[Wh1te p0w3r]

Re: Hello, I noticed that many of you don't understand evolution.

They are both true.

White people came from God.

Black people evolved from monkeys.

[Talitha]

Re: Hello, I noticed that many of you don't understand evolution.

ART THOU RETARDED?

To whom do you refer?

[gidalo]

Re: Hello, I noticed that many of you don't understand evolution.

ART THOU RETARDED?

[One-eyed Jack]

Continuation of reply to GodSpoons

If I may continue to bore you, GodSpoons:

I suspect the root problem here is the hypothetical failure of logic as a guide to reality.

I believe it was the Greek philosopher Parmenides who noted that logic cannot be used to prove that logic itself is a reliable guide to any Reality worth a capital "R". (A logical proof of the reliability of logic inevitably fails on grounds of self-referential circularity.)

For most pragmatic purposes people assume that logic does say something about Reality. But in the World of the Faithful, it is not assumed that logic adequately describes Matters of High Faith.

In other words, you can hit a Christian with a logical proof that would make that argumentative b*stard Socrates nod in agreement, and the Christian will just smile tightly and say, "That is not what my faith tells me, and so you are wrong."

----

Once upon a time a great Christian king coveted the riches of a far-away kingdom. But he knew that the Bible condemns unjust war, and so he sought a justification for the invasion of that far-away kingdom. There were in his retinue certain unscrupulous men -- liars, thieves, spoonbenders, chicken-molesters -- and they presented him with falsified evidence that the distant country planned to attack the king.

Wise and clearseeing advisers told the king that the evidence was false, indeed that, logically speaking, it was laughable; but the king just smiled tightly and said, "That's not what my faith tells me, and so you are wrong." Thus the nation went to war based on faith instead of logic and evidence, and hundreds of thousands of innocent people lost their lives.

The point of this story is that faith-think has a very, VERY powerful influence in the world right now, this very instant.

----

Often this dichotomy is cast as superstition versus science, because superstition is illogical while science relies on logic...although science, like logic, has to make an initial leap of faith: it assumes that the evidence actually says something about a some external reality.

Now then! Historically I think humans have used logic in very solid, very pragmatic day-to-day decisions. (Fire HOT yesterday, burn Moop's hand! Moop not put hand in fire today.) Where elements of chance or chaos obscure logical causality, magical thinking and superstition comes into play. (Lightning strike Moop's sister, smoke come out of her ears. Moop not know why lightning do that! Moop pray to god Gorblenok, maybe lightning not strike Moop.)

That pattern persists today, but it is overlaid with very powerful social constructs which encourage patterns of faith-think. I can go into that if you want; or you can Google terms like "Dawkins meme religion". Caution: you are probably damned to Hell just by looking these things up. God loveth not Google when it is used against Him.

----

Evangelical part: Of course, Christianity stands outside and above all logic and all false faiths. There is one God, and we Christians know who He is!

Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction. Habakkuk 1:12

Depart from us, O logic! Trouble us not, O rules of evidentiary science -- yea, science falsely so-called! For the proper science is the study of the Lord's creation, and not the denial of the Lord! Let not our Godly faith be troubled by the snares of Socrates, far less the doomclangers of Darwin and the dorkery of Dawkins!

Amen.

~~ OEJ

[One-eyed Jack]

GodSpoons, your logic is not correct.

GodSpoons, I want to take on a few of your points for a moment if I may.

Most of what you write about causation is not logically tenable. If there is an omnipotent being which exists independent of time and external to our universe, then by virtue of His omnipotence He certainly can intervene in causality. Therefore an omnipotent being can be the Prime Mover, or the first cause in the creation of the universe.

Likewise, being external to the universe is not the same thing as non-existence. See, for example, the various multiverse theories of Hugh Everett, Andrei Linde and others; or 'brane theory. In these theories other universes exist, and though they are external to ours they may "touch" at some points and influence our universe. ('Brane theory hypothesizes that the momentary contact between our universe and another universe on a separate 'brane was the event astrophysicists call the Big Bang.) Gerardus Bouw, the self-titled "Biblical Astronomer", posits a "Throne of God" which is external to the universe, but from which God created and rules the universe. Again, it is omnipotence which makes this possible.

(Supernatural omnipotence is kind an ace-in-the-hole for God; since He can do anything, most arguments from causation, extra-universal non-existence, and so forth can be deflected simply by appealing to awesome supernatural powers.)

