[Rev. Dr. Davidson]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

So reverand, does that mean you dont believe that he desires a close, intimate personal relationship with each and every one of us?

But for that relationship to come into being, we must choose Him. If he already knew who was going to do this, it would make God into a computer counting variables for a preconceived number.

The relationship between God and man is like you said, close and personal. But how does having a list beforehand make it a relationship of free will?

As for division on a side, I don't believe there is one. Either we're mindless automatons, or we have free will. The only side we're on is that of God's...

[The Revelator]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

Pastor I believe in free will wholeheartedly, I believe in everything your saying about free will. I know that we must chose, so going back to the meat of the matter, why do you show hatred to sinners then? And why do you think the white race is superior? (If you go back a few posts, you'll see a large post of mine where I discussed about those questions).

[Mrs. Mary Whitford]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

Thats why you must understand how Free Will works. God wanted angels and humans to worship him by choice. He didnt want to force anyone. Even though he knew what was going to happen, and even though he knew who would be Christians and who wouldn't be christians, he has given us the choice. To serve him or not. Lucifer chose to serve himself, Adam and Eve chose to serve themselves, and because of that now all of mankind must choose. No one is being forced to worship God, no one is being forced not to. Jesus did not die on the cross for the sins of the "chosen people" only. He die dfor all mankind! No one is excluded from the gift of salvation through JEsus Christ. No one!

No one... except the people He has already predestined to Hell. And as most of us agree, He knows before we're born who is going where. If He is nothing but love as you argue, wouldn't the merciful thing be to not let the unsaveable not be born in the first place, or if He needs examples of sin, then at least allow fewer numbers to be born instead of the billions of souls who are doomed to eternal punishment?
The only explanation is that He wants the majority of humanity to burn in Hell. He could easily prevent it without messing with free will, but He obviously doesn't want to. Praise!

[Rev. Dr. Davidson]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

[quote=The Revelator;40008]why do you show hatred to sinners then?
I don't believe I've shown hatred towards anyone.

And why do you think the white race is superior?
White is a term, in my opinion, that all should strive for. Anyone that is lazy, and embodies hatred, is no more white than a black hole.
[quote]

Telling someone that homosexuality is a sin, is far different from beating them to death and leaving them on a fence somewhere. While the language differences in may people vary, some things are labeled as sin while others fall into the gray areas.

Do I like the fact that over half the world wants to kill me because I'm an American? Not at all. Do I hate them for it? No, but it doesn't mean I'll allow them into my house to have that chance.

[The Revelator]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

Just because God knows who will chose and who wont, doesn't mean the choice isnt still offered.

Every human has a choice.

Let me do an example. Let's say I am watching a televsion show with a friend. It is a rerun and I have seen it before, but my friend has not. On the show, let's say a boy is wondering if he should take the cookie or not. He has to chose between right and wrong. Now I already know that he's going to make the wrong choice. But is he still given the choice? Yes. He still made the choice on his own, even though I know what he was going to do.

Even though god knows who will follow him and who wont, he still wishes to give every human A CHOICE to serve him. As Christians, we need to get out there and spread the Word to try and save as many people as we can. Because who knows, someone's eternity may be resting on the fact of if you witness to them or not. Thats why we shouldnt hate sinners. Because their is still hope for them. Instead of turning them away or killing them we need to try to help them find the Lord!

[The Revelator]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

Then why the rascism and the cruel remarks reverand? I'm not saying that YOU personally are at fault but I look through this board and I see ratial slurs and hateful remarks towards sinners that make me cringe! The way you guys refer to African Americans, Mexicans, Middle Easterns and almost every other race is cruel. Also, you guys run around calling people homers (I dont even know what this word means!) and other strange names. And once again, this sint directed just to you reverand, but to all the members posted here.

If what you said about hatred and racism is truly what this church here believes, then why isnt it being practiced on this forum?

