[Rev. Dr. Davidson]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Shert,
There is one thing I admire about the court systems in the middle east. You're marched into court, tired, and if you're guilty they march you out the back and execute the sentence. Whether it's a bullet, or a hand amputation, it's done quickly and efficiently.

Muslims do their best'est to follow Islam, whether they are majority or not. When I first found this site, I was amazed that there are still Hard Core Christians who have passion for their religion no matter what. If you go up a few posts, you will see that I called other Christians hypocrites for choosing what to follow from the bible.

We do follow the bible, and tell people it's not open to interperation. Let's say that your government was to suddenly outlaw Shiara law, and executing traitors. How would you feel? Especially, if over half your population suddenly adopted the same stance. The only way you'd be able to accept it is if God told you to follow obey laws.

You see, God knew right from the very beginning that people would need a system of laws, and if He were to cover every little think in the bible, it would have been hundreds of thousands of books long. Like America's Bill of Rights, God put down the absolute laws that have no wiggle room.

It's a good thing there were no demoncrats in those days. They're doing a pretty good job of screwing out nation's laws, and they'd unrinate on the bible in public if they dared.

You see in Islam, God is God of love, whether he is followed or not. Allah gave prisoners of war rights, He prohibited killing women and children, He prohibited killing animals, He prohibited destroying buildings or burning land, He even prohibited fighting men who don't fight or with no weapons.
On the other hand, when I read some verses of the bible, I see destroying and killing everything including women/infants/sucklings and even animals.

Then for you to come and post a few verses from the Koran that encourage us to fight the disbelievers and call these verses abomination!! What about the verses in the bible!!
You see, you have to be fair. You have to apply the same point of view or logic on both religions.

You know of King David do you not? Some of the things he did back then, would be called crimes against humanity by demoncrats today. He was defending his tribe. God knew that the only true way to remove an enemy is to make sure there are none left.

I'll address some other points later, as I'm sick as ten dogs today.

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

There is a huge difference there, secular laws is not statc, but always changing and varying with country.
That's why the only complete solution is to simply defy it as secular law ("the law of the king" or "worldy authority") because it covers all secular law, in all it's variations.
The Bible is perfect enough to recognize this fact, that's why God worded it so it would be timeless, that it would never change, but still always be current:
By not only including the secular law of the day, God ensured that it is ALWAYS correct and current, and yet not changing!
The true Lord God (not this "allah" character.) is omniscent & perfect like that, and so is His Word.

If your true Lord God is omniscent & perfect, then why would he include such laws that are always changing!! If your true Lord God is perfect, then why would He prohibit something, Homosexuality, and tell you to follow secular laws that allows it??
If his words are perfect, then why would he tell you to follow completely different words, or laws, that are even contradict with His words??

But the life of Moohamhead however, it is static, and unchanging.
It has already happened, and thus cannot be changed.
And thus it could easily have been included.

The life/words of Mohammed is history and example of perfect Muslim. It is not the words of God to be included in the Koran.
Do you get it now Why the Hadith is not included in the Koran??


And if the Hadith isn't so important to you, then why can't you understand your religion without it?
Why MUST you have it to correctly interpretate your own religion?
You're contradicting yourself.

I never said that the Hadith is not important. I just said that it is not as important as the Koran.
We must have the Hadith because God told us to follow Mohammed. And that whenever we troubled, then we should look at the Koran and the life of Mohammed.

Secular law says nothing about us having to marry fags in our Church, or even accepting them.
It only forbids us killing them.

Secular laws say that, in some states, AMERICAN homosexuals can get married. Secular laws say that you cannot discriminate against Homosexuals. Your BIBLE says that you have to follow secular laws. Your AMERICAN, therefore you can get married to the same sex if you are a homosexual.

You see here is a conversation that could go on between a homosexual and your Lord.
your Lord: You will be sent to Hell for being a homosexual.
Homo: Why!!
your Lord: Didn't read in the Bible that homosexuality is abomination?
Homo: Yes, but I also read in the Bible that we have to follow secular laws, you see Lord, our secular laws say that it is OK to be homo.
your Lord: !!
Homo: Are you sending me to Hell because I was following the Bible.
your Lord: !!

You see, thats what I call a contradiction.

The life of Mohammed is not changing. So, our religion is fixed. Our religion does not change by time or location, thats what I call perfect. However, your Religion is changing BIG TIMES. There could be two True Christians following the same Bible, but doing COMPLETELY TWO DIFFERENT THINGS due to living in different parts of the world!!

