[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

how is the earth only 6000 years old?? it has been proven time and time again that the earth is billions of years old. do you know why they dont teach this stuff in school? because its not real

You might want to take a look at THIS thread. The universe will be 6,012 this year, based on Creation Science calculations.

[Jonnii]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

creation is not taught in every school in the world. [monkey-worshiping propoganda deleted] there is jsut some proof of the age of the earth, and how is another thread about saying its in the bible going to persuade me??? its jsut as bad as the proof in the video

[Jonnii]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

how am i supposed to show you proof if my links get deleted???

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

how am i supposed to show you proof if my links get deleted???

This is not a debate forum. We are here to praise Jesus. Please read through THIS thread which explains our policies.

[joe707]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

It seems to me there is a bit of confusion around this topic. Truth, faith, knowledge and belief are terms being used interchangeably, to everyone’s quite visible disgust.

If you are relating the scientific method to Biblical doctrine, there are going to be big, big problems. One man’s ‘fact’ is another man’s piece of cr*p – that much is certain. The scientific method and Biblical doctrine differ in methodology, in conclusions, but - most importantly - differ in the nature of axioms implicit within each system.

For (empirical) science these axioms are statements about the observable world, around which inductive theorems are built.

And Biblical proof really boils down to a ‘first cause’ argument. It could be expressed thus: Truth always and only resides in the word of God. The KJV1611 Bible is the exclusive word of God. Therefore, the KJV1611 Bible is the sole claimant to truth. The first two are axioms that can't be ‘proved’ according to the inductive scientific method. And attempting to ‘prove’ via deductive logic results in circular or recursive logic, as others have pointed out. So something else is badly needed! Why even bother arguing for empirical validation of a flat earth, or a 6000 year old universe? It just won’t work if you use the same axioms as defined by the scientific method. It’s like turning up to bat with a sand wedge. You’re using the wrong tools guys.

The scientific method just doesn’t explain first cause well, as Pastor Ezekiel quite rightly pointed out. And scripture can not avoid the recursive problems of circular logic when it comes to first cause, as others here have noted. There are good reasons for the respective limitations in both, and that’s where things get really interesting.......!

Just my 2 cents worth.

Joe

[Nobar King]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

I didn't understand that, Joe. You write too complicated-like. Are you agreeing that God is real, or are you here to argue against a supreme creator?

[joe707]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

I’m here for many reasons Nobar!

There are things we have all observed about the world that are hard to dismiss. Scientific developments. Technology. It is an order of knowledge that we all experience.

But to talk of God? That’s a different language. It’s not the same world. All the theories and all the cleverness in the world won’t get you there. They won’t even get you on the bus at the end of your street. Do you know what that means? Do you know what it requires, to go beyond the word and the proof and all of that nonsense?

[Nobar King]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

All the theories and all the cleverness in the world won’t get you there. They won’t even get you on the bus at the end of your street. Do you know what that means? Do you know what it requires, to go beyond the word and the proof and all of that nonsense?

I don't need any help getting on the bus, thank you. You didn't answer my question, so I'm going to consider you a hostile visitor until you answer or confirm my suspicions.

You lost the 'under investigation' tag because you made a certain number of posts, but I have my eye on you. You can be sure of that.

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

It seems to me there is a bit of confusion around this topic. Truth, faith, knowledge and belief are terms being used interchangeably, to everyone’s quite visible disgust.

If you are relating the scientific method to Biblical doctrine, there are going to be big, big problems. One man’s ‘fact’ is another man’s piece of cr*p – that much is certain. The scientific method and Biblical doctrine differ in methodology, in conclusions, but - most importantly - differ in the nature of axioms implicit within each system.

For (empirical) science these axioms are statements about the observable world, around which inductive theorems are built.

And Biblical proof really boils down to a ‘first cause’ argument. It could be expressed thus: Truth always and only resides in the word of God. The KJV1611 Bible is the exclusive word of God. Therefore, the KJV1611 Bible is the sole claimant to truth. The first two are axioms that can't be ‘proved’ according to the inductive scientific method. And attempting to ‘prove’ via deductive logic results in circular or recursive logic, as others have pointed out. So something else is badly needed! Why even bother arguing for empirical validation of a flat earth, or a 6000 year old universe? It just won’t work if you use the same axioms as defined by the scientific method. It’s like turning up to bat with a sand wedge. You’re using the wrong tools guys.

