a little confused

[Joshua the Godmocker]

I'm a little confused about some of the science on these pages. I was only converted a few years ago, and before that I trusted entirely in science. I want to get closer to God, but there are a few things here that don't seem to make much sense to me....
1) Starting with http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=44533, where brother True Disciple seems to claim that reason is a demonic thing, and not of God. For example, he quotes 2 Corinthians 4:3-5, but that seems to me to be saying that to the unbelievers, the gospel means nothing. I don't believe what is being said is that rationalism is not of God.
He also talks about Genesis, specifically the story in which Adam and Eve ate the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But surely, if they ate the fruit of that tree, that would allow them to know what they were doing was right or wrong, rather than giving them the ability to rationalise.
His quoting from proverbs I'd rather not go into, because he seems to be confusing Wisdom, Knowledge and Rationalism (which is more the ability to work out by drawing from knowledge). I'll be happy to talk more if True Disciple wants to correct me.
Just for the record, rationalising is saying that "As proposition A is true and proposition B is true, therefore proposition A and B must be true." Just so we're reading from the same page, as it were.
2) I'm rather concerned about the experiments lain out in the topic "http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=45427&page=1"
Putting aside for the moment that experiments need rational to interpret, I'd like to look at the three experiments in turn.
Experiment 1) If we assume for the moment that the Earth is spinning at 1000 miles an hour, then by extension, everything on it is spinning at the same speed, right? If I jump, then I land in the same place because when I jump, I am still moving the same speed with the earth. Just look at Long Jumpers. They don't land where they left off, because they already have motion forward, and so if the earth is moving round, then if I jump straight up, I land back where I started because I'm still moving at the same speed horizontally as the earth. If we take the truck example, if someone jumps straight up inside an enclosed truck (to ignore wind resistance) moving along a flat, straight road, they would ALWAYS land where they jumped from, it doesn't matter whether the truck is going at 10 mph or 100,000 mph. Because they are moving with the truck.
Experiment 2) If we assume the only gravity acting on us humans is the Earth (it's not, but the other effects are so small, we can ignore them), and we consider the mass ratio of a single human to the Earth (~100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000:1), then we find it is many, many times more massive than that of a balloon to even a tiny square of paper (~1:1000, even in a fully inflated balloon). Therefore, surely, the effect of gravity is so small, we can only feel the effects of really massive bodies at really close distance?
Experiment 3) Surely the pictures from space prove that the Earth is round? You can photograph it from any angle, and it appears to be flat. Surely, that shows that the Earth is close enough a sphere.
Just take a ball. Close one eye. No matter what direction you look at it, it appears flat. And yet you can feel it's a ball. Can't we apply the same logic to the Earth?
3) http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=40617
Surely you contradict yourself? Brother Alex says that a sphere cannot have 4 corners, but by the same token, a circle cannot have four corners either. If we assume that Revelations 7:1 is talking about Metaphorical corners (in the same way that people still talk about the four corners, despite them believing the earth is round), then circle may just mean it appears circular when one is sitting/standing on it. And as for those 'real' pictures... The first is an advert, and has been digitally altered to make it look like the world ends, and the other three appear to be paintings.
I'm sure there's more... I'm going to go and Pray for a while, and see if Jesus will help me understand. But in the mean time, I would be more than happy to hear your thoughts on this.
By the way, I've heard "intelligent pulling" mentioned a couple of times. Could someone draw me a diagram, please, because I don't really understand it...

[Lisa H]

Re: a little confused

I'm a little confused...

Yes you are. Why would you start a whole new post for existing topics. I would suggest you stop questioning the Bible as being wrong.

[Joshua the Godmocker]

Re: a little confused

Yes you are. Why would you start a whole new post for existing topics. I would suggest you stop questioning the Bible as being wrong.

