Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

[Romeo Rovagnati]

From Wikipedia:

Collyridianism was an Early Christian heretical movement in pre-Islamic Arabia[1] whose adherents apparently worshipped the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, as a goddess. The main source of information about them comes from their strongest opponent, Epiphanius of Salamis, who wrote about them in his Panarion of about 375 AD. According to Epiphanius,[2] certain women in then-largely-pagan Arabia syncretized indigenous beliefs with the worship of Mary, and offered little cakes or bread-rolls (Greek κολλυρις – a word occurring in the Septuagint) to her. Epiphanius states that Collyridianism originated in Thrace and Scythia, although it may have first travelled to those regions from Syria or Asia Minor. Little else is known.

Now explain this to me dear protestants: How can we worship Our Lady if our Church condemned this doctrine?

Checkmate!

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

How can we worship Our Lady if our Church condemned this doctrine?

No-one cares what you call it, worship, respect, adoration, not an idol, veneration of, prostration before. It's all the same to God.

Knowing what a whore your Babylonian cult would become God was very specific in His language on the point. What is prohibited is as follows:

1. making a statue of her
2. bowing to a statue of her
3. serving her in any other way

The fact that you state something anyone can read for themselves in The Bible changes nothing. Do you do what God prohibits?

. .
Totus Tuus was Saint John Paul II's apostolic motto. It
is a Latin phrase meaning "totally thine" and expressed
his personal Consecration to Mary based on the spiritual
approach of Saint Louis de Montfort and the Mariology
in his works.

What a waste. He could have and expressed his personal consecration to God based on the spiritual approach of Jesus. But no. Someone had to know better than God. Someone had to call himself pope and live in palaces and not care how many poor deluded souls were cast into everlasting torment as a result. Someone had to be pope Frank. And the more idols you can sell for him, and all the hangers-on who don't come cheap especially not if they call themselves cardinals, the better he can live in monstrous luxury.

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

According to Epiphanius,[2] certain women in then-largely-pagan Arabia syncretized indigenous beliefs with the worship of Mary, and offered little cakes or bread-rolls (Greek κολλυρις – a word occurring in the Septuagint) to her.

That sounds vaguely familiar somehow. Oh, yes, here it is:

Jeremiah 7:18 KJV: 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead [their] dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

In other words, those women continued the pagan worship of the queen of heaven, placing Mary in that role. Nowadays, who calls whom the Queen of Heaven? Your move, Signor Rovagnati.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

Frank with his Mary idol was fairly easy to find. I wondered what he was doing, I thought "something to do with his sleeve?" Thank you for that information.

Among the pictures was one of this inert lump not even able to balance the barbie tiara on its own head and yet Rovagnati prefers this over a live Jesus? The words DYNAMIC DUO are not springing to mind. The words JEREMIAH TEN on the other hand seem remarkably pertinent.

JEREMIAH 10 .KJV . look up
2 [God speaking] Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Just a fleshed out version of the most important commandments, entirely unnecessary for anyone who can read and seeks God. You don't even need to read. I'll come 'round and read The Ten Commandments out loud. But popes and cardinals can read, then do the exact opposite. They, and their toadies, tell us that it's not this and it's not that when everyone can see what it is and how it's not a Jesus equivalent in any way and on and on. So let's see what their version of Jesus is. Do they make Jesus idols? Yes. Do the celebrate the Jesus idol in the same way as they celebrate the Mary idol? Yes. Frank tells us that Jesus is the sun and Mary is the dawn. That's rubbish. There is a dawn goddess but it's not called Mary. Quite the reverse.

[GaleWhoring the Boring (On Moderation)]

Re: Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

Mary moves the earth and Jesus parts the waters. They work in glorious unison. Catholicism has this subtle poetry I imagine is lost on most of you. All the world's finest art, architecture, writing and ceremony all originate from the papal state (See? A rhyme which comes naturally inspired by Blessed Mary). In comparison, Baptists worship in bland, lazy shacks and super-box markets, rather than intricate and ponderous cathedrals. People complain when a top cardinal services an alter boy, but did anyone say a word when President Trump literally fingered His Holiness during his visit? Francis thankfully was onto Donald's cheeky advances.

[WilliamJenningsBryan]

Re: Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

Mary moves the earth and Jesus parts the waters. They work in glorious unison. Catholicism has this subtle poetry I imagine is lost on most of you. All the world's finest art, architecture, writing and ceremony all originate from the papal state (See? A rhyme which comes naturally inspired by Blessed Mary). In comparison, Baptists worship in bland, lazy shacks and super-box markets, rather than intricate and ponderous cathedrals. People complain when a top cardinal services an alter boy, but did anyone say a word when President Trump literally fingered His Holiness during his visit? Francis thankfully was onto Donald's cheeky advances.