The scientific method just doesn’t explain first cause well, as Pastor Ezekiel quite rightly pointed out. And scripture can not avoid the recursive problems of circular logic when it comes to first cause, as others here have noted. There are good reasons for the respective limitations in both, and that’s where things get really interesting.......!

Just my 2 cents worth.

Joe

Joe, I can see your mind off-tracking, but I am a Pastor and it's my job to notice, correct your trajectory, and save you from the abyss.

There is no recursive logic in Scripture, Joe. Merely our inability to understand it. One cannot have a watch without a watchmaker. Do you have a watch, Joe? Then my point is proved. We are all watches and we tick to the eternal spring of our unseen watchmaker.

[Nobar King]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

That's what I wanted to write, but I didn't know it until you posted it. Thank you for your wise words.

[joe707]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

I don't need any help getting on the bus, thank you. You didn't answer my question, so I'm going to consider you a hostile visitor until you answer or confirm my suspicions.

You lost the 'under investigation' tag because you made a certain number of posts, but I have my eye on you. You can be sure of that.

Thankyou Nobar. You want to know whether I say God is real? Whether I say God, the creator, is real? These aren’t necessarily the same things.

You must know from my previous posts that I would like to discuss these things with anyone interested. There are statements of Biblical scripture that I really do want to go into. I don’t know if you see how important they are. But they are not tick-box answers. I am sorry that I don’t fit those neat boxes. But those boxes were never meant to be filled in the way you think. Can we at least clear the boards on the whole issue of what is real, or what is proven? As I said in another thread, I’m not really interested in proving anything. Truth of that order never comes from proof; it is way too important for that.

[joe707]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

Joe, I can see your mind off-tracking, but I am a Pastor and it's my job to notice, correct your trajectory, and save you from the abyss.

There is no recursive logic in Scripture, Joe. Merely our inability to understand it. One cannot have a watch without a watchmaker. Do you have a watch, Joe? Then my point is proved. We are all watches and we tick to the eternal hand of our unseen watchmaker.

Ah, Pastor, interesting choice of analogy there! The watchmaker? Ha! The circular aspect only arises if you are talking about proof in the (deductive) logical sense. Many posters here are pretty keen to show (correctly) that the argument for the existence of God is indefensible via logic alone.

But for all concerned, it remains an intriguing question. First cause is not something that is easily answered by either theory or scripture. There is always something nagging about anything coming into being from nothing, or anything having always existed. Don't you think?

[Nobar King]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

Are you crazy?

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

Ah, Pastor, interesting choice of analogy there! The watchmaker? Ha! The circular aspect only arises if you are talking about proof in the (deductive) logical sense. Many posters here are pretty keen to show (correctly) that the argument for the existence of God is indefensible via logic alone.

But for all concerned, it remains an intriguing question. First cause is not something that is easily answered by either theory or scripture. There is always something nagging about anything coming into being from nothing, or anything having always existed. Don't you think?

Of course not! Deduction cannot explain miracles. They are counterintuitive. But then, so is quantum physics. So is the study of Quantum mechanics useless merely because we cannot understand it? No, not as long as it leads to a greater understanding of GOD.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

Biblical proof really boils down to a ‘first cause’ argument. It could be expressed thus: Truth always and only resides in the word of God. The KJV1611 Bible is the exclusive word of God. Therefore, the KJV1611 Bible is the sole claimant to truth. The first two are axioms that can't be ‘proved’ according to the inductive scientific method. And attempting to ‘prove’ via deductive logic results in circular or recursive logic, as others have pointed out.

That's all true, friend, and I think it points directly at the limitations of those tools.

So something else is badly needed!

Amen, something else IS badly need, friend. That something else is called Faith. Faith is how I know that the first two premises are true. They can't be proven any other way. Let that be a lesson to anyone who doubts the power of Faith.

Pastor Billy-Reuben