[Atheist_Sinner]

Re: Guns thread

Nagnt revolvers...at least the single action ones are popular in cowboy matches because they qualify. I have a new officer's model. I have never fired it, nor my new SKS, nor my Collector Grade DCM M1 Garand, still in cosmoline.

The Nagant WAS used as assassination weapon because that's all the Russians had, not because of their wonderful silencing qualities.

Tell ya what, take your .22 Ruger MkII out back with a good Ciener silencer and a .22 LR and see if you can tell the difference between that and a .22 subsonic load or a .22 short.

If you had ever shot one, or BEEN shot at, you would understand that the sonic 'boom' from a .30 cal bullet past about fifty feet from the point of fire is only audible if it passes within about three inches of your head. Then it sounds like someone cracking a dry tree branch next to your ear. I know. I have heard that sound from a 7.62x39 about five times too many.

If you want a throw-away gun, get a Makarov and build a silencer. The woods in Maryland are full of them. Get a metal detector.

I have a Chinese barrel-break airgun with a 12x scope in 6.5mm that has been used to take out a stationary target at 40 meters with a shot through the eye. The shot was not heard by the spotter twenty feet away, and it went out at 930 FPS, well over the speed of sound at sea level. It wasn't the prettiest shot I ever saw, because the target didn't die, but he was unable to do his job anymore.

As far as the sonic boom goes, its not so much the person being shot at that you need to worry about finding you. Its the man standing behind you that has the best chance of stopping you once he realizes that someone has been shot. The less noise that leaves the gun, the less likely someone is to look in your direction before you put the gun away. That doesn't matter much if you can draw someone into a private place but could mean the difference between escape or capture when going after someone who couldn't be isolated.

While its true that those were used in part because they were readily available, they were simply one of the best short-range assassination weapons on Earth. When planning an assassination, I would imagine a few hundred dollars (after adjusting for inflation) to import a good gun is the least of your worries, even if you are as poor as Cold War Russia. Using a poor weapon for an important single action makes about as much sense for a nation-state as borrowing books from a US library does for Al-Quaeda. If you're taking the time to plan something properly, you aren't going to risk it over a week's worth of minimum wage. With a well-suppressed Nagant (petroleum gel cooled and insulated baffles) and subsonic ammunition, the loudest sound to escape the gun is the click of the hammer hitting the shell. With a decent wind blowing or a car running, the shooter wouldn't hear a Nagant Revolver firing and it would hold significantly more power than any concealable air-powered weapon.

The Nagant was capable of becoming the world's quietest semi-automatic weapon and on-par with bolt-actions (custom-made if they're pistol-sized) or single-shots (lower kill reliability, inability to take out an observer, and useless for a possible but unlikely firefight afterward).

Better yet, put your head in a gas oven and turn on the gas until JESUS drop-kicks you onto SATAN's dancing pole.

So... one needs a hallucinogen to interact with Jews that have been dead for 2,000 years. A lot of things about you Christians make sense now.

[Nobar King]

Re: Guns thread

In a somewhat unrelated note: I'm sarcastic but I simply cannot muster the level required to fit in here as a "God-fearing Sociopath" but I really appreciate the good work going on here and think this is among the best "series of tubes" on the Internet.

We would agree, potential brother athiest (at least about the tubes part). Keep reading, Jesus would hate to lose you again. God knows, the Landover undercover security detail always needs good advice and information about the latest in weaponry that you can't always get at Iowa's local gun shows. I suppose it would be prudent to have a non Christian (or an ex-Christian, who knows?) around for potentially unsanctionable actions. Are you an ex-Christian, btw?

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: Guns thread

As far as the sonic boom goes, its not so much the person being shot at that you need to worry about finding you. Its the man standing behind you that has the best chance of stopping you once he realizes that someone has been shot. The less noise that leaves the gun, the less likely someone is to look in your direction before you put the gun away. That doesn't matter much if you can draw someone into a private place but could mean the difference between escape or capture when going after someone who couldn't be isolated.