All that said, I am much in sympathy with your use of logic to approach the problem of God and creation. Many kudos for your effort!

The argument from perfection is problematic because we do not have a full understanding of God's history and psychology. If God is in fact timeless and all-knowing, we really can't understand His being -- mind, if He has a mind -- with our cheap, Sears-Roebuck human minds.

I guess in this context we really don't know what a "perfect" being would be like. Maybe perfection requires the externalization of some aesthetic drama involving the perfect being's complex psyche.

Then again, maybe God was just lonely. As the dynamic philosophical team Three Dog Night reminds us, one is the loneliest number.

This is a fairly long post. I'll follow it up in a minute.

~~ OEJ

[SibSpi]

Re: Hello, I noticed that many of you don't understand evolution.

We enjoy sane posts by people as yourself. However you are mistaken.
The Bible says 6,000 years and God created everything. Have you ever witnessed this so called "evolving" in action?

So in other words you know nothing. You come in here shooting your mouth off at us True Christians when you really have zero to back yourself up with.

We have a book dictated by God. We have two thousand years of documented, irrefutable proof of the power of Christ and his wonderous miracles. You eviloutionists are a joke. Once you can explain to me how Christ walked on water or raised people from the dead I might take you a little more serious.

Ok, I find this all rather amusing.

If your god (yes, lowercase 'g') created the earth some 6000 years ago, where did dinosaurs fit into the picture?

If your god created adam, who went on to create lilith (yes, lilith, demon, whore, whatever), and eve in this so called 'garden of eden', tell me, where is the evidence to support the existence of this garden? Show me on a map where it is located.


You say the book was 'dictated by god'; As far as I'm concerned, it could have been written up by a man living out his years in a prison cell. Some pretty impressive novels have come from lifetime prisoners before.

You accept your bible as irrefutable proof of the existence of your god. You subscribe to all its laws, as vague as they may be. Some of your members go on to have direct references to passages in your bible, citing those as the laws of life. Let me list for you the things I've seen you people do in videos, that are in direct contradiction to what you say. (And don't you even DARE suggest that your god is going to forgive you for your actions, because it is in its service (yes, 'it', not 'he', not 'she', not 'god', just 'it')

1. Hypocrites: You guys are the biggest hypocrites I have seen in my life.
2. The Unforgiving: Judging someone to eternal damnation and forgiving them their trespasses are two separate actions. You can't follow the former with the latter, or you are suggesting they will not suffer eternal damnation. It's not even your place to judge them, it's your god's place to judge them.
3. Homosexuals: I've seen some devout christians who are homosexual. But wait, they're damned for eternity, right? Why bother being christian then? If they lead christian lives, bar homosexuality, shouldn't your god be hard-coding their brains to drive their ill begotten ways from their minds?
4. Romans 1:29: "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers," You guys are full of unrighteousness, wickedness, debate, deceit and malice. To try deny these would for you to lie, another sin, as per your bible. You actively picket the burial processions of fallen soldiers; you are wicked and malevolent. You are hardly righteous through your basic defiance of your own religious laws. You are, right now, engaged in debate (the right thing for a 'true christian' would be to just suck it up and let people trample them, not argue the point).
5. Romans 1:30: "Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents," You are spiteful, you are proud and you boast. You are spiteful against those not of your church, that do not practise your ways. You are proud and boast of your self-proclaimed 'true christian' status.
6. Romans 1:31 "Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful" You are both implacable and unmerciful. You don't have mercy on those who's burials you picket, you judge them (unrighteously so) to eternal damnation. You are implacable, in that you can't be content to constrain your activities to your own group, you feel the need to damn everyone around you you judge unworthy, yet again, unrighteously so.
7. 1Corinthians 6:9 " Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind," Unrighteous as you are, you've all pretty much damned yourselves to hell, already. Great going. You are idolators; did your supposed jesus or god EVER, ONCE in your bible, which you claim is dictated by your god, ask you to idolise it? I'm fairly certain, having been forced to read through it several times myself, that neither your jesus or god did, once.
8. 1Corinthians 6:10 "Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." You frequently revile anyone against your ways. Great going, yet again.
9. Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." You are abominable. You lie. I hear NASA has specialised heat-shields that might protect your bottoms from those lakes which burneth with fire and brimstone (and maybe some tequila)


You've your own 'Pastor Ezekiel' to thank for all the above. It's in his own signature on these forums, after all.