[Rev. Dr. Davidson]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

Even though god knows who will follow him and who wont, he still wishes to give every human A CHOICE to serve him. As Christians, we need to get out there and spread the Word to try and save as many people as we can. Because who knows, someone's eternity may be resting on the fact of if you witness to them or not. Thats why we shouldnt hate sinners. Because their is still hope for them. Instead of turning them away or killing them we need to try to help them find the Lord!

That's what I mean. If it's already predestined as to who is going to hell, what's the purpose of us witnessing to them? If even those people who are predestined to burn in hell are savable, then they weren't really slated to go there.

[The Revelator]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

Well here's my question to you then.

How do we know?

how do we know who is predestined to hell and who isnt? What if you were supposed to witness to someone and they were supposed to find Christ?

What I'm trying to say is, only God knows who is going to hell and who is going to heaven. We do not. So while you guys are condeming and turning away sinners, you may be missing an oportunity to witness to someone and bring them to the truth.

[Rev. Dr. Davidson]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

The way you guys refer to African Americans, Mexicans, Middle Easterns and almost every other race is cruel.

Negro is a perfectly acceptable word. While it's not "PC", it is a word none the less. Some of it is in how you look at, and the people who read it look at it.

In my previous job, I had some employees that referred to me as whitey or white-eye. I called them towel-head, spic, and a few other names. We would have been fired is someone on high had heard it, but it was a name we used between friends.

[Rev. Dr. Davidson]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

So while you guys are condeming and turning away sinners, you may be missing an oportunity to witness to someone and bring them to the truth.

I turn no one away that argues intelligently, and thinks before they ask questions. A friendly debate is always a good thing. I am only human, and I will close up tight when attacked with no provocation.

[Mrs. Mary Whitford]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

A television rerun is an awful comparison, unless you believe in reincarnation, in which case you are no Christian. There are no human comparisons, because none of us are God and so none of us are omniscient.

So, let's look at the facts as we know them...

God wants everyone (or at least large numbers of people) to be saved.
God knows before birth who will be saved and who will not.
God could prevent most or all of the unsaved from being born, therefore preventing them from eternal damnation.
God has chosen to let billions of people be born that He knows will suffer in eternal Hellfire.

The last three make putting the bit in parenthesis quite necessary, it seems to me.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

Which is it? Free will, or predestination? You can't have it both ways. Either we're predestined, or we're free to choose. Has your liberal church convinced you that you can have your pie and eat it too?

His liberal "church" has probably convinced him that he can steal other people's pies, eat them, and still get into Heaven too!

Let me do an example. Let's say I am watching a televsion show with a friend. It is a rerun and I have seen it before, but my friend has not. On the show, let's say a boy is wondering if he should take the cookie or not. He has to chose between right and wrong. Now I already know that he's going to make the wrong choice. But is he still given the choice? Yes. He still made the choice on his own, even though I know what he was going to do.

A very good analogy. Characters in television shows have no real free will - they may appear to make independent choices, but they are ultimately subordinate to the will of their Creators. However, unlike most liberal media types, God isn't a Jew.

Why would God create people he hate and then torture them? What kind of church do you belong to?

Right, so our position is that God creates people He hates and then tortures them, but your position is that God creates people He loves, and then tortures them, but in a loving way?

[Daisy Mae Johnson]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

Well here's my question to you then.

How do we know?

how do we know who is predestined to hell and who isnt? What if you were supposed to witness to someone and they were supposed to find Christ?

What I'm trying to say is, only God knows who is going to hell and who is going to heaven. We do not. So while you guys are condeming and turning away sinners, you may be missing an oportunity to witness to someone and bring them to the truth.

BORING! BooooooRING.

Sweet Lord of Mercy I get sick of hearing these heathens whine and cry about love and equality.

GOD has brought you to GOD'S Favorite Forum™ for a reason.

Better read up son. This is your one chance at Salvation™!


P/S: Are you a nigra or a homer? You sure do complain like one.