I don't see this as being perfect religion!!

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Shert,
There is one thing I admire about the court systems in the middle east. You're marched into court, tired, and if you're guilty they march you out the back and execute the sentence. Whether it's a bullet, or a hand amputation, it's done quickly and efficiently.

Thanks for your Admiration Dr. Davidson. Some times I get the feeling that True Christians bad mouth everything about others, whether its good or bad. Like, Muslims, screw him he is no good at all. Or Jew, nothing good coming out of him.
To be able to see the good of the side you disagree with, is something honorable beyond description.

We do follow the bible, and tell people it's not open to interperation. Let's say that your government was to suddenly outlaw Shiara law, and executing traitors. How would you feel? Especially, if over half your population suddenly adopted the same stance. The only way you'd be able to accept it is if God told you to follow obey laws.

I would die trying to restore the Shari'a law. Its better than living under a law that contradicts most of what I believe in.

You see, God knew right from the very beginning that people would need a system of laws, and if He were to cover every little think in the bible, it would have been hundreds of thousands of books long. Like America's Bill of Rights, God put down the absolute laws that have no wiggle room.

Good thing you said it yourself, "if He were to cover every little think in the bible, it would have been hundreds of thousands of books long." I think the bible is a few thousand pages, right??
So, there is a lot of things the Bible didn't cover. Pastor Ezekiel said that everything you guys need is in the bible!!
On the other hand, I have SalvationSeeker calling the Koran imperfect because it told us to follow Mohammed's life!!

It's a good thing there were no demoncrats in those days. They're doing a pretty good job of screwing out nation's laws, and they'd unrinate on the bible in public if they dared.

No comments since I am not really involved in any Politics

You know of King David do you not? Some of the things he did back then, would be called crimes against humanity by demoncrats today. He was defending his tribe. God knew that the only true way to remove an enemy is to make sure there are none left.

I am not very aware of the whole story of King David, and I don't know your version of the story. So, no comment.

I'll address some other points later, as I'm sick as ten dogs today.

I hope you feel good.

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

If your true Lord God is omniscent & perfect, then why would he include such laws that are always changing!!

But He didn't include them like that, and that's part of my point.. You're not making sense.
He tells us to respect secular law but since secular law is always changing, it is not included in the Bible:
As whenever such law changed, the Bible would have become faulty.
God predicted secular law would change, and thus He DIDN'T include it.
It's only called "worldly authority" and "law of the king" in the Holy Bible:
Thus the Word of God can never become faulty when such law changes..
Contrary to if secular laws had been included in details.
Try to keep up eh?

If your true Lord God is perfect, then why would He prohibit something, Homosexuality, and tell you to follow secular laws that allows it??
If his words are perfect, then why would he tell you to follow completely different words, or laws, that are even contradict with His words??

Secular law doesn't tell us we have to be homersexuals ourselves, now does it?
It only disallows us from killing them, thus we have to commit ourselves to changing the secular laws to allow it..
This is quite simple really.

And also, there are limits in the Bible to how much we are to obey secular law:
We aren't allowed to follow a secular law that requires us to be homersexuals ourselves for example:
We are to obey God rather than men.

The life/words of Mohammed is history and example of perfect Muslim. It is not the words of God to be included in the Koran.
Do you get it now Why the Hadith is not included in the Koran??

Not really.
Because you're not making any sense at all:

First you say that you MUST look at the life of the prophet to understand your religion.
And now you simply agree that it is not part of your "word of god".
So logically, if that "word of god" is perfect, it wouldn't need to be interpretated through an outside source (the Hadith).
Now would it?

That's why I said it should have been included if your Qu'ran was to have been "perfect".
Then you would have understood the Qu'ran using only the Qu'ran, as it is now, you cannot understand the Qu'ran unless you know the Hadith..
Yes, very perfect, and very complete, indeed.

We doesn't need an outside source to understand the Holy Bible, the Word of God, because the true God (our God) can write a coherent and complete book.
Something your "god" seems uncapable of..

I never said that the Hadith is not important. I just said that it is not as important as the Koran.
We must have the Hadith because God told us to follow Mohammed. And that whenever we troubled, then we should look at the Koran and the life of Mohammed.

I get the "you must follow Moohamhead" part.
But not how you would need an outside source (Hadith) to truly understand the Qu'ran, if it was so perfect.
It contradicts simple logic.