I am not suggesting that the Bible is wrong. If you'll note, I did actually offer an alternative interpretation, rather than just say that those passages are outright wrong. With respect, I made it very clear that I wanted explanations as to why my reasoning was wrong, and I was not simply saying "all these threads are wrong, and here's why:"
And I started a new post because in each of the threads, every time someone brings up a dissenting opinion, they are immediately blasted as 'going to hell', without any justification. You can't simply say "Because the Bible says so," because by the same justification, I could say my argument holds true "because the bible says so." It's no different to a judge sentencing an innocent man to death because the Judge thinks the man may have done the crime.

[Seth Campbell]

Re: a little confused

I am not suggesting that the Bible is wrong. If you'll note, I did actually offer an alternative interpretation, rather than just say that those passages are outright wrong. With respect, I made it very clear that I wanted explanations as to why my reasoning was wrong, and I was not simply saying "all these threads are wrong, and here's why:"
And I started a new post because in each of the threads, every time someone brings up a dissenting opinion, they are immediately blasted as 'going to hell', without any justification. You can't simply say "Because the Bible says so," because by the same justification, I could say my argument holds true "because the bible says so." It's no different to a judge sentencing an innocent man to death because the Judge thinks the man may have done the crime.

If you go to each one of the threads you linked to, you'll find the answers to all of your questions.

Most of the time when somebody brings up why we are wrong, it's because they either "know in their heart that God wouldn't do that" or they are severely cherry picking the Bible. If you can point out how we are Biblically wrong in any of those threads go for it.

[Lisa H]

Re: a little confused

I am not suggesting that the Bible is wrong. If you'll note, I did actually offer an alternative interpretation, rather than just say that those passages are outright wrong. With respect, I made it very clear that I wanted explanations as to why my reasoning was wrong, and I was not simply saying "all these threads are wrong, and here's why:"
And I started a new post because in each of the threads, every time someone brings up a dissenting opinion, they are immediately blasted as 'going to hell', without any justification. You can't simply say "Because the Bible says so," because by the same justification, I could say my argument holds true "because the bible says so." It's no different to a judge sentencing an innocent man to death because the Judge thinks the man may have done the crime.

You do not need to interpret the the Bible, it is the Word of the Lord and is pure the way it is written. If you want or need some more advice on understanding the truth, then do not argue against the topic. Instead seek guidance in understanding. The Bible will always be correct, for it is word of the Lord.

[Joshua the Godmocker]

Re: a little confused

You do not need to interpret the the Bible, it is the Word of the Lord and is pure the way it is written. If you want or need some more advice on understanding the truth, then do not argue against the topic. Instead seek guidance in understanding. The Bible will always be correct, for it is word of the Lord.

I'm sorry, can we just look at a small part of what you said there?

You do not need to interpret the the Bible

Can I assume, therefore, that since being saved, you have never done a single hour's work on the Sabbath, that no man is allowed to touch you when you are menstruating (because during that time you are unclean), that you do not eat impure animals, that you have killed all (by stoning or otherwise) Homosexuals, adulterers and their ilk that have crossed your path? If you have, then I do apologise. If, on the other hand, you seem to skip over those parts of the scripture, you are 'interpreting' the scripture.
there is no way around it, I'm afraid.

[Brother Alex]

Re: a little confused

3) http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=40617
Surely you contradict yourself? Brother Alex says that a sphere cannot have 4 corners, but by the same token, a circle cannot have four corners either. If we assume that Revelations 7:1 is talking about Metaphorical corners (in the same way that people still talk about the four corners, despite them believing the earth is round), then circle may just mean it appears circular when one is sitting/standing on it.

I'm sorry for not having explained myself more clearly. As a learned creation cosmologist I will try to answer your questions in accordance with God's own word and ,hopefully, clear out this misunderstanding.