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

Thats why you must understand how Free Will works. God wanted angels and humans to worship him by choice. He didnt want to force anyone. Even though he knew what was going to happen, and even though he knew who would be Christians and who wouldn't be christians, he has given us the choice. To serve him or not. Lucifer chose to serve himself, Adam and Eve chose to serve themselves, and because of that now all of mankind must choose. No one is being forced to worship God, no one is being forced not to. Jesus did not die on the cross for the sins of the "chosen people" only. He die dfor all mankind! No one is excluded from the gift of salvation through JEsus Christ. No one!

So, let me see if I have this right:

God offers a choice: Worship Me, or burn in Hell forever. What choice is that? It's the same as, "Be a Catholic or a Protestant. Oh, but if you choose Protestant, we'll torture you to death."

The choice you suggest is no choice at all. A choice can only be made with accurate and complete information, AND without consequences.

Those who are confused, those who are witnessed to by incompetents, those who are born in the wrong part of the world, those who are sexually abused by Catholic priests and leave religion, or those who are too dull-witted to understand His offer go to Hell forever. Some would say that this indicates that God hates stupid people and foreigners, and wants them to go to Hell. Some would say they made the wrong choice. How could they make a choice at all, in many cases?

If God loved all of these people, as you say, wouldn't He make them all capable of understanding His Word, and ensure that every person gets equal access to His Word? Yet He leaves it to the Pope and Ted Haggard and their sort. Is that love for all?

Just because God knows who will chose and who wont, doesn't mean the choice isnt still offered.

Every human has a choice.

Let me do an example. Let's say I am watching a televsion show with a friend. It is a rerun and I have seen it before, but my friend has not. On the show, let's say a boy is wondering if he should take the cookie or not. He has to chose between right and wrong. Now I already know that he's going to make the wrong choice. But is he still given the choice? Yes. He still made the choice on his own, even though I know what he was going to do.

Your analogy is flawed.

If you said that you were the director of a play, and the actors were doing their first read-through and didn't have the last pages, where only you knew who would make the decisions leading to a positive outcome, that'd be more accurate. By being director, you'd be a viewer rather than the writer/Creator. The actors follow their lines, because the script is already written. God's the one with the pages. The pages don't get rewritten as we go.

Even though god knows who will follow him and who wont, he still wishes to give every human A CHOICE to serve him. As Christians, we need to get out there and spread the Word to try and save as many people as we can. Because who knows, someone's eternity may be resting on the fact of if you witness to them or not. Thats why we shouldnt hate sinners. Because their is still hope for them. Instead of turning them away or killing them we need to try to help them find the Lord!

Tell me, if God already knows who will be Saved and who will not, what is the point of witnessing? It's PREDESTINED, REMEMBER?

May we call you Calvin?

Well here's my question to you then.

How do we know?

how do we know who is predestined to hell and who isnt? What if you were supposed to witness to someone and they were supposed to find Christ?

What I'm trying to say is, only God knows who is going to hell and who is going to heaven. We do not. So while you guys are condeming and turning away sinners, you may be missing an oportunity to witness to someone and bring them to the truth.

Again, it doesn't matter since Salvation is predestined, Calvinator. Witnessing becomes irrelevant, because nothing we do or do not do can change God's Plans.

[The Revelator]

Re: Dearborn Baptist Church is at it AGAIN!

what if it was in God's plan for you to witness to them?

Having free will is all about giving you the chance to chose, no one said each consequence had to be fair.

Now Biblethumpinblondie

You are just the thing I'm talking about when referring to being racist and hateful.

WHAT DIFFERENCE AT ALL WOULD IT MAKE IF I WAS BLACK? You are speaking straight from your sinful nature when you talk like that.

for your information, I am white, but there would be no difference at all if I was asian or mexican or what have you. You guys have to look past the skin pigment of others when you judge them. It's wrong and its unbiblical.

And you say this is my one chance for salvation? I'm sorry honey, but I'm already saved.