Secular laws say that, in some states, AMERICAN homosexuals can get married. Secular laws say that you cannot discriminate against Homosexuals. Your BIBLE says that you have to follow secular laws. Your AMERICAN, therefore you can get married to the same sex if you are a homosexual.

You see here is a conversation that could go on between a homosexual and your Lord.
your Lord: You will be sent to Hell for being a homosexual.
Homo: Why!!
your Lord: Didn't read in the Bible that homosexuality is abomination?
Homo: Yes, but I also read in the Bible that we have to follow secular laws, you see Lord, our secular laws say that it is OK to be homo.
your Lord: !!
Homo: Are you sending me to Hell because I was following the Bible.
your Lord: !!
You see, thats what I call a contradiction.

I see why you are confused now.. You misunderstand:
Being a homersexual is a sin, nobody who is one can enter Heaven.
Christians must follow secular law.

There is no contradiction there, as:
Secular law does state that you aren't allowed to kill homersexuals, but it doesn't state that you have to be one!
Everyone has a CHOICE as to be a homersexual or not, and those who are, they commit sin, and thus they will go tell.
So the only thing it prevents us from is carrying out worldly punishment against homersexuals.
Quite simple really.

Read this ^ until you understand it.

The life of Mohammed is not changing. So, our religion is fixed. Our religion does not change by time or location, thats what I call perfect. However, your Religion is changing BIG TIMES. There could be two True Christians following the same Bible, but doing COMPLETELY TWO DIFFERENT THINGS due to living in different parts of the world!!
I don't see this as being perfect religion!!

True Christianity has NEVER changed at all.
There are false "christians" who rather follow their own heart than the Holy Bible.
They are not Christians, despite the fact that they like to call themselves that.

You probably think there are such things as "false muslims" too, don't you?
(As otherwise, why aren't you a Shiite instead, for example?)
So don't be a hypocrite.

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

True Christians who follow completely different paths due to different secular laws!! How is that not changing??

You also have a choice here:
1 - You either follow the Bible and kill people.
2 - You either follow the Bible and not kill those people.

Either Choice contradicts with the Bible!! Sounds perfect, doesn't it??

Here is another conversation:
Lord: Why didn't you kill Homosexuals?
TC: We followed your word and didn't kill them.
Lord: I told you to kill them.
TC: I know, but you also told us to follow secular laws!!
Lord: You still didn't carry my commands and kill those Homosexuals.
TC: If you are omniscient, then why did you tell us to follow such laws??
Lord: !!
TC: I either follow your commands and kill those people, and I am doomed.
TC: Or either follow your, other, commands and not kill them, and I am doomed.

What a pleasant place to be in!!

Finally,
Koran is words of God, so, we cannot include history in it. Unlike the Bible that contains words of Jesus, and stuff written by MANY people over a LONG period of time.

Since the Koran is words of God, and Hadith is history. They are different sources. Cool??
Koran, instructed us to look at the Hadith whenever there is trouble.
So, if there is a confusion, due to people, they are instructed by the Koran to look at the Hadith.
Thus, two different sources.

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

True Christians who follow completely different paths due to different secular laws!! How is that not changing??

Are you stupid in some way? Seriously?
GOD commands us to follow secular law, are you saying that to follow the will of God, we must disobey Him?

You also have a choice here:
1 - You either follow the Bible and kill people.
2 - You either follow the Bible and not kill those people.

Did you not get the part about following secular law?

Either Choice contradicts with the Bible!! Sounds perfect, doesn't it??

The only contradiction is in your mind.

Finally,
Koran is words of God, so, we cannot include history in it. Unlike the Bible that contains words of Jesus, and stuff written by MANY people over a LONG period of time.

God spoke through them, thus it was God speaking, and not people.
The Holy Bible, in the correct version, the KJV1611, is perfect and dictated by God Himself.
It is God who was speaking through the prophets, and Jesus was God, and it is God who tells us what He spoke through said prophets.
Simple.

Since the Koran is words of God, and Hadith is history. They are different sources. Cool??
Koran, instructed us to look at the Hadith whenever there is trouble.
So, if there is a confusion, due to people, they are instructed by the Koran to look at the Hadith.
Thus, two different sources.

You're dodging the whole argument, obviously you cannot answer it.

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Are you stupid in some way? Seriously?
GOD commands us to follow secular law, are you saying that to follow the will of God, we must disobey Him?

Did you not get the part about following secular law?

The only contradiction is in your mind.

