[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Theft of Theology!

If you study the history of the church, you will see that the Trinity as we currently know it did not come about until the Synod of Hippo. It is a doctrine of the popes, and 1 John 5:7 only makes reference to it in its vaguest form. I would like to see more protestants admitting that there doctrines have evolved as a result of the sacred oral tradition in the early years of the church rather than pretending that scripture is clear cut on every single moral and theological issue.

Why would God wait so long to reveal such an important doctrine? Don't you think that if He has something to say, especially something that important, He can just say it, especially since He is omnipotent? What a confused little "god" you Catholics worship.

It is not, and that is why we need our popes.

The Mormons make exactly the same argument as to why they need the "prophets" of their "church." Since you and they cannot both be right, your argument proves too much.

[The Cantabrian]

Re: Theft of Theology!

Why would God wait so long to reveal such an important doctrine? Don't you think that if He has something to say, especially something that important, He can just say it, especially since He is omnipotent? What a confused little "god" you Catholics worship.

The Mormons make exactly the same argument as to why they need the "prophets" of their "church." Since you and they cannot both be right, your argument proves too much.

God teaches through men, not through a book. And we have our pope, and the mormons have their prophets, but you have your pastors. Same difference.

No, it's the Eastern Orthodox Church, duh.

Taken from WIKIPEDIA

Orthodox bishops trace their lineage back to the Apostles through the process of Apostolic Succession. The Orthodox Church claims to trace its development back through the Byzantine or Roman empire, to the earliest church established by St. Paul and the Apostles. It practices what it understands to be the original ancient traditions, believing in growth without change.

If it's one Wikipedia, it must be true.

The orthodox church WAS PART of the catholic church until the Great Schism. I suggest you familiarise yourself with church history.

Whatever. The arrogance of your so-called church is offensive. Your church is the one true church, which by definition means that all other churches are false, and it follows from that the followers of every other faith are damned. We agree with you, except it is you and not us who are going to hell.

i guess you subscribe to the idea that the longer something has been around, the more legitimacy it necessarily has. I'm sure the followers of Zeus thought so too. Just because you folks were quick on the jump to seize power and conspired by any means necessary to keep it doesn't make you holy or right.

And that's what it's all about with you people - power and arrogance. That you would put priests and bishops and cardinals and popes between the Lord and his flock is an abomination. Where do you get off putting flawed sinful men between God and His children?

Where do you get off praying to or through dead people?

How can you talk about an infallible pope when your religion committed heinous crimes throughout history. Your clergy could be married until the 12th century, when the church decided it wanted to be the inheritor of a priest's estate, and not his family. Your church sold remission of sins for cash. CASH. You preached purgatory despite there not being any Biblical foundation, and then try to quietly abandon it for the fraud that it is. You refuse to provide birth control to starving people who are having more starving babies. Your helpers are on record as advising ignorant, starving people in Africa that condoms cause AIDS. This alone is an abomination, and I am not kidding when I say the pope should be arrested and tried at the Hague for crimes against humanity.

But this grows tiresome as we've covered this ground over and over. You've got nothing new and you're not going to convince a single soul here that your church is anything more than a blasphemous fraud. It is my personal wish that you leave this place. I don't know why you persist knowing that you'll get no traction here.

Same old myths, repeated over and over again. The catholic church has saved millions of lives the world over, with its saints risking life and limb to help the poor and the oppressed. Why is this never reported? You know, some of you people sound like atheists at times and I sometimes wonder if there is not another agenda at work. You are certainly the most bizarre and unloving sect of Christianity that I have ever come across (and I have travelled widely and come across A LOT).

The predominant secular view. Not the Christian view. This reliable source clearly states that "Baptist history extends all the way back to the apostolic Church." Case closed.

Hmmmmm but we'll say nothing about the fact that this Baptist viewpoint contradicts mainstream church historians will we?

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Theft of Theology!

The orthodox church WAS PART of the catholic church until the Great Schism. I suggest you familiarise yourself with church history.

No, the Catholic Church was a part of the Orthodox Church, duh. Why did you leave the true faith???

Hmmmmm but we'll say nothing about the fact that this Baptist viewpoint contradicts mainstream church historians will we?

Why would we want to be in the mainstream?

James 4:4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Theft of Theology!

God teaches through men, not through a book.

Then why were the Bereans called noble for using a book to test the teachings of men?

Acts 17:10-12: And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

More fundamentally, what's the point of the Bible at all, if God teaches through men, not through a book?

And we have our pope, and the mormons have their prophets, but you have your pastors. Same difference.

It's not the same thing at all. We don't come up with "traditions" and "revelations" that theoretically explain Scripture and effectively rewrite it on the fly. We simply guide people in reading the Bible, as they are supposed to do:

Eph. 3:3-4: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Let me reiterate a point that I've made before and that you haven't answered: Unlike you, we have enough faith in God that we trust Him to have made His point clearly, with no need for "clarification" through either a boy-touching pontiff or a magic-undie-wearing "prophet."

Finally, if it's the "same difference," how do you know that you're right and that the lemonade-drinkers in Utah are wrong?