While its true that those were used in part because they were readily available, they were simply one of the best short-range assassination weapons on Earth. When planning an assassination, I would imagine a few hundred dollars (after adjusting for inflation) to import a good gun is the least of your worries, even if you are as poor as Cold War Russia. Using a poor weapon for an important single action makes about as much sense for a nation-state as borrowing books from a US library does for Al-Quaeda. If you're taking the time to plan something properly, you aren't going to risk it over a week's worth of minimum wage. With a well-suppressed Nagant (petroleum gel cooled and insulated baffles) and subsonic ammunition, the loudest sound to escape the gun is the click of the hammer hitting the shell. With a decent wind blowing or a car running, the shooter wouldn't hear a Nagant Revolver firing and it would hold significantly more power than any concealable air-powered weapon.

The Nagant was capable of becoming the world's quietest semi-automatic weapon and on-par with bolt-actions (custom-made if they're pistol-sized) or single-shots (lower kill reliability, inability to take out an observer, and useless for a possible but unlikely firefight afterward).

So... one needs a hallucinogen to interact with Jews that have been dead for 2,000 years. A lot of things about you Christians make sense now.

Well, an excellent Nagant is $79.95 from JG sales. Like I said, I have a couple and, because of their age, they don't require registration. But I'm not an assassin and neither are you, so what is your point?

[Atheist_Sinner]

Re: Guns thread

We would agree, potential brother athiest (at least about the tubes part). Keep reading, Jesus would hate to lose you again. God knows, the Landover undercover security detail always needs good advice and information about the latest in weaponry that you can't always get at Iowa's local gun shows. I suppose it would be prudent to have a non Christian (or an ex-Christian, who knows?) around for potentially unsanctionable actions. Are you an ex-Christian, btw?

I'm afraid I've never been, nor can I forsee myself becoming, a Christian. I've looked at the track record for all 4 of the major theistic religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism) and have come to the conclusion that while religion may help some individual people, organized belief in one or more deities of any kind is the single worst thing to happen to mankind.

A small sample of Christianity's track record:
392CE (Common Era, for those who think Google is for the devil): Theodesius (Roman Emperor) orders the destruction of all non-Christian places of worship currently in use
435: Being a non-Christian (Jews were generally tolerated) was declared a capital crime in Rome
1209: An Army under orders from the Pope begins rampaging through Southern France killing both non-Christians and Christians who held "heretical beliefs". When asked how to determine which residents were "True Christians" they were told essentially to kill them all and let God sort them.
1095-1272: The Crusades (lots of them)
1184-mid1800s: The Inquisition(s)
Protestant Reformation Violence
"Bloody" Mary I attempts to recovnvert England to Catholicism from Aglicanism by putting high-level religious leaders to death
1930s: The Holocaust (not religiously lead but quite religiously motivated)
General persecution of every other religion
General persecution of other sects of Christianity
General persecution of homosexuals
General persecution of witches
(its important to note that "persecution of" includes vandalism, violence, and murder)

So, please, enlighten me as to exactly what would fall into the category of "unsanctionable actions" as I am at a complete loss to find an action that hasn't already been sanctioned except, perhaps, attempting to directly enlist Satan himself for your cause.

[Atheist_Sinner]

Re: Guns thread

Well, an excellent Nagant is $79.95 from JG sales. Like I said, I have a couple and, because of their age, they don't require registration. But I'm not an assassin and neither are you, so what is your point?

Your assertion that revolvers could not be silenced is untrue and that revolvers do, in fact, make more silent weapons than semi-autos. I'll agree with you though that this did get a bit out of hand.

Personally, I've considered buying a Nagant and fabricating a silencer to play with with but the prospect of that much small welding and 7.62nagant ammo costing over a buck every time you fire (from my understanding the case distorts when firing so it can't be reloaded).