Thats exactly what I am saying. Obviously, most secular laws around the world go against the Bible in some way, whether they prohibit something the Bible didn't like slavery or killing people, or allow something the Bible prohibits like homosexuality.
So, to obey God and follow secular laws, You will also disobey him by following his own commands!!

God spoke through them, thus it was God speaking, and not people.
The Holy Bible, in the correct version, the KJV1611, is perfect and dictated by God Himself.
It is God who was speaking through the prophets, and Jesus was God, and it is God who tells us what He spoke through said prophets.
Simple.

Thats what you believe!!


You're dodging the whole argument, obviously you cannot answer it.

I am not dodging anything, unlike some of you, I answer all your questions.

Your whole argument is:
If the Hadith is necessary to understand the Koran, then why isn't the Hadith included in the Koran??
If the Koran is perfect, then why do you need other sources??

I think I summarized your argument, right??
Now, allow me to answer these argument by copy/paste from my previous posts.

Copy/Paste:
"Koran is words of God, so, we cannot include history in it."
That answers why the Hadith is not included.

Copy/Paste:
" Koran, instructed us to look at the Hadith whenever there is trouble.
So, if there is a confusion, due to people, they are instructed by the Koran to look at the Hadith.
Thus, two different sources."
That answers why the Hadith is important to understand Koran.


If I misunderstood your argument, please enlighten me with more details.

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

If I misunderstood your argument, please enlighten me with more details.

You simply seem totally incapable of understanding it.
And it cannot be explained much clearer.

That isn't very strange though.. The Holy KJV1611 states:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
For they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14

And if you accept the fact that the Qu'ran needs the Hadith to be understood correctly..
Then BY DEFINITION, it would be incomplete. And thus it cannot be perfect!
Case closed.

Do you have shortbuses for your kind over there in camelland?

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

And if you accept the fact that the Qu'ran needs the Hadith to be understood correctly..
Then BY DEFINITION, it would be incomplete. And thus it cannot be perfect!
Case closed.

If you want to understand it that way, thats fine to me.

Following the same argument:

You guys accepted that fact that the Bible orders Christians to follow Secular Laws, even though these secular laws contradicts the Bible in MANY ways.

Thus, for the Bible to order you to follow something really different from the bible, therefore, the Bible laws are not perfect. And BY DEFINITION bible laws are obsolete.
Case Closed.

[Brother John]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

If you want to understand it that way, thats fine to me.

Following the same argument:

You guys accepted that fact that the Bible orders Christians to follow Secular Laws, even though these secular laws contradicts the Bible in MANY ways.

Thus, for the Bible to order you to follow something really different from the bible, therefore, the Bible laws are not perfect. And BY DEFINITION bible laws are obsolete.
Case Closed.

No, the Bible just doesn't propagate anarchy in that sense. Those who propose laws other than those stated in the Bible shall eventually be smitten. It is not a case of complementation, it is a case of regulation, in other words a different case altogether than that of the Qu'ran and the hadith.

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

No, the Bible just doesn't propagate anarchy in that sense. Those who propose laws other than those stated in the Bible shall eventually be smitten. It is not a case of complementation, it is a case of regulation, in other words a different case altogether than that of the Qu'ran and the hadith.

What kind of regulations??
I only see Christians going against Abortion and Homosexuality laws in the US. I have never seen Christians trying to enforce Slavery, Stoning, Killing people who preach about different religions, killing animals that worship demons and other things in the bible.

How I see it, is that you guys know that some of the Bible laws are obsolete, like the above, and you are using the "secular laws" excuse to not follow them.

[Rev. Dr. Davidson]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

How I see it, is that you guys know that some of the Bible laws are obsolete, like the above, and you are using the "secular laws" excuse to not follow them.

In my case, and I can't speak for feel-good Christians, I support enforcement of all God's laws. The only problem is that True Christians™ are in the minority.

Think of it this way. How many different sects of Islam are there? There are more than a few. What if those who actually followed the Koran were in the minority all of a sudden? Would 10% or less of your population rise up against the rest, or would you work your hardest to try and change those laws against you following your faith?

As for the obsolete argument, do you believe there are laws in the Koran that are obsolete? If you do, does that not make you unworthy of calling yourself true to your faith?

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

If you want to understand it that way, thats fine to me.

Following the same argument:

You guys accepted that fact that the Bible orders Christians to follow Secular Laws, even though these secular laws contradicts the Bible in MANY ways.

Thus, for the Bible to order you to follow something really different from the bible, therefore, the Bible laws are not perfect. And BY DEFINITION bible laws are obsolete.
Case Closed.