[BelieverInGod]

Re: Please alter this lying description of me.

What???!!! You are stopping me from opening new threads??!!! WHY ON EARTH would you do that???? Unless of course you are scared of losing the argument?

Because that's how you papists play the game.

1. Open thread
2. Get ass Biblically handed to you on a platter
3. Ignore all scripture given to you
4. Go to step 1

Every papist that comes onto this board does the same thing, and every thread is the same thing over and over and over. Since we're arguing the same arguments, why can't they be kept in the same thread? Do you not like when we point out how wrong you are according to scripture or even the Vaticans website? Does that upset you, so you think if you start fresh we'll just forget all that stuff?

[A Follower]

Re: Theft of Theology!

Acts 17:10-11
And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Do you see that? Reading and believing the Bible is more noble than listening to a self-styled pope who has no biblical base at all. Nor are his "infallible" edicts worth anything:

Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

So with that out of the way let's see what the Bible actually says about the trinity:

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Matthew 3:16
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Isaiah 48:11
For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

There are of course many more passages in the Bible that proof the Trinity, if you aren't convinced yet I am more than willing to look them up.

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

You are quite right when you say that cathlicks made up most of the rituals and dogma's they profess to believe in, this just isn't one of them. How you manage to distort that into proof that we should believe in a pope as well is quite incomprehensible to me. It certainly isn't theft, Jesus implores us to spread the Word far and wide, you're just confused because the cathlick church through happenstance believes in something Christians believe in as well (I use the word happenstance because I'm reasonably sure no cathlick has ever opened a Bible, their beliefs aren't based on the Bible, so any similarities have to be coincidental).

It is important to note that the Scripture quoted here proves
- that the Bible is important for Christians;
- that nothing can be added or removed from it;

Together with the fact that the catholics have a habit of making up rules that are not in the Bible (praying to statues of Jesus, thumbing rosary beads, praying to people who are not God, etc) should be proof for you that being cathlick has nothing to do with being Christian. If you want to see Heaven for yourself one day you might want to consider joining us. And as if Heaven isn't enough for you, there are even more reasons to become a True Christian(tm): you won't have to do any of that perverted stuff with your priests anymore!

Reading the Bible, putting your faith in Jesus and a proper baptizing will do the trick.

[landoverlover]

Re: Theft of Theology!

You know, some of you people sound like atheists at times and I sometimes wonder if there is not another agenda at work.

Wow. Of all the outrageous things you've said, that's the worst. It's bad enough that you condemn all non-catholics to hell, now you're accusing the members of Landover of being ATHEISTS? Incredible.

[Fire&Brimstone]

Re: Theft of Theology!

It upsets me that people can not try, even if they dont understand the good book

[The Cantabrian]

Re: Theft of Theology!

More fundamentally, what's the point of the Bible at all, if God teaches through men, not through a book?

The Bible is vitally important, but it has been put together using LANGUAGE. LANGUAGE is not like a mathematical equation; by definition it requires interpretation. So what I am saying is the Bible is only ONE source of teaching us about the nature of God.

Let me reiterate a point that I've made before and that you haven't answered: Unlike you, we have enough faith in God that we trust Him to have made His point clearly, with no need for "clarification" through either a boy-touching pontiff or a magic-undie-wearing "prophet."

Same point as above. The Bible is not at all clear about many subjects. What, for example, does it saying about genetic cloning?

Finally, if it's the "same difference," how do you know that you're right and that the lemonade-drinkers in Utah are wrong?

I don't know. But I do have faith.

Because that's how you papists play the game.

1. Open thread
2. Get ass Biblically handed to you on a platter
3. Ignore all scripture given to you
4. Go to step 1

Every papist that comes onto this board does the same thing, and every thread is the same thing over and over and over. Since we're arguing the same arguments, why can't they be kept in the same thread? Do you not like when we point out how wrong you are according to scripture or even the Vaticans website? Does that upset you, so you think if you start fresh we'll just forget all that stuff?

I don't think that is the true reason at all. It's just you do not want people highlighting certain practices and doctrines of your church which are contrary to scripture.

Acts 17:10-11
And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Do you see that? Reading and believing the Bible is more noble than listening to a self-styled pope who has no biblical base at all.

What??? The passage doesn't say that at all, it just says the people were more noble. This had nothing to do with reading the Bible. And besides we catholics also 'search the scriptures daily'.

So with that out of the way let's see what the Bible actually says about the trinity:

And you draw trinitarian doctrine from that? Sure, these scriptures SUPPORT the trinity, but they do not spell it out. Why didn't God just use the word 'Trinity'? The answer is because these were writings of men which required interpretation.

It is important to note that the Scripture quoted here proves
- that the Bible is important for Christians;
- that nothing can be added or removed from it;

I have no issue with your first proposition at all. But adding / removing??? You are trying to use the Bible in a circular fashion. The canon was not even settled when those verses were written! Besides, we catholics regard the canon as closed so we are not adding or taking anything away from it.

Reading the Bible, putting your faith in Jesus and a proper baptizing will do the trick.