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: Guns thread

Your assertion that revolvers could not be silenced is untrue and that revolvers do, in fact, make more silent weapons than semi-autos. I'll agree with you though that this did get a bit out of hand.

Personally, I've considered buying a Nagant and fabricating a silencer to play with with but the prospect of that much small welding and 7.62nagant ammo costing over a buck every time you fire (from my understanding the case distorts when firing so it can't be reloaded).

Good God, boy. Show me where I said revolvers cannot be silenced. I went to the LAPD Expo for years and never did anyone offer up a silenced revolver. There is no point to them. Furthermore, when one says 'revolvers', 1895 Nagants are not the first things that come to mind.

The gas seal system only works correctly with original 7.65 Nagant ammunition which is not subsonic, so you are talking nonsense.
You can use .32 ammo or reload 32-30 brass to subsonic loads, but the gas system doesn't seal with either of those loads. So basically, you are an idiot trying to argue a point that makes no sense about a gun you don't have.

[Atheist_Sinner]

Re: Guns thread

Good God, boy. Show me where I said revolvers cannot be silenced. I went to the LAPD Expo for years and never did anyone offer up a silenced revolver. There is no point to them. Furthermore, when one says 'revolvers', 1895 Nagants are not the first things that come to mind.

The gas seal system only works correctly with original 7.65 Nagant ammunition which is not subsonic, so you are talking nonsense.
You can use .32 ammo or reload 32-30 brass to subsonic loads, but the gas system doesn't seal with either of those loads. So basically, you are an idiot trying to argue a point that makes no sense about a gun you don't have.

You can purchase brass for this gun to handload it should you chose
to do so and a bit less powder than the commercial target rounds will give you a subsonic round or quite a bit more should give you something close to the old military load. http://www.starlinebrass.com/ Apparently these cases also tend to deform less than the standard size so they might be worth reloading after all if Starline would finish their redesign and restart manufacturing.

Even if you don't buy new brass, the commercial rounds are sometimes reloadable, they just have a tendency to deform and then split when you reshape them.

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: Guns thread

You can purchase brass for this gun to handload it should you chose
to do so and a bit less powder than the commercial target rounds will give you a subsonic round or quite a bit more should give you something close to the old military load. http://www.starlinebrass.com/ Apparently these cases also tend to deform less than the standard size so they might be worth reloading after all if Starline would finish their redesign and restart manufacturing.

Even if you don't buy new brass, the commercial rounds are sometimes reloadable, they just have a tendency to deform and then split when you reshape them.

And what? You are still talking about sticking a silencer on a reloaded round for an 1895 revolver worth $79 FOR A REASON, the mere possession of which is a guarantee of jail time.

What are you going to do...hand load old 7. 65 Berdan primed Nagant cases so you can plink subsonic rounds through a silenced Nagant revolver simply to demonstrate what an idiot you are? .45 automatic rounds are already subsonic. Why not get a tomahawk and throw it or become Binky The Ninja? Why not get a hobby you can discuss intelligently?

[Atheist_Sinner]

Re: Guns thread

And what? You are still talking about sticking a silencer on a reloaded round for an 1895 revolver worth $79 FOR A REASON, the mere possession of which is a guarantee of jail time.

What are you going to do...hand load old 7. 65 Berdan primed Nagant cases so you can plink subsonic rounds through a silenced Nagant revolver simply to demonstrate what an idiot you are? .45 automatic rounds are already subsonic. Why not get a tomahawk and throw it or become Binky The Ninja? Why not get a hobby you can discuss intelligently?

The .45 auto still has the action noise every time it fires. Anyway, silencing a semi-auto is too easy, or at least too common. There is nothing like the "what the fuck is that?" effect you'd get at a gun range from a silenced revolver that is actually silent. I'd be reloading the thing anyway since bullets are so ridiculously expensive in the proper caliber.

