[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

We follow the bible, but we also follow equally inspired Sacred Tradition which predates any scripture and greatly predates a compiled New Testament. However, I would like to address calling "No Man Father" which the link you provided is an excellent source for the catholic perspective. After we have come to an accord on calling no man father, then may we address other topics such as Sola Scriptura.

Did my point go that far over your head?

[Glendora Christianson]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

I have read through this entire post, and for some reason, Sacred Heat seems to have convinced me to remove Catholicism and Papa Legba from my list of false religions and cults. (snicker-wink Glendora)

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

Did my point go that far over your head?

Well this could just be my mistake. Usually when Catholics are accused of not following the bible, the intended target are our beliefs supporting sacred tradition...

However, as far as hyperbole is concerned... i felt I have given a fair opening address on this subject with my opening statement on the matter found on the first page of this thread:

Ok well let's take this from the top I guess... I don't think Jesus was a grammar instructor. I don't know what you might think His purpose hear may have been, but it was not to instruct us in our use of language

Do you scold your children for addressing you as father? What about dad? Is that acceptable?......

etc....

This quote of mine has thus far gone unchallenged...

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

Ok well let's take this from the top I guess... I don't think Jesus was a grammar instructor. I don't know what you might think His purpose hear may have been, but it was not to instruct us in our use of language

Do you scold your children for addressing you as father? What about dad? Is that acceptable?......

etc....

Let's look at the Bible verses in question, shall we?

Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

It is clear Jesus is talking about referring to religious authorities as "father", and not admonishing people for calling their own fathers "Father". The key is verse 8 where he mentions Rabbis (religious authority). This segues perfectly into verse 9 where it is clear he is talking about some man who presumes religious authority and wants people to call him "Father" (sound familiar?)

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

Ok well let's take this from the top I guess... I don't think Jesus was a grammar instructor. I don't know what you might think His purpose hear may have been, but it was not to instruct us in our use of language

Jesus clearly cares about grammar.

"one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law" - Matthew 5:18

That's one of the problems with you Mary worshipers. You think that approximately following God's Commandments is good enough. At Landover Baptist, we follow the entire Word of God to the letter!

[WWJDnow]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

I mean, you guys know that the early Christian Fathers were Catholic right?

No, we don't, because that's not true.

All forms of Christianity stem from that one source

That is true. But you're a Catholic, not a Christian.

I think it's fine that you see my religion as "false" as I have mutual feelings for yours.

We don't care what you think. We only care what Jesus thinks.

However... a cult? Seriously? Why would you think that?

Because Catholicism is a cult. Honestly now, which do you have more of in your house, pictures of the Pope or Bibles?

I thought so.

Of course all Christianity came from Christ, hence the name. However, you would agree that the first form of Christianity was indeed Catholic?

No, we would not.

Do you scold your children for addressing you as father?

We don't scold our children. The Bible tells us spare the rod, spoil the child.

What about dad? Is that acceptable?

Yes. You really should call your priests "dad." As in "who's your daddy."

In reality, if we eliminate this word from our vocabulary, then the sense that God is our "father" would lose all meaning as we would have no earthly counterpart for which to compare and understand. This claim is nonsense.

The Bible tells us not to call any man father. Just as it tells us not to make statues of Jesus and bow down before them. Just as it tells us that a bishop should have a wife. Just as it tells us not to pray in public. Just as it tells us that there is no intermediary between man and God. It does not tell us not to call a man father except where you think God's wrong. If you'd read the Bible, you'd know that.

For example, Joseph tells his brothers of a special fatherly relationship God had given him with the king of Egypt: "So it was not you who sent me here, but God; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt" (Gen. 45:8).

So what? The Bible says "call no man father," not "do what Pharoah did."

"I was a father to the poor, and I searched out the cause of him whom I did not know" (Job 29:16).

So what? The Bible says "call no man father," not "do what the peasants did in Job's day."

"In that day I will call my servant Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah . . . and I will clothe him with [a] robe, and will bind [a] girdle on him, and will commit . . . authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah" (Is. 22:20–21).

So what? The Bible says "call no man father," not do what the Jerusalemites did 500 years before Christ.

"I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

The correct translation is:

For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

You really need to invest in a King James Version Bible, not a translation riddled by inconsistencies. Here, Paul claims to have begotten them in Christ, but he does NOT call himself their father.

"As for you, do not be called 'Rabbi'. You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven. Do not be called 'Master'; you have but one master, the Messiah. The greatest among you must be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

You got one right at least.