Actually Matthew 25 says you have to do quite a few other things. Or else you are for the burning.

Wow. Of all the outrageous things you've said, that's the worst. It's bad enough that you condemn all non-catholics to hell, now you're accusing the members of Landover of being ATHEISTS? Incredible.

I didn't make that accusation, I just said that I have heard atheists saying similar things in my time.

It upsets me that people can not try, even if they dont understand the good book

I read the Bible daily, and I would be willing to bet I know it a lot better than you do. I am considering studying for the priesthood after I complete my phd.

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Theft of Theology!

The Bible is vitally important, but it has been put together using LANGUAGE. LANGUAGE is not like a mathematical equation; by definition it requires interpretation. So what I am saying is the Bible is only ONE source of teaching us about the nature of God.

The Bible is vitally important, but God doesn't teach through a book. Which is it? Also, regarding language, how much interpretation does the owner's manual of an appliance require? Interpretation and reading comprehension are two different things.

Same point as above. The Bible is not at all clear about many subjects. What, for example, does it saying about genetic cloning?

What does it say about genetics at all? Hint: Genesis ch. 30.

I don't know. But I do have faith.

Guess what: So do the Mormons. Anyway, if you followed the Bible instead of Romanism, you'd know:

1 John 5:13: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I don't think that is the true reason at all. It's just you do not want people highlighting certain practices and doctrines of your church which are contrary to scripture.

Such as?

What??? The passage doesn't say that at all, it just says the people were more noble. This had nothing to do with reading the Bible. And besides we catholics also 'search the scriptures daily'.

The passage says the way in which they were more noble: They tested the teachings of men against God's Word.

I have no issue with your first proposition at all. But adding / removing??? You are trying to use the Bible in a circular fashion. The canon was not even settled when those verses were written! Besides, we catholics regard the canon as closed so we are not adding or taking anything away from it.

You're adding your "sacred oral tradition" to it.

Actually Matthew 25 says you have to do quite a few other things. Or else you are for the burning.

Do you honestly believe that we've never read that chapter?

I read the Bible daily, and I would be willing to bet I know it a lot better than you do.

Don't tell; show.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Theft of Theology!

What??? The passage doesn't say that at all, it just says the people were more noble. This had nothing to do with reading the Bible. And besides we catholics also 'search the scriptures daily'.

If you Catholics are so keen on searching the scriptures daily, then why didn't you ever translate the Bible into languages other than Latin so ordinary people could search the scriptures for themselves?

[The Cantabrian]

Re: Theft of Theology!

The Bible is vitally important, but God doesn't teach through a book. Which is it? Also, regarding language, how much interpretation does the owner's manual of an appliance require? Interpretation and reading comprehension are two different things.

What does it say about genetics at all? Hint: Genesis ch. 30.

My point exactly. How far should we interpret such passages? Does the selective breeding discussed in Genesis mean that we should be cloning animals today? And, if so, should we allow it for human beings and so-called "stem-cell research"?
The Bible does not spell out the answers, so we need holy and wise men to provide leadership.

With respect, I think your other questions will just lead to us going around in circles, so I don't think I need to answer them. It all comes down to the above point in any case: scripture alone is insufficient. Texts written in ancient languages thousands of years ago cannot be compared with a modern day instruction manual. That is precisely why the Lord Jesus established his church, and appointed St Peter as the first pope.

[/QUOTE]

If you Catholics are so keen on searching the scriptures daily, then why didn't you ever translate the Bible into languages other than Latin so ordinary people could search the scriptures for themselves?

There were many advantages to keeping the Bible preserved in Latin. It was the only language that was widely understood in medieval Europe, and as such ensured consistency and certainty. Personally I love Latin masses. They provide a sense of mystery and reverence that exceeds the standard Sunday mass!

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Theft of Theology!

There were many advantages to keeping the Bible preserved in Latin. It was the only language that was widely understood in medieval Europe, and as such ensured consistency and certainty. Personally I love Latin masses. They provide a sense of mystery and reverence that exceeds the standard Sunday mass!

Yes, it's lovely when you have no understanding of the World of God and awful convenient that your priest is only person who can tell you what it means? Just be a good little Catholic sheep and ignore the screaming from the rectory.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Theft of Theology!

With respect, I think your other questions will just lead to us going around in circles, so I don't think I need to answer them. It all comes down to the above point in any case: scripture alone is insufficient. Texts written in ancient languages thousands of years ago cannot be compared with a modern day instruction manual. That is precisely why the Lord Jesus established his church, and appointed St Peter as the first pope.

There were many advantages to keeping the Bible preserved in Latin. It was the only language that was widely understood in medieval Europe, and as such ensured consistency and certainty. Personally I love Latin masses. They provide a sense of mystery and reverence that exceeds the standard Sunday mass!

Which is it, Brian? And no, Latin was not widely understood except among the elite.

[WWJDnow]

Re: Theft of Theology!

Your church sold remission of sins for cash. CASH.

The Catholics like to forget this part of their popish history. It is true that God looks with more favor upon Gold and Platinum Tithers(TM) than He does upon the selfish poor, but you can't buy the right to sin.