[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

How dare you insult Mary,

How can you say we worship her?

... These have been worshipped, a turtle, a rock. a stain and a piece of bread.


But perhaps this is the most surprising of all, I have given it a title, as otherwise no one would recognize it



No you papist, your fellow travelers are deluded.

[James Peter]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

What's wrong with those? Mary appeared in those every day items to show how much she loves us. By bearing Jesus and suffering while watching her son of the cross, Mary the Redemptrix saved us from our sins!

St. Alphonsus M. de’ Liguori's prayer to the Blessed Virgin Mary

Most holy Virgin Immaculate, my Mother Mary, to thee who art the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the universe, the advocate, the hope, the refuge of sinners, I who am the most miserable of all sinners, have recourse this day. I venerate thee, great Queen, and I thank thee for the many graces thou hast bestowed upon me even unto this day; in particular for having delivered me from the hell which I have so often deserved by my sins. I love thee, most dear Lady; and for the love I bear thee, I promise to serve thee willingly for ever and to do what I can to make thee loved by others also. I place in thee all my hopes for salvation; accept me as thy servant and shelter me under thy mantle, thou who art the Mother of mercy. And since thou art so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations, or at least obtain for me the strength to overcome them until death. From thee I implore a true love for Jesus Christ. Through thee I hope to die a holy death. My dear Mother, by the love thou bearest to Almighty God, I pray thee to assist me always, but most of all at the last moment of my life. Forsake me not then, until thou shalt see me safe in heaven, there to bless thee and sing of thy mercies through all eternity. Such is my hope. Amen.

As you can see, we clearly don't worship her!

[Xmeagol]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

National Socialism is condemned by the holy bible.

[TinyJay]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

Hitler ain't dead ,he is in Rome( well actually Vatican City) .Handing out his blessings to men in robes(ewe) so that they may go forth and molest little boys!
Now there are some guys that will get some toasty feet from the fires of Hell !

[James Peter]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

Right. I suppose Hitler must be alive and well at 120 years old, right?

Though this is a guy who also believes Jesus and Satan are siblings, that men can become equal to God, that before we were born our spirits lived on another planet, that you can baptize dead people, that Joseph Smith was given a new part of the Bible on Golden Plates by the spirit of a dead Christian prophet who lived on the American continent in 400 AD that he translated with a magical rock in a hat before the plates were taken away by an angel, that after we die the saved will get their own planet to rule over and have celestial babies with their spouses, that the Native Americans are a Lost Tribe of Israel who had an advanced civilization before European settlers arriveded and that Jesus preached to Him after the Resurrection.

[TinyJay]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

Right. I suppose Hitler must be alive and well at 120 years old, right?

Those Germans are some smart people,good doctors to.
Hey wasn't the currant Pope a member of the Nazi party,Hitler youth?

[James Peter]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

He was conscripted, not enlisted, as it was legally mandatory. His real views towards Nazism can be found here:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-04-23-new-pope-defied-Nazis_x.htm

[TinyJay]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

But he was a member of the Nazi Party.Did he denounce it at the time or did he have an epiphany at some later date? Kind of like killing 6 million people and then say was that wrong ,I am sorry.A real man would have said no thanks send me off the work camps.I have morals.

[James Peter]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controv...f_Joseph_Smith

Criticisms of Joseph Smith

Main article: Joseph Smith, Jr.
Critics allege that Joseph Smith, Jr. invented Mormonism in order to gain money, women, and power.[7][8][9][10][11]

[edit] Allegations of Smith's slander of women who refused plural marriage

Joseph Smith has been criticized for slandering the reputations of women who refused to become his polygamous wives. Published allegations of adultery against Sarah Pratt and Bennett appeared in local and church publications[12] with signed affidavits from her neighbors Stephen and Zeruiah Goddard and others. Dr. Robert D. Foster made the following allegation against Bennett and Pratt:
“Alas, none but the seduced join the seducer [Dr. Bennett]; those only who have been arraigned before a just tribunal for the same unhallowed conduct can be found to give countenance to any of his black hearted lies, and they, too, detest him for his seduction, these are the ladies to whom he refers his hearers to substantiate his assertions. Mrs. White, Mrs. Pratt, Niemans, Miller, Brotherton, and others. [13]”
Pratt later claimed that Zeruiah Goddard told her these testimonies were made under threat from Joseph's brother Hyrum Smith:
“It is not my fault; Hyrum Smith [Joseph's brother] came to our house, with the affidavits all written out, and forced us to sign them. Joseph and the Church must be saved, said he. We saw that resistance was useless, they would have ruined us; so we signed the papers.[14]”
The author Richard S. Van Wagoner concluded that the adultery charges against Sarah Pratt are "highly improbable" and could "be dismissed as slander."[11] In addition to Sarah Pratt, Van Wagoner states that Nancy Rigdon and Martha Brotherton, "also suffered slanderous attacks because they exposed the Church's private polygamy posture."[15] Orson Pratt stood by his wife Sarah in preference to the denials of Smith, who told his disciple Orson that "If [Orson] did believe his wife and follow her suggestions he would go to hell".[16] Wilford Woodruff stated that "Dr. John Cook Bennett was the ruin of Orson Pratt".[17] Van Wagoner and Walker note that, on August 20, 1842, "after four days of fruitless efforts at reconciliation, the Twelve excommunicated Pratt for 'insubordination' and Sarah for 'adultery'".[18]
Sidney Rigdon wrote a letter to the Messenger and Advocate in 1844 condemning the church's Quorum of the Twelve and their alleged connection to polygamy,
“It is a fact so well known that the Twelve and their adherents have endeavored to carry on this spiritual wife business … and have gone to the most shameful and desperate lengths to keep from the public. First, insulting innocent females, and when they resented the insult, these monsters in human shape would assail their characters by lying, and perjuries, with a multitude of desperate men to help them effect the ruin of those whom they insulted, and all this to enable them to keep these corrupt practices from the world.[9]”

