists – just look at the Bible – He dictated it. And as for that group of stones in the middle of nowhere – God Himself knows why it was there and that’s enough for me.

Maybe this lovely community is correct,

There’s no “maybe” about it. We’ve got the Bible.

but maybe they are wrong and the Baha'i are correct. Or maybe the Suhrawardiyya Sufi Muslims are the ones who got it right,

Seriously? Then why do bad things keep happening to them?

Or maybe only some random shamanistic Siberian tribe is right.

You’re rambling…

Or maybe all religions are wrong and have been invented to bring comfort for in times of suffering, and to keep masses in control of the elites?

True Christianity is much more than that – it is so obvious that it almost requires no proof. I have been schooled in the ways of The Lord for as long as I can remember – now why would my parents, my pastors, my friends be mistaken as well as I?

A god weeping when people kill each other in his name.

It’s like your Nigra-Hounds fighting each other – eventually, if you leave them, they settle it among themselves and your will (a metaphor for God’s Will) triumphs.

Tell me, does he not interfere in all of these mass murders because he can't, or because he doesn't want to - he prefers weeping over action?

Dear Lord! I’ve just told you! Can’t you read?

We are just lab rats in God's laboratory.

Well, we are unworthy before Him, aren’t we? We are small soft bundles of “nothing in particular”

He doesn't care about individual rats, He's just observing an experiment.

Lu:12:6: Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
Lu:12:7: But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

...Of course, then I remember Hell and I'm afraid I'm going there for my heretic thoughts.

I always thought that God might give consideration to a 1-800 number direct to Hell, which the agnostic and the weak of faith could call to hear the Eternity of screams of agony.

I know that is is a simple sport to mislead a Catholic, but you should take a little more care - you should realise how gullible they are. Jesus's simple Truth - a parable like the cursing of the Fig Tree for example, is far more appropriate.

I hope this helps…

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

Because if God has endowed us with free will wouldn't him intervening undermine the freewill he intended us to have?

In this case, what would be the point of praying for God's help?


Let me explain my thought. A person prays to God for help for two basic reasons - either because of being hurt by another human being, or due to some natural disaster/disease. The latter are beautiful acts of God who just wants to see people suffering loosing their possessions, families, and apparently He has a real thing for little children suffering and dying from cancer. So you'd be basically praying to God for Him to change His mind, and therefore make Him acknowledge that He was somehow wrong when He smote your house with a hurricane. Not a very smart thing.


However, if you are praying because you are being hurt by another human being, God -- according to your own definition of free will -- cannot interfere because He would be interfering with your tormentor's free will. Hence, God cannot reply to a prayer of a raped child. He cannot reply to a prayer of a beaten and starving slave. He cannot reply to a prayer of a tortured political prisoner. He cannot reply to a prayer of any innocent person suffering any sort of persecution - because that would be infringing on the free will of the people doing the persecution.


So basically, if the free will is so important, then prayer is meaningless.

A total misreading of the History of God: the problem we have is “Chinese whispering” – the Story of Genesis as laid out in KJV1611 is accurate. As the story progressed from mouth to mouth, the further the story moved geographically and linguistically the more the meanings and subtleties was lost. When unearthed, these errors, omissions and additions were quickly discovered, and God, in His Infinite Wisdom decided that the eradication of this erroneous creed should be thorough.

Thank you for your lecture, Pastor Bathfire. It's always so humbling to read words of a person whose passionate faith cannot be changed by some pesky secular evidence.

[Megan1993]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of just how powerful Jesus is. If He wants to prevent someone from exercising their Free Will, like say the Pharaoh of old (Exodus 9:12), then He does so and no one can stop Him and it's perfectly perfect and good because He is Perfect and Good. If He wants to make reality such that we simultaneously have Free Will and have no Free Will, then that is reality because no one can stop Him and no one can change His Rules. In fact, the disciple John records just such a reality when Christ explains Salvation and our participation in such a Divine Event. We choose it, and yet Christ chooses for us (John 3:16;John 15:16). This is only because Jesus is so powerful and no one can stop Him.

So my advice is to stop worrying about irrelevant things like Free Will and start worrying about your impending Eternal Damnation.