You people are not quite so 'true' as you may believe yourselves to be. From what I've studied of your bible, during my time as a christian, I have met only one person who, from a third person perspective, it seemed subscribed in full to the 'laws' of your bible. He wasn't any of the above that I was aware of. He led a life of helping those who would try murder him in the street, if given the opportunity. He never once handed out judgment unto anyone, citing it as the will of god. He didn't even ever say that something was 'the will of god'. Whatever your god's silly whims and wills may be, ONLY YOUR GOD IS ALLOWED TO DECIDE WHAT THEY ARE, NOT A SINGLE ONE OF HIS LITTLE 'SHEEP'.


Anyway, I find you people rather pathetic. I'm an agnostic, myself. I'm just going to go through life trying to make it as comfortable for those around me that I would spend time with, regardless of whether it construes sinning or being devout to any given faith. If there's such a thing as a 'hell', chances are I'll be second in command down there, so I'll make sure to get you guys front-row seats on the rollercoaster down through the ninth gate.

[ultima]

Re: Hello, I noticed that many of you don't understand evolution.

Prove it. Where is this absurd evilution theory mentioned in the Holy Bible? Are we supposed to throw out 2,000 years of accumulated Bible study based on the word of a demon like you?

Well, let me reverse that one on you. Prove the Bible was divinely inspired. Evolution isn't evil. You know what is? Hatred towards others, and you seem to have a lot of it.

So apparently this Bible was divinely dictated. What about parts where God was explaining things people had no concept of or idea about. Such as dinosaurs or evolution. Is it not possible that they dumbed down the ideas to make sense to the general public or to themselves? How would you write about things you had no words for? You wouldn't. Can't take the Bible literally. Nice try though.
Fundamentalists 0. Rest of the sane world 1.

[GodSpoonsMeAtNight]

Re: Hello, I noticed that many of you don't understand evolution.

So in other words you know nothing. You come in here shooting your mouth off at us True Christians when you really have zero to back yourself up with.

We have a book dictated by God. We have two thousand years of documented, irrefutable proof of the power of Christ and his wonderous miracles. You eviloutionists are a joke. Once you can explain to me how Christ walked on water or raised people from the dead I might take you a little more serious.

You "Christians" are quite hilarious. Your superiority complex over the rest of the world is more appalling than that magical book you carry around that you continue to slam down everyone's throat.

It sickens me that the topic-creator tried to have a civilized discussion about evolution and even the mods outright attacked him, more so with personal attacks about how Darwin, the original theorist of evolution, was into bestiality and apparently heavy drugs. Why don't you debate the topic instead of resorting to personal attacks?

Please, someone with extensive knowledge on the subjects of science, logics, and debate try to debunk this post without resorting to "Darwin was into bestiality! evolution is devil-speak!!ARG!!!!"

If there are any intelligent christians out there, please give your opinions on this:



Every religion makes a certain number of claims about God and its role in the creation of all walks of life. The base point, however, is that there is God (and his kingdom, or...whatever) and then there is the world in which we exist. God is perfect; our world is imperfect, in classic definition and in logical necessity. But there are a number of reasons why God could not have created the universe as we know it. Firstly...

1. A creator must be separate from its creation.
2. God must exist in the universe (the entailment of all of existence); to exist outside of all of existence would be to not exist.
3. The universe could not have been created.

Furthermore, there is the problem that - ASIDE from the fact that "perfection" can only entail all of existence - a perfect being would have no reason to create something.

1. God is perfect.
2. God retained its perfection separate from the creation of the universe.
3. Creation requires a motive.
4. As a being that encompasses perfection, God would have no will/desire/ability to facilitate change.
5. A perfect being could not have created the universe.

God is also described as the "first cause"; as the universe is empirically governed by causality, it would appear that every single causal event in the universe could be traced back to the beginning cause of the universe. However, God could not have been this cause.

1. Causality is a natural property of the universe.
2. God, as necessarily separate from the universe, would not be governed by causality.
3. The first cause must be of the universe, as it is linked into the chain of causality.
4. God was not the first cause.

I would appreciate intelligent responses only.

[vTweak]

Re: Hello, I noticed that many of you don't understand evolution.

Well, i read the whole thread, and its pretty pathetic to say the least. On oneside, we have logical people who support there claims with facts, and on the other, religious fanatics who support there claims with bs.