[edit] Allegations that Smith allowed abortions for plural wives

See also: List of the wives of Joseph Smith, Jr.
Smith was accused by Sarah Pratt in an 1886 interview with "vitriolic anti-Mormon journalist W. Wyl"[19] of allowing John C. Bennett, a medical doctor, to perform abortions on polygamous wives who were officially single, which she alleged limited Smith's progeny from these wives.[20] She based this on statements made to her by Bennett.[21][22] Orson Pratt, Sarah Pratt's husband, considered Bennett a liar
“J.C. Bennett has published lies concerning myself & family & the people with which I am connected....His book I have read with the greatest disgust. No candid honest man can or will believe it. He has disgraced himself in eyes of all civilized society who will despise his very name,"[11]”
whereas Sarah Pratt herself said, "[I] know that the principle statements in John C. Bennett's book on Mormonism are true."[9]
[edit] Different accounts of the First Vision

Main article: First Vision
Richard Abanes and the Tanners note that ten differing accounts of the First Vision have been recorded, which they claim contain contradictory information about what beings were present and what they said.[23][24] Grant H. Palmer points out evidence that Joseph Smith did not speak about the First Vision until a decade after it was said to have occurred.[25] Furthermore, the first published account came 22 years after it was said to have occurred, in 1842, shortly before Smith's death.[25] Some of the accounts only mention a visitation by an angel, while others detail a visit by God the Father and Jesus Christ as separate beings, as in Smith's 1838 account, which Palmer notes is coincidental with a crisis which then developed around the Book of Mormon.[25] The 1838 version is the account which is officially accepted by the LDS church.[26] The earliest known account written by Joseph Smith himself indicates a visitation by Jesus Christ, but does not mention God the Father. Other details of this account differ from the official version[24].

[edit] Criticism that prophecies of Joseph Smith have failed

Main article: Prophecies of Joseph Smith, Jr.
Abanes, the Tanners, and the Institute for Religious Research contend that Joseph Smith could not be a genuine prophet because certain statements he allegedly made that they interpret as prophecies did not come true.[27][28][29] See prophecies of Joseph Smith, Jr. for list of prophecies.

[edit] "Money digging" activities

Main article: Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr.#Work as a treasure hunter and marriage to Emma Hale
Dan Vogel claims that Joseph Smith's treasure hunting activities in his youth[30] (couched by critics as "money digging") lends support to the theory that he fabricated the Book of Mormon.[31] Smith was employed to find treasure using a variety of methods, including scrying[32] and use of divining rods. In 1826, after a former business partner accused him of not coming through on a promise to find treasure, Smith was arrested, and examined by a justice of the peace in Bainbridge, New York.[33]
The Encyclopedia of Mormonism asserts that treasure hunting and divining practices associated with it were common during the life of Joseph Smith; and that it was a necessary part of his development in discerning good from evil.[34] Additionally, apologist Jeff Lindsay claims that the account of the arrest and conviction was either fabricated or mischaracterized in order to defame Smith.[35]

[edit] Kinderhook plates

Main article: Kinderhook plates
Critics, including Fawn M. Brodie,[36] the Tanners, and the Institute for Religious Research[37] call Smith's ability to translate into question by pointing to a purported hoax involving the Kinderhook plates, ancient-looking artifacts reportedly planted in 1843 in an Indian mound near Kinderhook, Illinois. According to Wilbur Fugate in 1879[38], the plates were carefully forged by men from Kinderhook who were hoping to trick their Mormon neighbors in Nauvoo. These critics cite a number of statements to demonstrate that Smith attempted to translate the plates, including page 372 of the Documentary History of the Church (DHC): "I [Joseph Smith] have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth".[39]
Diane Wirth argues that the relevant portion of the History of the Church may have been ghost-written by William Clayton, Smith's scribe, despite being in Smith's voice, and cannot be fully attributed to Smith.[40] Other researchers question the reliability of the Fugate confession and point to evidence that the plates could have been authentic.[41]

[A Mad Dog]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

That verse is asking for his fellow Christians to pray TO GOD for him. I don't see anything in the Bible saying "go ahead and pray to any corpse you like."

You've just earned yourself a whole basket full of shiny new infraction points for twisting God's Holy Word, papist scum.

You do not think that the Blessed Virgin Mary is a fellow Christian?

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

She's dead.

[A Mad Dog]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

She's dead.

How can she be dead whenever she is alive with the Lord in Heaven? Does not the Scripture say, "I am the God of the living and not of the dead"? In light of this Scripture, how can she be dead as you would have her portrayed?

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

Her body is dead. How can she hear you?

[Miss April]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

Her body is dead. How can she hear you?

That's right Brother Heathen Amen

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Was Hitler Sent to Heaven or Hell?

You do not think that the Blessed Virgin Mary is a fellow Christian?

She's dead.

Her body is dead. How can she hear you?

Brother HB has nailed this perfectly.

Nowhere in the Holy Bible does God tell us that we can or should attempt to pray to dead people, be they True Christians(tm) or not. My father (Pastor Lamentations Flint) is up in Heaven with Jesus right now, but you don't see me on my knees praying to him, do you?

In fact, communing with the dead is a sin. I wonder if the papist dog can quote the pertinent Scripture on that...