It's encouraging that you've developed some rhyming talents on par with inner city nigra youth, but it has little to do with Salvation®.

A great deal could be written about the cathylick Mary worshiping cult, but for starters you have to look no further than the bead slinging practice of the "rosary". Not only does it elevate Mary to the "mother of God", but the prayers said to "Mary" outnumber those to God by an order of magnitude. If this isn't blasphemy, I don't know what is.

[GaleWhoring the Boring (On Moderation)]

Re: Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

It's encouraging that you've developed some rhyming talents on par with inner city nigra youth, but it has little to do with Salvation®.

A great deal could be written about the cathylick Mary worshiping cult, but for starters you have to look no further than the bead slinging practice of the "rosary". Not only does it elevate Mary to the "mother of God", but the prayers said to "Mary" outnumber those to God by an order of magnitude. If this isn't blasphemy, I don't know what is.

It's quite therapeutic Bill, you should try it sometime. If you ask nicely, I might let you play with my rosary.

[Romeo Rovagnati]

Re: Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

That sounds vaguely familiar somehow. Oh, yes, here it is:

Jeremiah 7:18 KJV: 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead [their] dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

In other words, those women continued the pagan worship of the queen of heaven, placing Mary in that role. Nowadays, who calls whom the Queen of Heaven? Your move, Signor Rovagnati.

Well, some members of your church said that the Devil could have pre-stolen all the Christ attributes by creating other religions. Couldn't it be possible that the title of Mary was pre-stolen by Lilith?

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

Well, some members of your church said that the Devil could have pre-stolen all the Christ attributes by creating other religions. Couldn't it be possible that the title of Mary was pre-stolen by Lilith?

You're begging the question. The Bible (as opposed to Catholic mythology) never says that Mary has that title, so there was nothing to pre-steal.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

From Wikipedia:

Now explain this to me dear protestants: How can we worship Our Lady if our Church condemned this doctrine?

Checkmate!

Well, the answer is that "Mary Worship" was not condemned.

Collyridianism was an Early Christian heretical movement in pre-Islamic Arabia[1] whose adherents apparently worshipped the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, as a goddess. The main source of information about them comes from their strongest opponent, Epiphanius of Salamis, who wrote about them in his Panarion of about 375 AD. According to Epiphanius,[2] certain women in then-largely-pagan Arabia syncretized indigenous beliefs with the worship of Mary, and offered little cakes or bread-rolls (Greek κολλυρις – a word occurring in the Septuagint) to her. Epiphanius states that Collyridianism originated in Thrace and Scythia, although it may have first travelled to those regions from Syria or Asia Minor. Little else is known.

Little else is known by most Catholics - the rest of Christendom knows quite a lot.

First you need to read https://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/COLLYRID.TXT, which is a Catholic view of Collyridianism and based upon the actions of Epiphanius (315- 403), the bishop of Salamis "the most diligent opponent of the Collyridians. He was widely renowned for his learning and holy asceticism and was a close friend of Jerome, but he was also a rude and querulous man who garnered many enemies, some of whom were fellow bishops."

The description of Epiphanius continues: "The vehemence of his opposition to the Collyridians' idolatry was rivaled by his fanatical opposition to icons." [He had] "a "fiery temperament and unreasonable impetuosity . . . that made the calm objectivity necessary for scholarly work impossible for him. His narrow-mindedness is apparent in the part he played in the Origenist controversy and the violence with which he attacked the veneration of images. "He considered this idolatry, and in his testament he anathematized anyone who would even gaze upon a picture of the Logos-God. His temperament made him suspicious of heresy everywhere, and he made capital of even the smallest inaccuracy of statement."

(You will know a lot of bishops like this.)

So now you know who you are dealing with. Let us consider what the Collyridians actually did, but, before we do, let me explain to you two terms:

Latria: (in Roman Catholic theology) supreme worship allowed to God alone.
Dulia: (in Roman Catholic theology) the reverence accorded to saints and angels.

Apparently, once a year, the Collyridians laid a cloth over a chair, placed bread upon the chair and dedicated the bread to Mary.

Your catholic site says (wrongly) "Details about the Collyridians are scanty, but one of the few specifics we know of them is that at their liturgical service bread was offered as a sacrifice to Mary."

