[Yhalothar]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

You misunderstand, i'm saying that we all get our morality from the same places. Atheist morality is not inferior or superior to theist morality, they are usually very similar to everything apart from homosexuals and things like that. As i've said, a look at the prison system shows this.

[Celeste]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

hey, i have my reasons for thinking that good and evil is a human invention, but human's are a scientific invention.
have you read the bible?
it's highly inaccurate!
and written down years after events allegedly happened and then translated wrongly.
jesus christ, I'm shocked that intelligent people like yourselves follow the world's biggest scam.
xoxo

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

"You misunderstand, i'm saying that we all get our morality from the same places. Atheist morality is not inferior or superior to theist morality..."

I must disagree. There is a fundamental difference.

I once debated a fellow named Vern, back when Landover was on another system of forums entirely. We were, I think, each other's nemesis. At one point I challenged him about Moses' slaughter of the Midianites, in which the Israelites killed everyone, even infants, except for the virgin girls (which they kept for themselves).

How, I asked, can what would in any context at all be considered a war crime be approved by a just and good moral system? How can a good and just God command His prophet and His people to do such a thing?

Vern's answer was: "God commanded it, and anything God does is all right with me."

That is the difference between a received and a constructed morality.

In a received moral system, the individual must adhere to the rules of the Authority...whether it is the Bible, the Communist Party, or Walmart. If he has internal reservations, he is ethically bound to overcome them, because his moral structure is based on acceptance of an external authority.

And as I mentioned above, in a constructed moral system the individual is obliged to work out his beliefs about good and evil for himself. (Interestingly, if he finds he has been mistaken, he is free to update his beliefs at any time. In a system of received morality changes are mandated by outside -- by an encyclical from the Pope, for instance, or by a new interpretation of the fundamental text...which usually results in a schism and yet another sect.)

-----

I sound like a devil's advocate, don't I. Well, from a Christian perspective the received morality of the Bible is perfect, and so there is no disadvantage to using it as a basis for a received morality. In fact, a perfect and divine document must be superior to a constructed morality.

Which is where Vern was coming from: One accepts war crimes and genocide because God's morality cannot be wrong.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:20, 21

~~ OEJ

[Yhalothar]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

Well yea, "Good men do good deeds, evil men do evil deeds, but it takes religion for a good man to do evil deeds." Religion warps morality and has people justifying atrocities(like the slaugher of 42 children). But there is no moral benefit to following a religion

[Celeste]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

"You misunderstand, i'm saying that we all get our morality from the same places. Atheist morality is not inferior or superior to theist morality..."

I must disagree. There is a fundamental difference.

I once debated a fellow named Vern, back when Landover was on another system of forums entirely. We were, I think, each other's nemesis. At one point I challenged him about Moses' slaughter of the Midianites, in which the Israelites killed everyone, even infants, except for the virgin girls (which they kept for themselves).

How, I asked, can what would in any context at all be considered a war crime be approved by a just and good moral system? How can a good and just God command His prophet and His people to do such a thing?

Vern's answer was: "God commanded it, and anything God does is all right with me."

That is the difference between a received and a constructed morality.

In a received moral system, the individual must adhere to the rules of the Authority...whether it is the Bible, the Communist Party, or Walmart. If he has internal reservations, he is ethically bound to overcome them, because his moral structure is based on acceptance of an external authority.

And as I mentioned above, in a constructed moral system the individual is obliged to work out his beliefs about good and evil for himself. (Interestingly, if he finds he has been mistaken, he is free to update his beliefs at any time. In a system of received morality changes are mandated by outside -- by an encyclical from the Pope, for instance, or by a new interpretation of the fundamental text...which usually results in a schism and yet another sect.)

-----

I sound like a devil's advocate, don't I. Well, from a Christian perspective the received morality of the Bible is perfect, and so there is no disadvantage to using it as a basis for a received morality. In fact, a perfect and divine document must be superior to a constructed morality.

Which is where Vern was coming from: One accepts war crimes and genocide because God's morality cannot be wrong.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:20, 21

~~ OEJ

yess, a load of bullshit.
but the thing is
I can't be wrong
because God made me an atheist
and who are you, cowering ill-minded mortal, to question the judgement of an non existent fat bloke?

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

“With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.” -- Steven Weinberg, physicist and Nobel prizewinner.

Time, I think, for Christ!

What about the Beatitudes?

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Matthew 5:7

Indeed. The granting of mercy is one of the great cornerstones of human morality.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Matthew 5:9

We could use a few more peacemakers in this century of blood.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38, 39

This rejects the "lefthand path" law of putting the individual first, of demanding justice in like injury: raping the rapist and torturing the torturer, as it were.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Matthew 5:43, 44

A pro-active teaching: if some men return good for evil society may be improved; if they always returns evil for evil then the plight of mankind does not improve. Wise indeed.

O my brethren, the Bible is a great and wondrous work. Open it and read therein! For mockers may laugh at it and serpents may abhor it, but truly it is a teaching to reckon with. The atheist in his lair, the agnostic in his catamitic dreams, the pagan laboring away at his orgy...seldom do the unbelievers honor what treasure lieth between the covers of the Book.

And I think old and flatulent Jack is just about done with this thread. Mine well hath run dry. I am much encouraged in my opinion of the young people who responded thoughtfully, however. May they be blessed!

~~ OEJ

[Yhalothar]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Pretty easy to pick out the parts of the bible you like and ignore the parts you don't huh?

[Born Again Bob]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Pretty easy to pick out the parts of the bible you like and ignore the parts you don't huh?

Dear Friend,

Not sure what your point is here. We embrace this part of the Bible, with all others. The Lord told his people to do something, and they did. Good for them.

Yours in Him,
bab

[Khorne]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

A proud atheist, eh?

So this is a challenge: explain the atheist understanding of good and evil, and how one arrives at that understanding.

~~ OEJ

How did god know what good and evil whas ? he whas the first and only
So where did he based good and evil on

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

How did god know what good and evil whas ? he whas the first and only
So where did he based good and evil on

Like everything else, He created it.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.--Isaiah 45:7

And in the future, you will show proper respect by capitalizing God. Otherwise, some of that "darkness" might come your way.

Capeesch?

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

Khorne: "How did god know what good and evil whas ? he whas the first and only"

He based the moral system He divulges in the Bible on His own innate qualities, I imagine.

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:16,17

God is before all things, but by him all things consist: ie, the moral system which governs the universe consists by God. If there is nothing before or higher than God, then His nature must be what defines good and evil.

Note that the moral system put forth in the Bible binds mankind, but it does not bind God. God is the lawgiver. Just as the parent makes rules for little children -- don't drive the car -- but is not bound by those same rules, so God makes laws for man but is not Himself bound by those rules.

~~ OEJ

[Khorne]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

Like everything else, He created it.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.--Isaiah 45:7

And in the future, you will show proper respect by capitalizing God. Otherwise, some of that "darkness" might come your way.

Capeesch?

excuse me