Glory!

Eh...if heaven means putting up with cold bolded unemphatic bible thumpers damnation would seem like heaven to me. Besides I always kinda Admired Lucifer in some way total rebel.

[Megan1993]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

In this case, what would be the point of praying for God's help?


Let me explain my thought. A person prays to God for help for two basic reasons - either because of being hurt by another human being, or due to some natural disaster/disease. The latter are beautiful acts of God who just wants to see people suffering loosing their possessions, families, and apparently He has a real thing for little children suffering and dying from cancer. So you'd be basically praying to God for Him to change His mind, and therefore make Him acknowledge that He was somehow wrong when He smote your house with a hurricane. Not a very smart thing.


However, if you are praying because you are being hurt by another human being, God -- according to your own definition of free will -- cannot interfere because He would be interfering with your tormentor's free will. Hence, God cannot reply to a prayer of a raped child. He cannot reply to a prayer of a beaten and starving slave. He cannot reply to a prayer of a tortured political prisoner. He cannot reply to a prayer of any innocent person suffering any sort of persecution - because that would be infringing on the free will of the people doing the persecution.


So basically, if the free will is so important, then prayer is meaningless.





Thank you for your lecture, Pastor Bathfire. It's always so humbling to read words of a person whose passionate faith cannot be changed by some pesky secular evidence.

I think it depends on who you ask does prayer have meaning? It can... depending on who. I found prayer to be uneffective I'd much rather take action.


Bad things happen to people all time...it's just a fact of life. It's the complex state of being human. We're not animals I believe God when he created life merely told the animals be what you are created to be except cats.


Did I mentioned I think cats are the best gift from God? They seem to do as they please...and all have different personalities. All of them are special in every way. I think good personally crafts each one then breaks the mold when he's done. They're just special.


I think he does the same for dogs...but only personality as they are man's best friend...


Sorry I just love animals.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

...Besides I always kinda Admired Lucifer in some way total rebel.

So edgy.

Yet, completely boring, at the same time.

You should take it on the road.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

***Important TRIGGER WARNING***


This post contains and links to scientific evidence which is in discordance with the Biblical account of the creation of the world in six days. It relies on science rather than on faith. Reader discretion advised.


***

I think it depends on who you ask does prayer have meaning? It can... depending on who. I found prayer to be uneffective I'd much rather take action.


Bad things happen to people all time...it's just a fact of life. It's the complex state of being human.

Miss Megan, it seems to me that you are one step from becoming atheist, or at least agnostic. You acknowledge, in some your other posts, that the Bible might not necessarily be the Word of God. I think you acknowledge, even though you have not stated it openly, that as humans we have no way of knowing which, if any, religion of the world is the correct view of God. Now you acknowledge that prayer is not effectual, which basically renders a divinity useless.


If all of the above is true, then why do you keep mentioning God at all? You seem to believe that He created the world and then left or got bored or maybe even died. The latter would seem plausible if we humans were truly made in His image, because dying is something that happens to all humans. Except for Utnapishtim, but Pastor Bathfire already covered that story as being a mere distortion of the Biblical Flood, even though historically the Babilonian version is much older than the Biblical one.

We're not animals I believe God when he created life merely told the animals be what you are created to be except cats.

This is very interesting. Do you think He knew exactly how the evolution was going to proceed, or did He let it loose like He did with human history? Because we do share a common ancestor with cats. This is it:



Source - a research summary in Nature magazine; link to the original Science article abstract; no full text of the latter article available, unless your library has a subscription.


Wasn't it cute? It was eating insects and it lived shortly after the mass extinction which wiped out most of the dinosaurs.

Did I mentioned I think cats are the best gift from God?

Which ones?


This is the cat family tree; here is a link to a larger/more readable version. Original article in Nature where this picture appeared - again, you'll have to log in through your library.


And I would argue, that not all cats are so friendly towards humans... there are early hominid skulls with holes matching the teeth of saber toothed tigers, you know. Here is a link to a National Geographic article about various cat species and other predators eating our early ancestors.


Now, of course, if you were to believe in God, and in the Holy Bible as the Word of God, you could reject everything I cited here as a heresy which does not conform to the six days creation as outlined in Genesis.


