[Barry Desborough]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

As I stated previously, dear Sinner, this is old news. For science, it is especially old, dating from 1996. Those days they still had to do qPCR by using water baths of different temperatures for each cycle. This is old news but your quoting it shows that, similar to most atheist scientists, you fail to understand the methodology and nature of evidence in Godly Creation Science.

• You make a hypothesis. You design an experiment. Based on the results, you make conclusions. That is the twisted way that alienates people from Christ.
• Creation Science, in contrast, uses the age-old well-tested methodology and our evidence is very different from yours. We already have the evidence, the Bible and the Glorious narrative of Jesus Christ. We have no need for hypotheses. The conclusions are already there in the inerrant word of God.

2 Peter 1:20-21
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

As we now the conclusion, it is the duty of Creation Science to look at the observations and choose from them the ones that are correct and not delusional. We can do that by comparing the evidence material to the Bible. If observations support the known Truth™, they they are correct. As for the baranimological study that you quoted (it is a classic), they carefully chose the 43 characters that turned out to be correct based on the Truth™ that was not the endpoint but the startpoint of the study. Of course the morphological characteristics were meticulous chosen to support the Bible. That is our duty (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

The same goes for your retroviruses and other micro-orgasms. You should stop doing research backwards to disrupt the Truth™. I sincerely hope and pray that this will help you understand the error of your ways!


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

Science works, Elmer. This is the most important distinction between real science and your cargo-cult "science".

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

I note that you, presumably proudly, describe yourself as a "baraminologist".

Read the following.

"Derwood" on baraminology, posted in various discussion venues, e.g.

http://www.youdebate.com/cgi-bin/scarecrow/topic.cgi?forum=3&topic=59603

...They mention in the abstract “We have found that baraminic distances based on hemoglobin amino acid sequences, 12S-rRNA sequences, and chromosomal data were largely ineffective for identifying the Human holobaramin. Baraminic distances based on ecological and morphological characters, however, were quite reliable for distinguishing humans from nonhuman primates.”

The description of the morphological analysis sounds impressive – 43 characters. The morphological characters, however, I believe, were specifically selected to produce the desired results. Why do I say this? Because this paper: Mol Phylogenet Evol. 1996 Feb; 5(1): 102-54. Primate phylogeny: morphological vs. molecular results. Shoshani J, Groves CP, Simons EL, Gunnell GF.**
Was known to the authors. It contained an analysis of not 43 characters, but 264, and this analysis grouped human with chimp...

As I stated previously, dear Sinner, this is old news. For science, it is especially old, dating from 1996. Those days they still had to do qPCR by using water baths of different temperatures for each cycle. This is old news but your quoting it shows that, similar to most atheist scientists, you fail to understand the methodology and nature of evidence in Godly Creation Science.

• You make a hypothesis. You design an experiment. Based on the results, you make conclusions. That is the twisted way that alienates people from Christ.
• Creation Science, in contrast, uses the age-old well-tested methodology and our evidence is very different from yours. We already have the evidence, the Bible and the Glorious narrative of Jesus Christ. We have no need for hypotheses. The conclusions are already there in the inerrant word of God.

2 Peter 1:20-21
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

As we now the conclusion, it is the duty of Creation Science to look at the observations and choose from them the ones that are correct and not delusional. We can do that by comparing the evidence material to the Bible. If observations support the known Truth™, they they are correct. As for the baranimological study that you quoted (it is a classic), they carefully chose the 43 characters that turned out to be correct based on the Truth™ that was not the endpoint but the startpoint of the study. Of course the morphological characteristics were meticulous chosen to support the Bible. That is our duty (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

The same goes for your retroviruses and other micro-orgasms. You should stop doing research backwards to disrupt the Truth™. I sincerely hope and pray that this will help you understand the error of your ways!


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Barry Desborough]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

Dear sinner,

H.G. Wells was a product of an era that started the Darwinian mutiny against Jesus. No-one here appreciates metaphors based on his stylistically mediocre writings. As I told you earlier, we do understand the secularist claims of retroviruses and transposons being incorporated into DNA and how you calculate the differences between the base pairs of these elements. Before you load us with more of this well-known naturalistic stuff, it is time for you to assess our side of this deal.

Jesus does not care. Because of that, nor do we.