Its perfectly legal for me to manufacture or purchase and use a suppressor in my state as long as I fill out the appropriate forms, wait for the background check, and pay the requisite ATF tax to the Federal Government. Interestingly enough, its also legal for me to carry it attached to a concealed pistol her, assuming I also follow the similar procedure to get a concealed-carry permit. You really should realize by now the internet is a big place where people from lots of different physical places can show up so the may not always have the same gun-control laws as your area.

It's a small project intended simply to be something to spend time on as proof-of-concept. Its valuable in much the same way that the smaller SourceForge projects are. Most of the applications on SourceForge.net will never make it past marginal usefulness but its the process of creation and problem-solving that is important and the true achievement is knowledge gained from the challenges completed and issues raised and a feeling of satisfaction for having created something. The end product is more or less irrelevant.

I suppose you'd also question me if I were to weld some tubing together then attach a lawnmower engine, clutch, two wheels, a brake, and handlebars to it because I didn't really plan on using the resulting pocket bike to do any serious traveling.

[Nobar King]

Re: Guns thread

You really should realize by now the internet is a big place where people from lots of different physical places can show up so the may not always have the same gun-control laws as your area.

It's 2008, I think the wise pastor knows what the internets are.

I suppose you'd also question me if I were to weld some tubing together then attach a lawnmower engine, clutch, two wheels, a brake, and handlebars to it because I didn't really plan on using the resulting pocket bike to do any serious traveling.

Sounds like you're planning to go to burning man. Jesus can see you there, too.

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: Guns thread

The .45 auto still has the action noise every time it fires. Anyway, silencing a semi-auto is too easy, or at least too common. There is nothing like the "what the piffle is that?" effect you'd get at a gun range from a silenced revolver that is actually silent. I'd be reloading the thing anyway since bullets are so ridiculously expensive in the proper caliber.

I believe the point I just made was that you won't be reloading Berdan primed 7.65 Russian brass for reasons you stated, and the other reloads won't seal correctly when the cylinder pushes up to the barrel, negating what you consider the most valuable feature of a Nagant. The action noise of a .45 is not substantially greater than cocking and firing a Nagant, except these isn't ten minutes of 'click-click-chunk-clack' while you are trying to cock the thing.

Only sixteen states proscribe ownership of removable silencers. I am aware of the law because I have been am FFL for about thirty years. It does not apply to me anyway because, as an appointed Special Deputy Federal Marshal (one of the perks of having the Bush family in our church), I am exempt from the private ownership laws.

Be that as it may, building a 'proof of concept' silenced 125 year-old Russian pistol designed by a Frenchman for which ammunition is effectively unavailable for may not be the dumbest idea I have ever heard, but it is right up there in the top three, right up there with carrying a silenced Nagant concealed.

Its perfectly legal for me to manufacture or purchase and use a suppressor in my state as long as I fill out the appropriate forms, wait for the background check, and pay the requisite ATF tax to the Federal Government. Interestingly enough, its also legal for me to carry it attached to a concealed pistol her, assuming I also follow the similar procedure to get a concealed-carry permit. You really should realize by now the internet is a big place where people from lots of different physical places can show up so the may not always have the same gun-control laws as your area.

I think it would be a good idea if you obtained the forms from ATF, applied for a silencer for a Nagant and watch what happens.

It's a small project intended simply to be something to spend time on as proof-of-concept. Its valuable in much the same way that the smaller SourceForge projects are. Most of the applications on SourceForge.net will never make it past marginal usefulness but its the process of creation and problem-solving that is important and the true achievement is knowledge gained from the challenges completed and issues raised and a feeling of satisfaction for having created something. The end product is more or less irrelevant.

I suppose you'd also question me if I were to weld some tubing together then attach a lawnmower engine, clutch, two wheels, a brake, and handlebars to it because I didn't really plan on using the resulting pocket bike to do any serious traveling.

Nope. But you are just asking to blow yourself or a friend up and you have no business playing with guns....and that's what you are doing...playing.

