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  • Yhalothar
    Confirmed Enemy of God
    BANNED from Landover -- Aeternal Damnation Assured
    • Jan 2008
    • 22

    #16
    Re: I'm a proud atheist

    You misunderstand, i'm saying that we all get our morality from the same places. Atheist morality is not inferior or superior to theist morality, they are usually very similar to everything apart from homosexuals and things like that. As i've said, a look at the prison system shows this.

    Comment

    • Celeste
      Confirmed Enemy of God
      BANNED from Landover -- Aeternal Damnation Assured
      • Jan 2008
      • 10

      #17
      Re: I'm a proud atheist

      hey, i have my reasons for thinking that good and evil is a human invention, but human's are a scientific invention.
      have you read the bible?
      it's highly inaccurate!
      and written down years after events allegedly happened and then translated wrongly.
      jesus christ, I'm shocked that intelligent people like yourselves follow the world's biggest scam.
      xoxo

      Comment

      • One-eyed Jack
        True Christian™
        True Christian™
        • Nov 2007
        • 1092

        #18
        Re: I'm a proud atheist

        "You misunderstand, i'm saying that we all get our morality from the same places. Atheist morality is not inferior or superior to theist morality..."

        I must disagree. There is a fundamental difference.

        I once debated a fellow named Vern, back when Landover was on another system of forums entirely. We were, I think, each other's nemesis. At one point I challenged him about Moses' slaughter of the Midianites, in which the Israelites killed everyone, even infants, except for the virgin girls (which they kept for themselves).

        How, I asked, can what would in any context at all be considered a war crime be approved by a just and good moral system? How can a good and just God command His prophet and His people to do such a thing?

        Vern's answer was: "God commanded it, and anything God does is all right with me."

        That is the difference between a received and a constructed morality.

        In a received moral system, the individual must adhere to the rules of the Authority...whether it is the Bible, the Communist Party, or Walmart. If he has internal reservations, he is ethically bound to overcome them, because his moral structure is based on acceptance of an external authority.

        And as I mentioned above, in a constructed moral system the individual is obliged to work out his beliefs about good and evil for himself. (Interestingly, if he finds he has been mistaken, he is free to update his beliefs at any time. In a system of received morality changes are mandated by outside -- by an encyclical from the Pope, for instance, or by a new interpretation of the fundamental text...which usually results in a schism and yet another sect.)

        -----

        I sound like a devil's advocate, don't I. Well, from a Christian perspective the received morality of the Bible is perfect, and so there is no disadvantage to using it as a basis for a received morality. In fact, a perfect and divine document must be superior to a constructed morality.

        Which is where Vern was coming from: One accepts war crimes and genocide because God's morality cannot be wrong.

        O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

        Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:20, 21

        ~~ OEJ

        Comment

        • Yhalothar
          Confirmed Enemy of God
          BANNED from Landover -- Aeternal Damnation Assured
          • Jan 2008
          • 22

          #19
          Re: I'm a proud atheist

          Well yea, "Good men do good deeds, evil men do evil deeds, but it takes religion for a good man to do evil deeds." Religion warps morality and has people justifying atrocities(like the slaugher of 42 children). But there is no moral benefit to following a religion

          Comment

          • Celeste
            Confirmed Enemy of God
            BANNED from Landover -- Aeternal Damnation Assured
            • Jan 2008
            • 10

            #20
            Re: I'm a proud atheist

            Originally posted by One-eyed Jack View Post
            "You misunderstand, i'm saying that we all get our morality from the same places. Atheist morality is not inferior or superior to theist morality..."

            I must disagree. There is a fundamental difference.

            I once debated a fellow named Vern, back when Landover was on another system of forums entirely. We were, I think, each other's nemesis. At one point I challenged him about Moses' slaughter of the Midianites, in which the Israelites killed everyone, even infants, except for the virgin girls (which they kept for themselves).

            How, I asked, can what would in any context at all be considered a war crime be approved by a just and good moral system? How can a good and just God command His prophet and His people to do such a thing?

            Vern's answer was: "God commanded it, and anything God does is all right with me."

            That is the difference between a received and a constructed morality.

            In a received moral system, the individual must adhere to the rules of the Authority...whether it is the Bible, the Communist Party, or Walmart. If he has internal reservations, he is ethically bound to overcome them, because his moral structure is based on acceptance of an external authority.

            And as I mentioned above, in a constructed moral system the individual is obliged to work out his beliefs about good and evil for himself. (Interestingly, if he finds he has been mistaken, he is free to update his beliefs at any time. In a system of received morality changes are mandated by outside -- by an encyclical from the Pope, for instance, or by a new interpretation of the fundamental text...which usually results in a schism and yet another sect.)

            -----

            I sound like a devil's advocate, don't I. Well, from a Christian perspective the received morality of the Bible is perfect, and so there is no disadvantage to using it as a basis for a received morality. In fact, a perfect and divine document must be superior to a constructed morality.

            Which is where Vern was coming from: One accepts war crimes and genocide because God's morality cannot be wrong.

            O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

            Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:20, 21

            ~~ OEJ


            yess, a load of bullshit.
            but the thing is
            I can't be wrong
            because God made me an atheist
            and who are you, cowering ill-minded mortal, to question the judgement of an non existent fat bloke?

            Comment

            • One-eyed Jack
              True Christian™
              True Christian™
              • Nov 2007
              • 1092

              #21
              Re: I'm a proud atheist

              “With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.” -- Steven Weinberg, physicist and Nobel prizewinner.

              Time, I think, for Christ!

              What about the Beatitudes?

              Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Matthew 5:7

              Indeed. The granting of mercy is one of the great cornerstones of human morality.

              Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Matthew 5:9

              We could use a few more peacemakers in this century of blood.

              Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

              But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38, 39

              This rejects the "lefthand path" law of putting the individual first, of demanding justice in like injury: raping the rapist and torturing the torturer, as it were.

              Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

              But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Matthew 5:43, 44

              A pro-active teaching: if some men return good for evil society may be improved; if they always returns evil for evil then the plight of mankind does not improve. Wise indeed.

              O my brethren, the Bible is a great and wondrous work. Open it and read therein! For mockers may laugh at it and serpents may abhor it, but truly it is a teaching to reckon with. The atheist in his lair, the agnostic in his catamitic dreams, the pagan laboring away at his orgy...seldom do the unbelievers honor what treasure lieth between the covers of the Book.

              And I think old and flatulent Jack is just about done with this thread. Mine well hath run dry. I am much encouraged in my opinion of the young people who responded thoughtfully, however. May they be blessed!

              ~~ OEJ
              Last edited by One-eyed Jack; 01-06-2008, 09:37 PM. Reason: Formatting and stupid prose errors.

              Comment

              • Yhalothar
                Confirmed Enemy of God
                BANNED from Landover -- Aeternal Damnation Assured
                • Jan 2008
                • 22

                #22
                Re: I'm a proud atheist

                Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
                15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
                15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
                15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
                15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

                Pretty easy to pick out the parts of the bible you like and ignore the parts you don't huh?

                Comment

                • Born Again Bob
                  True Christian™
                  True Christian™
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 2318

                  #23
                  Re: I'm a proud atheist

                  Originally posted by Yhalothar View Post
                  15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
                  15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

                  Pretty easy to pick out the parts of the bible you like and ignore the parts you don't huh?
                  Dear Friend,

                  Not sure what your point is here. We embrace this part of the Bible, with all others. The Lord told his people to do something, and they did. Good for them.

                  Yours in Him,
                  bab

                  Comment

                  • Khorne
                    Confirmed Enemy of God
                    BANNED from Landover -- Aeternal Damnation Assured
                    • Jan 2008
                    • 11

                    #24
                    Re: I'm a proud atheist

                    Originally posted by One-eyed Jack View Post
                    A proud atheist, eh?

                    So this is a challenge: explain the atheist understanding of good and evil, and how one arrives at that understanding.

                    ~~ OEJ
                    How did god know what good and evil whas ? he whas the first and only
                    So where did he based good and evil on

                    Comment

                    • Pastor Ezekiel
                      Putting the "stud" back in Bible Study
                       
                      • Sep 2006
                      • 78556

                      #25
                      Re: I'm a proud atheist

                      Originally posted by Khorne View Post
                      How did god know what good and evil whas ? he whas the first and only
                      So where did he based good and evil on
                      Like everything else, He created it.

                      I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.--Isaiah 45:7

                      And in the future, you will show proper respect by capitalizing God. Otherwise, some of that "darkness" might come your way.

                      Capeesch?
                      Who Will Jesus Damn?

                      Here is a partial list from just a few scripture verses:

                      Hypocrites (Matthew 24:51), The Unforgiving (Mark 11:26), Homosexuals (Romans 1:26, 27), Fornicators (Romans 1:29), The Wicked (Romans 1:29), The Covetous (Romans 1:29), The Malicious (Romans 1:29), The Envious (Romans 1:29), Murderers (Romans 1:29), The Deceitful (Romans 1:29), Backbiters (Romans 1:30), Haters of God (Romans 1:30), The Despiteful (Romans 1:30), The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30), Inventors of evil (Romans 1:30), Disobedient to parents (Romans 1:30), Covenant breakers (Romans 1:31), The Unmerciful (Romans 1:31), The Implacable (Romans 1:31), The Unrighteous (1Corinthians 6:9), Idolaters (1Corinthians 6:9), Adulterers (1Corinthians 6:9), The Effeminate (1Corinthians 6:9), Thieves (1Corinthians 6:10), Drunkards (1Corinthians 6:10), Reviler (1Corinthians 6:10), Extortioners (1Corinthians 6:10), The Fearful (Revelation 21:8), The Unbelieving (Revelation 21:8), The Abominable (Revelation 21:8), Whoremongers (Revelation 21:8), Sorcerers (Revelation 21:8), All Liars (Revelation 21:8)

                      Need Pastoral Advice? Contact me privately at PastorEzekiel@landoverbaptist.net TODAY!!

                      Comment

                      • One-eyed Jack
                        True Christian™
                        True Christian™
                        • Nov 2007
                        • 1092

                        #26
                        Re: I'm a proud atheist

                        Khorne: "How did god know what good and evil whas ? he whas the first and only"

                        He based the moral system He divulges in the Bible on His own innate qualities, I imagine.

                        For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

                        And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:16,17

                        God is before all things, but by him all things consist: ie, the moral system which governs the universe consists by God. If there is nothing before or higher than God, then His nature must be what defines good and evil.

                        Note that the moral system put forth in the Bible binds mankind, but it does not bind God. God is the lawgiver. Just as the parent makes rules for little children -- don't drive the car -- but is not bound by those same rules, so God makes laws for man but is not Himself bound by those rules.

                        ~~ OEJ

                        Comment

                        • Khorne
                          Confirmed Enemy of God
                          BANNED from Landover -- Aeternal Damnation Assured
                          • Jan 2008
                          • 11

                          #27
                          Re: I'm a proud atheist

                          Originally posted by Pastor Ezekiel View Post
                          Like everything else, He created it.

                          I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.--Isaiah 45:7

                          And in the future, you will show proper respect by capitalizing God. Otherwise, some of that "darkness" might come your way.

                          Capeesch?
                          excuse me

                          Comment

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