2 Timothy 2:16
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

We have assessed these claims many, many times, and found them in contradiction with the Bible. If we accepted them, we would have to discard many pivotal parts of the Bible, of which the most important is Genesis 1:27. If we discard the First Chapter of the Bible as erroneous, we can no longer trust anything. Unless you provide us with Scriptural harmonization of your data, we must stay loyal to Jesus. Based on the evidence we have (the Bible), your claims are logical, well-constructed but ultimately delusions. These delusions have been caused by people abandoning God and Christ.

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

I note that you, presumably proudly, describe yourself as a "baraminologist".

Read the following.

"Derwood" on baraminology, posted in various discussion venues, e.g.

http://www.youdebate.com/cgi-bin/scarecrow/topic.cgi?forum=3&topic=59603

Well, let’s take a look at this creationist metaphysic in action. I will let the objective, rational reader determine if this metaphysic is the superior one when dealing with issues scientific…

When I was a graduate student working on molecular phylogenetics, I discovered a series of articles in the Creationist peer-reviewed literature * dealing with the same subject.

The authors of these articles were applying computer algorithms to molecular data to determine the relationships between creatures that descended from the ‘kinds’ that were Created and were later allowed to live on the ark.

These and other papers lay out the creationist version of systematics, called Baraminology (or Discontinuity Systematics), which utilize standard computer programs and reproducible analyses using molecular data. These ‘baraminologists’ have set up an entire field of study, complete with its own bible-based terminology and concepts.

The first paper, “A Mitochondrial DNA Analysis of the Testudine Apobaramin,” 1997, DA Robinson, CRSQ 33:4 p. 262-272, examines the relationships between turtles, and establishes or at least lays out some important criteria for establishing affinity of species (baramina) – patterns of mutation bias, gaps between ingroup and outgroups, topological congruence of cladograms using differing parameters and analyses, and strong bootstrap support for the arrangements. The author was able to determine using these methods – which are essentially the same as those used by systematists – that all turtles are related via descent from a created kind, but could not resolve lower-level relationships.

The third paper dealt with cat phylogeny, and just expanded on earlier ‘proof of concept’ papers.

But the second paper was of great interest to me.

“A Quantitative Approach to Baraminology With Examples from the Catarrhine Primates,” 1998, D. Ashley Robinson and David P. Cavanaugh, CRSQ 34:4 p. 196-208, was the very subject I was working on.

Much of the paper consists of quoting/referring to Scripture, which is odd for a scientific paper but not, I assume, for a scientific paper premised on the supernaturalistic metaphysic, and outlining their justification for their “baraminic distance” criterion. This takes up about the first 4 pages. The baraminic distance is essentially equivalent to the materialistic genetic distance measure, it is just called something else.

Those pages are, save for the references to Scripture, well written and exhibit a great deal of thought. The paper gets interesting, however, when we get to the Materials and Methods section on p. 201. The title of the paper and several sentences in the introductory portion indicate that the interest here is in the Old World monkeys, not the human-ape question. Indeed, they discount that question altogether:


“Since Scriptures clearly imply that humans were specially created (Genesis 1:26-272 , 22), and thus phylogenetically distinct from other organisms, we utilize the human-nonhuman primate relationship as a control.”

This will be of interest later.

Their data consisted of 12s rRNA gene sequences, chromosomal characters, morphological characters, and ecological characters. The data were analyzed individually and as a total evidence dataset using standard phylogenetic analysis software.

It is the results and discussion in which the metaphysic of supernaturalism comes into play.

For those of you that do not know, when you set up a data matrix for analysis you utilize what is called an outgroup – a taxon that is not closely related to the group under study – for use as a ‘yardstick’ of sorts. For example, when analyzing primates you might use rabbit as an outgroup. Interestingly, as quoted above, the baraminologists use human as the outgroup in their analyses.