Ezekial, its funny how you call yourself a "True Christian" yet you even said racial things such as "Chinks" a christian would never think that, that would be a sin. You and that other ugly she-he shoot down every claim someone makes about scientific theory. You say ScIeNtist, and you dont beleive anything thing they say. You even say that they pulled carbon dating at of there but. But thats a proved threory, proven with math and testing, i dont see anything in the bible or religion that is proven with math or testing. If you dont beleive in scientist, why are you even on a computer, you do know that computers were developed into the modern day computer by scientist right? I love how you completly shoot evolution down, then back it up with your BS demon and satin worship talk. But i ask you, how can you worship something you dont even believe? To worship god you have to believe him, to worship the devil you have to believe him. Now i bet your going to quote me, then call me a devil worshiper, which is funny, cause the way you guys talk, which is nothing how a "true christian" should talk i would think the same way about you.

Evolution is a process over millions of years. It is when a genetic mutation, helps the organism survive, or better itself, and then sometimes that quality spreads over the population of its species. Now your going to give me some BS link, thats totaly biased, writen by complete religous fanatics that just want to stop the "evil" that is disproving them. You will try to use science to disprove evolution, which is funny, due to the fact that you wont believe science that is right in front of your eyes.

As Christians, arent you supposed to save, or think that anyone can be saved, even the people you call "demons" or "devil worshipers"? You dont sound like you want to save them. You know why, and you result to name calling, mud slinging, and just down right making BS up? Because your scared. Your scared that your backed into the corner with no facts, scared that you just might be wrong about your little fairy tale. It's sad to see people go to such extremes with themselves.


Oh and its funny how you mentioned that Your KV w/e it is bible is the only bible, and christians who worship even a slightly different bible, or other faiths will burn in hell, thats funny. So God doesnt care about the other christians, only you "elite" christians. So there will be a handful of people who get into your so called heaven cause all other religions, and christianities are excluded. Oh well, The "All Knowing God" saw it coming.
well, im done with my rant, call me a demon, whatever, i dont believe in demons, therefore i cant be one.

[CharlesM.]

Re: Hello, I noticed that many of you don't understand evolution.

Prove it. Where is this absurd evilution theory mentioned in the Holy Bible? Are we supposed to throw out 2,000 years of accumulated Bible study based on the word of a demon like you?

I'm sorry sir but, is everything you read must have a Bible reference? The Bible doesn't talk about the Gravity Theory, but still, it is surely what you believe in.

[Mrs. Mary Whitford]

Re: Hello, I noticed that many of you don't understand evolution.

You two have been very wrong but reasonably well behaved so far. If you're going to continue flirting though, you might just find yourselves in quarantine where you can't give the GRID demons to decent people.

[Sociable]

Re: Hello, I noticed that many of you don't understand evolution.

ROFL!!! I ain't no /b/tard, dude! I've got too much self-respect and heterosexuality for that! You're welcome anyway. I couldn't stand by and watch superstition being fought with old wive's tales.

Ah sorry, but since tard is involved it must be homosexual so I will try to keep away the demons control

[Captain James T. Kirk]

Re: Hello, I noticed that many of you don't understand evolution.

Thanks /b/rother! Sometimes I get them mixed up, my brain not being fully developed and etc

ROFL!!! I ain't no /b/tard, dude! I've got too much self-respect and heterosexuality for that! You're welcome anyway. I couldn't stand by and watch superstition being fought with old wive's tales.

[Sociable]

Re: Hello, I noticed that many of you don't understand evolution.

LOL! Dude, I was with you up until this! You don't catch a cold from actually walking out in the cold, you get it from catching a virus! Staying warm isn't the best way to avoid one. Washing your hands and not touching your face is the best way. The reason more colds are caught in the winter is because people tend to spend more time in close proximity than they do in summer.
LOL!!

Thanks /b/rother! Sometimes I get them mixed up, my brain not being fully developed and etc

[Captain James T. Kirk]

Re: Hello, I noticed that many of you don't understand evolution.

If we walk out in the cold with clothing that is not warm enough then we will always catch a cold, no matter how powerful God is.There is said to be so many strands and mutations of the common cold that we will never find a sure way cure for it.

LOL! Dude, I was with you up until this! You don't catch a cold from actually walking out in the cold, you get it from catching a virus! Staying warm isn't the best way to avoid one. Washing your hands and not touching your face is the best way. The reason more colds are caught in the winter is because people tend to spend more time in close proximity than they do in summer.
LOL!!