But if you doubt that the Bible is the Word, then you have no excuse to reject the evidence of evolution, which definitively excludes the possibility of animal species as we know them today being created by God.

[Megan1993]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

***Important TRIGGER WARNING***


This post contains and links to scientific evidence which is in discordance with the Biblical account of the creation of the world in six days. It relies on science rather than on faith. Reader discretion advised.


***

Miss Megan, it seems to me that you are one step from becoming atheist, or at least agnostic. You acknowledge, in some your other posts, that the Bible might not necessarily be the Word of God. I think you acknowledge, even though you have not stated it openly, that as humans we have no way of knowing which, if any, religion of the world is the correct view of God. Now you acknowledge that prayer is not effectual, which basically renders a divinity useless.


If all of the above is true, then why do you keep mentioning God at all? You seem to believe that He created the world and then left or got bored or maybe even died. The latter would seem plausible if we humans were truly made in His image, because dying is something that happens to all humans. Except for Utnapishtim, but Pastor Bathfire already covered that story as being a mere distortion of the Biblical Flood, even though historically the Babilonian version is much older than the Biblical one.


This is very interesting. Do you think He knew exactly how the evolution was going to proceed, or did He let it loose like He did with human history? Because we do share a common ancestor with cats. This is it:



Source - a research summary in Nature magazine; link to the original Science article abstract; no full text of the latter article available, unless your library has a subscription.


Wasn't it cute? It was eating insects and it lived shortly after the mass extinction which wiped out most of the dinosaurs.

Which ones?


This is the cat family tree; here is a link to a larger/more readable version. Original article in Nature where this picture appeared - again, you'll have to log in through your library.


And I would argue, that not all cats are so friendly towards humans... there are early hominid skulls with holes matching the teeth of saber toothed tigers, you know. Here is a link to a National Geographic article about various cat species and other predators eating our early ancestors.


Now, of course, if you were to believe in God, and in the Holy Bible as the Word of God, you could reject everything I cited here as a heresy which does not conform to the six days creation as outlined in Genesis.


But if you doubt that the Bible is the Word, then you have no excuse to reject the evidence of evolution, which definitively excludes the possibility of animal species as we know them today being created by God.

I believe God created evolution just because he can and merely left it to it's own devices; I also believe heexists and watches what we do with the freewill he gave us. I do doubt the bible as being the ultimate word of God because again so many authors and cultures and such a span of time that It's mostly just questionable. It really reinforces the idea when we have countless examples in history of people using the bible as justification to sastify earthly desires.


It makes me question did God really command this or are we putting words into God's mouth?


As for prayer through experience I find it ineffectual.
Catsa

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Should Homeschoolers Have Proms?

I believe God created evolution just because he can and merely left it to it's own devices;

Among Bible Students, this is known as “The Heresy of The Cornflakes.”

A man once asked “Why are all the little bits at the bottom of the cornflakes box?” and the atheist answered
“It is because all sizes of cornflakes are randomly put in the box in the factory and they are shaken about in their journey to your home. The smaller ones fall by gravity to the bottom through the holes between the larger ones.”

You will see that this denies any Godly involvement in the settling of cornflakes, and if we accept such a heresy, then we will end with questioning what He does all day, let alone asking why there is a need for God!

From this follows the slippery path to The Gates of Hell in which the weak and gullible are persuaded by atheists that as “nothing exists without a reason, there seems to be no reason for God and thus there is no reason for God to exist”! Outrageous!

But this is precisely what you have done!

I also believe He exists and watches what we do with the freewill he gave us.

You have reduced God to a CCTV camera!

It makes me question did God really command this or are we putting words into God's mouth?

How would it be possible to put any words into God’s mouth? We don’t know what He is going to say or do next – this would mean that all prophecies were so much garbage and like “horoscopes”.

As for prayer through experience I find it ineffectual.
Catsa

God does not listen to the prayers of sinners (John:9:31). He does not listen to you; you are a sinner; therefore God exists.

(Of course, there is still debate as to whether this means that if you are a sinner and you pray for forgiveness, God will not hear you. To be on the safe side, simply don’t sin.

I hope this helps.)