On the first hand we have Isaiah 40:22 which clearly states:

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

On the other hand we have Revelation 7:1 which goes like this:

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

You are correct in your speculations that a circle cannot have corners as a square would do. However, we do read the Bible as it is, and by trying to interpret it to better fit our own theories would only send us straight on a pathway to hell.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

By following that advise, this only leaves us one conclusion. When it says corners in Revelation 7:1, it is really referring to the corners inside the circle as the following diagram shows:

By the way, I've heard "intelligent pulling" mentioned a couple of times. Could someone draw me a diagram, please, because I don't really understand it...

Sister Rogers gave a good explanation on the subject here so I won't go into more details with this. Here is a good diagram for better understanding:

[A Follower]

Re: a little confused

I'm a little confused about some of the science on these pages. I was only converted a few years ago, and before that I trusted entirely in science. I want to get closer to God, but there are a few things here that don't seem to make much sense to me....

You are either with God or you aren't. God doesn't accept someone who half believes scientism and half believes God.

Matthew 12:30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

1) Starting with http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=44533, where brother True Disciple seems to claim that reason is a demonic thing, and not of God. For example, he quotes 2 Corinthians 4:3-5, but that seems to me to be saying that to the unbelievers, the gospel means nothing. I don't believe what is being said is that rationalism is not of God.
He also talks about Genesis, specifically the story in which Adam and Eve ate the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But surely, if they ate the fruit of that tree, that would allow them to know what they were doing was right or wrong, rather than giving them the ability to rationalise.
His quoting from proverbs I'd rather not go into, because he seems to be confusing Wisdom, Knowledge and Rationalism (which is more the ability to work out by drawing from knowledge). I'll be happy to talk more if True Disciple wants to correct me.
Just for the record, rationalising is saying that "As proposition A is true and proposition B is true, therefore proposition A and B must be true." Just so we're reading from the same page, as it were.

When the Bible says reason is the enemy of God, as brother Disciple explained, who are you to question that? Do you not have faith? Do you not trust God to know what's best for you? You should not let these questioning thoughts enter your head, instead you should let Jesus guide your thinking.

Have you not read Hebrews 11:1?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is the evidence of God! Faith is evidence of everything you can't see. If you can't see what causes things to fall, then Faith is proof that God made it fall.

Faith is knowing God is there and God is right. Trust Jesus to save you from hellfire.

2) I'm rather concerned about the experiments lain out in the topic "http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=45427&page=1"
Putting aside for the moment that experiments need rational to interpret, I'd like to look at the three experiments in turn.

Experiment 1) If we assume for the moment that the Earth is spinning at 1000 miles an hour, then by extension, everything on it is spinning at the same speed, right? If I jump, then I land in the same place because when I jump, I am still moving the same speed with the earth. Just look at Long Jumpers. They don't land where they left off, because they already have motion forward, and so if the earth is moving round, then if I jump straight up, I land back where I started because I'm still moving at the same speed horizontally as the earth. If we take the truck example, if someone jumps straight up inside an enclosed truck (to ignore wind resistance) moving along a flat, straight road, they would ALWAYS land where they jumped from, it doesn't matter whether the truck is going at 10 mph or 100,000 mph. Because they are moving with the truck.

Very good, your long jump example is indeed good evidence of the world not spinning, because as you say if the world was spinning the long jumpers wouldn't need to run fast, they could just jump up, and the longer they stayed in the air, the farther the earth would move underneath them.

With the truck example you are right to rebuke the scientists for ignoring wind resistance. If the world was a ball surrounded by a bubble of air and that ball was spinning at 1000 mph then the surface would be suffering constant 1000 mph winds, that's like 10 times as strong as a hurricane. Jumping up in the flatbed of a truck would push you straight off with that kind of wind.

Experiment 2) If we assume the only gravity acting on us humans is the Earth (it's not, but the other effects are so small, we can ignore them), and we consider the mass ratio of a single human to the Earth (~100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000:1), then we find it is many, many times more massive than that of a balloon to even a tiny square of paper (~1:1000, even in a fully inflated balloon). Therefore, surely, the effect of gravity is so small, we can only feel the effects of really massive bodies at really close distance?