What in fact happened was:

For certain women decorate a barber's chair or square seat, spread a cloth on it, set out bread and offer it in Mary's name on a certain day of the year, and all partake of the bread;[St. Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion, Section VII, 1,6]

This is a classic example of reading with Roman Catholic glasses. Epiphanius does not specify a latria / dulia distinction - although you were taught that it does.

Let us see what Epiphanius's whole quote and what he says of the women:

Epiphanius of Salamis (310/320-403): "And who but women are the teachers of this? Women are unstable, prone to error, and mean-spirited. As in our earlier chapter on Quintilla, Maximilla and Priscilla, so here the devil has seen fit to disgorge ridiculous teachings from the mouths of women. For certain women decorate a barber’s chair or a square seat, spread a cloth on it, set out bread and offer it in Mary’s name on a certain day of the year, and all partake of the bread; I discussed parts of this right in my letter to Arabia. Now, however, I shall speak plainly of it and, with prayer to God, give the best refutations of it that I can, so as to grub out the roots of this idolatrous sect and with God’s help, be able to cure certain people of this madness." Frank Williams, trans., The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis: Book II and III (Sects 47-80, De Fide) 59. Against Collyridians who make offerings to Mary, 1,6-7 (Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1994), p. 621.

Remember how Epiphanius was dead against idolatry? (He would not have had crucifixes or statues of Mary, would he?) It was idolatry that was his main point.

The catholic church said that Collyridianism was a heresy because it was idolatry, not that "it worshiped Mary."

So, let us look at the Catholic Church:

Yes, that is right - the Catholic church got rid of Collyridianism because it was interfering with its monopoly on Mary Worship.

Your Catholic writer, with whose quote I started this, seemed to forget that the Catholic Church "lights candles to Mary" - how does that differ from offering her bread?

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

Catholicism has this subtle poetry

So does Edward Lear.

[GaleWhoring the Boring (On Moderation)]

Re: Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

So does Edward Lear.

Well, my impression of you might be wrong after all, I wouldn't have expected you to appreciate witty poetry. You seem to post only Bible scripture, but I'm happy to be wrong.

[Romeo Rovagnati]

Re: Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

Mary moves the earth and Jesus parts the waters.

Mrs. Whoring, i know you cannot answer anymore, considering that your behavior wouldn't even be tolerated in an Hindu temple during a feces festival.


However, i have to say that your description of Jesus and Mary sounds familiar. It reminds me the visions of Mary Valtorta, who reported having seen a Sun-Jesus along with a Moon-Mary, both shining in the skies. She also revelead that Jesus told her that there are other world, inhabited by other beings. These beings may be the aliens, which confirms that nothing is hidden from God and that he predates science. She also predicted that the Pope will rule the entire Planet and that everyone will submit to him.

[Dennis Lukes]

Re: Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

Hey, Christianity meets Star Trek has already been done, it's called Mormonism. Do you people believe every single Catholic schizoid who hears voices? Praise the Lord that sane Christians only believe the people who heard voices AND were recorded in the Bible.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Proof that Catholics do NOT worship Mary

Originally Posted by Romeo Rovagnati
Mrs. Whoring, i know you cannot answer anymore, considering that your behavior wouldn't even be tolerated in an Hindu temple during a feces festival. However, i have to say that your description of Jesus and Mary sounds familiar. It reminds me the visions of .[reference to blasphemous false "saint" redacted], who reported having seen a Sun-Jesus along with a Moon-Mary, both shining in the skies. She also revelead that Jesus told her that there are other world, inhabited by other beings. These beings may be the .aliens, which confirms that nothing is hidden from God and that he predates science. She also predicted that the Pope will rule the entire Planet and that everyone will submit to him.

Originally Posted by Dennis Lukes
Hey, Christianity meets Star Trek has already been done, it's called .Mormonism. Do you people believe every single Catholic schizoid who hears voices? Praise the Lord that sane Christians only believe the people who heard voices AND were recorded in the Bible.

And so apparently Rome is going all out to combine as many heretics as possible into a virtual idol having its arms and breast made of one thing, its legs another, belly and thighs a third material, the head something else; obviously the whole having feet of clay – where have I heard this before? And it won't surprise me when they actually build one! Now it could be said that catholics don't worship Mary because they don't worship anything. Popes just make up anything they feel like or happens to be expedient at the time and it hangs around as dogma until it's out-of-date, then gets dissed for something else. Whether that constitutes pope worship is a moot point because I'd like to find out how Rovagnati interprets John Chapter 10?

JOHN 10

1-6 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

14-16 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.