While the title "Rabbi" has been said to be used in addressing the scribes and Pharisees, the implication is that "Father" and "Master" also were.

Master was, father was not. You need to brush up on your history.

The Matthean Jesus

There is not a "Matthean" Jesus. There is just Jesus. He is the same Jesus in all of the Gospels. Stop preaching your Catholic polytheism.

forbids not only the titles but the spirit of superiority and pride that is shown by their acceptance

The most prideful and superior people I know are Catholic priests.

Thus, this is an effort made by Jesus for the apostles to be humble and not take on such roles as the scribes and pharisees.

And yet that is exactly what Catholic priests have done. They have become the masters of the sacrifice, the gatekeepers to God, and the moneychangers in the temple (yes, I'm referring to bingo).

See also in Luke 14:11 "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

You don't seem to exhibit very much humility.

So John founded your Church? Before Jesus died? And when all of Christs followers became Catholic what happened to you guys? Dissappeared until the Anabaptists in 1569?

Yes, John founded the Church before Jesus died.

As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:2-5

[Remy Lebeau]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

If it's not a problem, I would like to discuss this after the current topic of calling a priest father has been concluded.

IT HAS BEEN CONCLUDED: YOU LOST. THE BIBLE WON.

Unless by bringing up this new point, you concede that Jesus truly intended for the apostles to be humble, unlike the pharisees?

What statements did I reply to? Do not try and weasel your way out of the obvious fact that you are not a Christian and that you support pedophilia.

[SUV]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

Well, this Christian would substitute the "l" in "cult" for another, nearby, letter of the alphabet.

Of course, I am too much of a Lady to put it in print

[Don Bozo el Guapo]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

Well, this Christian would substitute the "l" in "cult" for another, nearby, letter of the alphabet.

Of course, I am too much of a Lady to put it in print

Hola SU< mi bonita nina. Whats up for Holloween ? Wanna dress up like Nuns and go Cantina Crawlin again ? Maybe Sacred Heart would like to tag along and we can dabble in her religious cu?t a little.

[SUV]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

Hola SU< mi bonita nina. Whats up for Holloween ? Wanna dress up like Nuns and go Cantina Crawlin again ?

Well, it Certainly was fun last year! We Sure did Evidence so many things!

At least everyone addressed me as "Sister," more than I can say for some of the quote/unquote 'Good Christians' in this Congregation!

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

Let's look at the Bible verses in question, shall we?

[/COLOR][/COLOR]Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

It is clear Jesus is talking about referring to religious authorities as "father", and not admonishing people for calling their own fathers "Father". The key is verse 8 where he mentions Rabbis (religious authority).

Well then, did Jesus forbid the use of these titles altogether or not? Sounds to me like the Baptists here make the same mistake that you accuse the Catholics of: You say, well when he said "call no man father" he didn't mean my father, he meant that other guy.... but what I do is ok, bc I can twist scripture to make it sound that way..."

You see we make the same claim? Why are you allowed to call your earthly father, "Father" when I am not allowed to call my priest "father"?

The bible explicitly states that we are to "call NO MAN father"... or is there exceptions to Jesus' commandment? Is that what you insinuate?

This segues perfectly into verse 9 where it is clear he is talking about some man who presumes religious authority and wants people to call him "Father" (sound familiar?)

You see, to properly understand the nature of Jesus' commandment, you must understand the nature of the Pharisees. They exhibited themselves as far superior to the little jews that worshiped around them, and one way of exhibiting themselves so was through the use of these various titles.

Jesus does not want the leaders of His Church to model themselves after the Pharisees. He wants them to be humble, and that is the intention BEHIND the commandment.

This is clearly seen in Matthew 23:12 "Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted." This teaching of humility is further taught in Luke in the parallel verse 14:11 "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

No, we don't, because that's not true.

"You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 8, Ignatius of Antioch).

You probably groaned when you read that name huh? Well you should. There is no other record of an early Church than the Catholic Church. You will find no writings alluding to a Church practicing Sola Scriptura or faith alone or Personal Lord and Saviour, bc they simply did not exist until Martin Luther.

Because Catholicism is a cult. Honestly now, which do you have more of in your house, pictures of the Pope or Bibles?

Bibles. I am from a family of six, each of us posses three or more. In addition, we have a KJV kept downstairs away from the complete bibles.
[QUOTE]

The Bible tells us not to call any man father. Just as it tells us not to make statues of Jesus and bow down before them. Just as it tells us that a bishop should have a wife. Just as it tells us not to pray in public. Just as it tells us that there is no intermediary between man and God. It does not tell us not to call a man father except where you think God's wrong. If you'd read the Bible, you'd know that.