I am a tactical combat firearms instructor. I carry a concealed firearm and I train several hours a week, because you never know when a goth is going to try to sneak into the church during a sermon. But firearms aren't toys. I think that if you want to play, get yourself a nice paintball gun and apply for a silencer for that. The same ATF laws apply to silencers for airguns AND paintball guns as they do to real firearms.

[Atheist_Sinner]

Re: Guns thread

Nope. But you are just asking to blow yourself or a friend up and you have no business playing with guns....and that's what you are doing...playing.

I never tried the hide that I was playing with guns. In fact, I believe just said that in my last post. There is no practical reason for me to create a silenced revolver other than the rarity of a silenced revolver.

It is legal in Kentucky to attach any legally owned silencer to any legally owned firearm regardless of the method of carry. As for getting the stamp for the silencer, for personal ownership, it requires the standard felony check and age restrictions along with the signature of the Chief Law Enforcement Officer in the applicant's area, in my case that would be a sheriff who is quite permissive on the subject of automatic rifles though I'm not sure how he views pistol suppressors. As you know, he isn't required to sign it. The signature, however, is not required on the form if the application involves a weapon or suppressor to be owned by a corporation, trust, or LLC. Meaning if the signature is refused, I can pay a <$50 KY incorporation fee and get the thing anyway with just the background check.

I'd say you may have known about that, having been in law enforcement so long, and meant instead that creation of a silencer would be illegal without another licensing process that is probably a bit more than I'd like to go through (that is the one license I don't have or at least know the reqs for). I could, however, just have a class 3 gunsmith etch a serial number on it and fill out the registration paperwork. We have 2 working within city limits (not sure of his class but I know one that does work on automatic rifles) in a town of roughly 4,000 and the surrounding cities should have at least one. The beautiful thing about Kentucky is that most rural pawn shops have a gunsmith working in the back room and that doesn't include the dedicated hobbyists and gun show dealers. One great thing about the NRA: they lobby hard to keep some method on the books for dedicated individuals to legally possess pretty much any firearm they want.

When I make one though, it will probably be kept at home in pieces rather than taken out in public just like the PVC spud cannon w/silencer I used to keep in my garage (suppressor for it is also illegal to manufacture but traditionally overlooked by law enforcement) because I sincerely doubt that my first real firearm suppressor would turn out to be as effective as I'd like though I've heard steel wool (woodworking sheets, not scouring pads), coolant, and baffles with a volume at least 1.5x(chamber + barrel) is fairly good for most pistols so I believe it'll at least match my reasonable expectations.


If I don't end up doing this, I'll just be working on ghetto claymores to see what kind of IED I can whip up with household items. All it takes is secret ingredient I don't want to be responsible for giving anyone the full method to do this as it is extremely dangerous without proper planning, vinegar, party balloons, and a remote detonator (Anything not permitting one to be completely behind cover when lighting/turning on the detonation method would be an incredibly bad idea as this thing would put out incredible amounts of shrapnel. I plan on using a used spark plug or if I run out of plugs I'll use a steel wool electrical detonator). Explosive licenses are not required by the ATF for the hydrogen gas explosive produced by chemical reactions in this device and manufacturing or possession of explosive devices requires proof of intent to endanger, damage, or destroy life or property other than one's own in order to prosecute in my state. I could be asked to stop disturbing the peace by the neighbors if they want to complain but thats about it for legal action.

Now that I think about it, I do seem to have a compulsion to create and operate dangerous things.

[Marshall]

Re: Guns thread

I carry a 1911A1 Springfield.

Everywhere.

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: Guns thread

I carry a 1911A1 Springfield.

Everywhere.

I don't. I am saving my last two cases of Lake City 30-06.

I carry either an SKS or my mini-14. I have always appreciated SKS rifles since a dink barely missed me at about 600 yards with one. Whoda thunk a 7.62x39 would do that?

[Hitoshi]

Re: Guns thread

I carry a 1911A1 Springfield.

I carry either an SKS or my mini-14.

these are good weapon for little girl. real man is carry yari or katana okay.