You are not at all following the same argument. You're being wilfully vexatious on this subject.

Of course, if Biblical laws are obsolete, and most of those are what Islam is founded upon, where does that leave Islamic law?

What kind of regulations??
I only see Christians going against Abortion and Homosexuality laws in the US. I have never seen Christians trying to enforce Slavery, Stoning, Killing people who preach about different religions, killing animals that worship demons and other things in the bible.

How I see it, is that you guys know that some of the Bible laws are obsolete, like the above, and you are using the "secular laws" excuse to not follow them.

So then you also must agree that Sharia law is obsolete, as millions of Muslims live in countries with other laws, and follow those laws.

Correct?

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Dr. Davidson:
In one of your posts, you accused Islam of have no freedom of Religion. I am sure you used that as a bad thing. When I quoted to you the bible that shows no freedom of religion AND killing whoever preaches about different religion. You said that this is against secular laws, so we don't do it.

If I was one of the 10%, then I would die following Islam.

Is any laws in the Koran Obsolete?? No.


OnYourKnees:
Islam gave us laws, and told us to follow them. Whether its year 10 or 9000.
Bible gave you laws, and told you to follow secular laws!!

If a Muslim doesn't follow Islamic Law, he will be punished.

Let me quote something from Islamic website about following Islam and Sharia:

"
“And whosoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed, such are the Kaafiroon (i.e. disbelievers — of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allaah’s Law)”[al-Maa'idah 5:44]
If the ruler judges according to the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), it becomes obligatory to obey him and haraam to go against him or to rebel against him. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination”[al-Nisaa’ 4:59]
If the ruler judges by something other than that which Allaah has revealed, or he enjoins disobedience to Allaah, then we should not hear and obey. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
“The Muslim is obliged to hear and obey whether he likes it or dislikes it, unless he is commanded to disobey (Allaah), in which case he should not hear and obey.”(Narrated by Muslim, 1839)

"


You also said "So then you also must agree that Sharia law is obsolete, as millions of Muslims live in countries with other laws, and follow those laws."
I don't know how many times I need to tell you that you judge a religion by its sources, not the actions of its followers.
As you may have noticed, I am not debating about what the Bible teaches, not what the followers do.

Again:
Islam gave us laws, and told us to follow them. Whether its year 10 or 9000.
Bible gave you laws, and told you to follow secular laws!!

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Dr. Davidson:
In one of your posts, you accused Islam of have no freedom of Religion. I am sure you used that as a bad thing. When I quoted to you the bible that shows no freedom of religion AND killing whoever preaches about different religion. You said that this is against secular laws, so we don't do it.

If I was one of the 10%, then I would die following Islam.

Is any laws in the Koran Obsolete?? No.


OnYourKnees:
Islam gave us laws, and told us to follow them. Whether its year 10 or 9000.
Bible gave you laws, and told you to follow secular laws!!

If a Muslim doesn't follow Islamic Law, he will be punished.

Let me quote something from Islamic website about following Islam and Sharia:

"
“And whosoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed, such are the Kaafiroon (i.e. disbelievers — of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allaah’s Law)”[al-Maa'idah 5:44]
If the ruler judges according to the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), it becomes obligatory to obey him and haraam to go against him or to rebel against him. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination”[al-Nisaa’ 4:59]
If the ruler judges by something other than that which Allaah has revealed, or he enjoins disobedience to Allaah, then we should not hear and obey. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
“The Muslim is obliged to hear and obey whether he likes it or dislikes it, unless he is commanded to disobey (Allaah), in which case he should not hear and obey.”(Narrated by Muslim, 1839)

"


You also said "So then you also must agree that Sharia law is obsolete, as millions of Muslims live in countries with other laws, and follow those laws."
I don't know how many times I need to tell you that you judge a religion by its sources, not the actions of its followers.
As you may have noticed, I am not debating about what the Bible teaches, not what the followers do.

Again:
Islam gave us laws, and told us to follow them. Whether its year 10 or 9000.
Bible gave you laws, and told you to follow secular laws!!

Islam didn't exist in the year 10.

Apparently, Allah didn't, either.

Now, you're saying that your religion indicates that you are not subject to anything but Islamic law. That means that all Muslims will attempt to enforce Shari'a Law in any nation they enter, and believe they have a right to do so.

It also means that Muslims must desire conquest of the world, in order that their laws may be enforced everywhere.

Does this not make Islam a religion of invasion and conquest? Does this not make Muslims a threat to the peace of any civilized nation?