I just posted this which provides your answer:

"You see, to properly understand the nature of Jesus' commandment, you must understand the nature of the Pharisees. They exhibited themselves as far superior to the little jews that worshiped around them, and one way of exhibiting themselves so was through the use of these various titles.

Jesus does not want the leaders of His Church to model themselves after the Pharisees. He wants them to be humble, and that is the intention BEHIND the commandment.

This is clearly seen in Matthew 23:12 "Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted." This teaching of humility is further taught in Luke in the parallel verse 14:11 "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

So what? The Bible says "call no man father," not "do what Pharoah did."
So what? The Bible says "call no man father," not "do what the peasants did in Job's day."
So what? The Bible says "call no man father," not do what the Jerusalemites did 500 years before Christ.

I was just getting started

Philemon 10 - whose father I became in my imprisonment
Hebrews 12:7-9 - we have earthly fathers to discipline us
1 John 2:13,14 - I write to you, fathers, because you know him

The problem with your interpretation of:
"But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ‘masters,’ for you have one master, the Christ" (Matt. 23:8–10).

Is that although Jesus seems to prohibit the use of the term "teacher," in Matthew 28:19–20, Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7); "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher" (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: "God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers" (1 Cor. 12:28); and "his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as "teachers."

Way to go! You Baptists have created yourself a biblical contradiction!

This passage simply cannot be taken in the literal baptist interpretation. Or else the bible is reduced to nonsense.

Jesus HAD to be speaking hyperbole. For elsewhere in the bible, as i have pointed out, he established the apostles as teachers, which in your interpretation, he just forbid!

Master was, father was not. You need to brush up on your history.

Jesus just said otherwise. You need to brush up on your bible.

The most prideful and superior people I know are Catholic priests.

Haha. Then you don't know any. What part about giving up marriage, a family, and possibly being moved to the far corners of the earth on a seconds notice leads you to believe that these devoted men leave anything for themselves?

Yes, John founded the Church before Jesus died.

As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:2-5

The Baptist church could not have been established before Jesus simply for the fact that you embrace Sola Scriptura and there was not even a bible yet. Furthermore, that idea was not even conceived until Marthin Luther gave birth to it.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

IT HAS BEEN CONCLUDED: YOU LOST. THE BIBLE WON.

Hahaha. You're a funny little man

You would just love to declare victory here wouldn't you? However, you have yet to even offer a piece in the disagreement about calling no man father... That is the current topic. Surely you know as a "master" of debate that by changing the subject constantly as you seek to do then nothing will ever be concluded? Do not run away from a topic that scares you. And this topic was here first. If you want to talk about something else, start a new thread...

[Remy Lebeau]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

Hahaha. You're a funny little man

You would just love to declare victory here wouldn't you? However, you have yet to even offer a piece in the disagreement about calling no man father... That is the current topic. Surely you know as a "master" of debate that by changing the subject constantly as you seek to do then nothing will ever be concluded? Do not run away from a topic that scares you. And this topic was here first. If you want to talk about something else, start a new thread...

The topic of the thread is "Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?", not "Hey... can at least my children refer to me as father?".

You may be able to get less seasoned debaters to debate rather or not the sky is sky blue or spinach green, but I'm not going to. Just as the sky is blue the Bible says what it says. Case closed. The use of the word "father" is hardly the biggest nail in the coffin that holds to the idea that catholics are anything more than pagan cultist.

If I was a member of a false church of pedophile lovers I'd want to keep the focus on something as relatively harmless as rather or not a 10 year old can call his daddy father too. What defense could you possibly have in favor of it being OK for a priest to insert his tallywhacker into said 10 year old and continued support for Darth Ratzinger who actively protects them? You're not the first catholic, and I doubt you'll be the last, who has tried to weasel their way out of the subject. Because your support of said pope makes you just as guilty and also blasphemes Jesus by your assertion that a pedophile supporter is God's vicar. The "tithes" of catholics go to paying off hush money, relocating boy rapists and destroying evidence. You catholics are one sick bunch.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

Hahaha. You're a funny little man

You would just love to declare victory here wouldn't you? However, you have yet to even offer a piece in the disagreement about calling no man father... That is the current topic. Surely you know as a "master" of debate that by changing the subject constantly as you seek to do then nothing will ever be concluded? Do not run away from a topic that scares you. And this topic was here first. If you want to talk about something else, start a new thread...

This question has already been masterfully answered here, papist.