Yes, if gravity works as scientists claim only massive bodies would affect things at a really close distance. Now how can the sun keep earth in orbit if the earth is millions of miles away from the sun? Gravity could not affect earth because it's too far away.

Also if gravity, heliocentric solar system and round earth were true, then the earth would be moving around the sun at a speed of 9 miles per second, well over the escape velocity of earth, so if gravity were true we would actually be weightless!

Experiment 3) Surely the pictures from space prove that the Earth is round? You can photograph it from any angle, and it appears to be flat. Surely, that shows that the Earth is close enough a sphere.
Just take a ball. Close one eye. No matter what direction you look at it, it appears flat. And yet you can feel it's a ball. Can't we apply the same logic to the Earth?

How about you give an example of a picture supposedly taken from space and I'll explain how it's doctored and doesn't fit the round earth theory.

3) http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=40617
Surely you contradict yourself? Brother Alex says that a sphere cannot have 4 corners, but by the same token, a circle cannot have four corners either. If we assume that Revelations 7:1 is talking about Metaphorical corners (in the same way that people still talk about the four corners, despite them believing the earth is round), then circle may just mean it appears circular when one is sitting/standing on it. And as for those 'real' pictures... The first is an advert, and has been digitally altered to make it look like the world ends, and the other three appear to be paintings.

Brother Alex has graciously explained where the four corners are, I'll trust you see to reason now.

As far as the accusations of altered pictures go, you claim three are paintings, but how can there be paint on your computer screen? Internet doesn't work like that, those pictures are regular pictures just like the first. And yes, the first is altered, but only to add a logo to the top right, I can't tell from the other pixels it's shopped, and I've seen quite a few shops in my time.

I'm sure there's more... I'm going to go and Pray for a while, and see if Jesus will help me understand. But in the mean time, I would be more than happy to hear your thoughts on this.
By the way, I've heard "intelligent pulling" mentioned a couple of times. Could someone draw me a diagram, please, because I don't really understand it...

By intelligent pulling it is explained how some things don't fall while others do. Birds have weight, but they don't fall back to earth when they jump into the air. An equally sized rodent, say a rat, will fall down after jumping. Gravity only takes into account weight of objects, so according to gravity both the bird and the rat should fall or neither should. Reality disagrees, and not only disagrees but it is so consistent that there has to be an intelligent effort behind the decision of whether to let something fly in the air or pull it back to earth. The only being that is intelligent enough and has the capability to pull of all this pulling is God.

[Lisa H]

Re: a little confused

I'm sorry, can we just look at a small part of what you said there?

Can I assume, therefore, that since being saved, you have never done a single hour's work on the Sabbath, that no man is allowed to touch you when you are menstruating (because during that time you are unclean), that you do not eat impure animals, that you have killed all (by stoning or otherwise) Homosexuals, adulterers and their ilk that have crossed your path? If you have, then I do apologise. If, on the other hand, you seem to skip over those parts of the scripture, you are 'interpreting' the scripture.
there is no way around it, I'm afraid.

Ok lets look at the points one by one.
1. You have never done a single hour's work on the Sabbath.
Correct, I do not work on the Sabbath.

2. That no man is allowed to touch you when you are menstruating (because during that time you are unclean).
Why would you ask a women that question. I am not married and other factors are involded, so it is irrelevant question.

3. that you do not eat impure animals,
If the Bible tells us not eat something, then yes.

4. that you have killed all (by stoning or otherwise) Homosexuals, adulterers and their ilk that have crossed your path? If you have, then I do apologise. If, on the other hand, you seem to skip over those parts of the scripture, you are 'interpreting' the scripture. there is no way around it, I'm afraid.
I am not a law enforcer so I do not understand how this could apply to me. It does not mean I have to personal kill them.
The Bible verse says;
Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: a little confused

Nevermind, Brothers and sisters. He just admitted in his introduction thread that he came here under satan's orders to sow seeds of dissention and to mock God.