Outgroups must be designated prior to running the analysis, or the results will appear strange. If you designate the wrong taxon as the outgroup, your results will be strange indeed (you can, of course, run analyses without an outgroup, but these analyses were not utilized by the baraminologists).
So, when the baraminologists ran neighbor joining analyses on the data, they used human as the outgroup. NJ methods assume a constant rate of evolution, which is not indicated by either fossil or molecular evidence and so has fallen out of favor. Though they do not specifically state that they designated human as outgroup, this is what must have happened. This is because the order of the taxa in the dataset can influence the arrangement produced in NJ analyses. For example, I analyzed one of my datasets and I got an arrangement similar to the one seen in the CRSQ paper. Human is first in that dataset, so I cut and pasted it last, re-ran the analysis, and Human got stuck somewhere in the middle of the cluster (however, when I ran a bootstrap analysis, human grouped with chimp). However, when I designated a new world monkey as outgroup, I got the ‘accepted’ arrangement – human + chimp. Making human the outgroup produces an arrangement similar to the one in the CRSQ paper – NJ analyses by default use the first taxon as the outgroup unless designated otherwise. And what follows from that is the production of weakly supported topologies, since they tried to force the data to conform to a ‘non-natural’ topology. The node linking chimps and gorillas was supported with only 53% bootstrap support. That is fairly low. In a paper not constrained by the antimaterialism metaphysic, in which human is not the outgroup, chimps join gorilla with 96-100% support, depending on the data used. Forcing the data to fit a preconceived notion based on a metaphysic produces statistically significant error.

They mention in the abstract “We have found that baraminic distances based on hemoglobin amino acid sequences, 12S-rRNA sequences, and chromosomal data were largely ineffective for identifying the Human holobaramin. Baraminic distances based on ecological and morphological characters, however, were quite reliable for distinguishing humans from nonhuman primates.”

The description of the morphological analysis sounds impressive – 43 characters. The morphological characters, however, I believe, were specifically selected to produce the desired results. Why do I say this? Because this paper: Mol Phylogenet Evol. 1996 Feb; 5(1): 102-54. Primate phylogeny: morphological vs. molecular results. Shoshani J, Groves CP, Simons EL, Gunnell GF.**
Was known to the authors. It contained an analysis of not 43 characters, but 264, and this analysis grouped human with chimp.

The other data, ecological data, is the most subjective and should produce no surprise when it was this data that provided the baraminologists their ‘strongest evidence' for a separate human baramin. And what were some of these data? Things like percent foliage in diet, monogamy, population group size and density, home range size, etc. It looks to me like these data too were chosen to produce a desired outcome, for what exactly does “monogamy” have to do with descent?

Indeed, the authors state in their Discussion section:


“Character selection, not the method of analysis, is expected to be the primary factor affecting baraminic hypotheses. False conclusions can be reached unless baraminically informative data has been sampled. Since we have no a priori knowledge regarding which characters are more reliable for identifying holobaramins, it is important to evaluate the reliability of a wide variety of biological data for inferring baraminic relationships.”

And later:


“it is interesting to note that the ecological and morphological criteria were the most adept at distinguishing humans and the most highly correlated, indicating that the datasets in the strongest agreement were the most reliable.”

Yes, that is interesting – the most subjective and limited criteria are the most reliable for giving the creationist the arrangement they want…

That is, they have to pick data that give them the results they want – those that conform to Scripture.

Creationism’s metaphysic in action…

What I did not mention is this, from the section on selecting characters:


“With the exception of the Scriptural criterion no single data set is sufficient to define the holobaramin.”

Translation: Scripture gives us the answers, we need to find the data that will conform to these answers.

The ‘superior’ metaphysic in action.

*I had contacted the authors of this paper in 1999 asking for reprints and neither replied to my requests. I had to buy the issues from CRSQ. Later, after reading in the paper that the data sets were available from the authors on request, I sent an IM to DA Robinson while online one day. First he pretended not to know what I was talking about. After he acknowledged co-authoring the paper, he said something that astounded me – he said that he didn’t think the data sets even existed anymore!

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

I created this page especially for the hard of understanding

Adapted from Wikipedia: "By the year AD 802,701, humanity has evolved into two separate species: the Eloi and the Morlocks. The Eloi live a life of ease on the surface, while the Morlocks live underground, tending machinery and providing for the Eloi. Having nothing they need to do, the Eloi have slowly become like cattle, smaller than modern humans with sub-human intelligence. All they do is feed, play, and mate. When one of them, Weena, falls into a river, none of the other Eloi help her. She is rescued instead by the Time Traveler. Every so often the Morlocks capture individual Eloi for food, and because this typically happens on moonless nights, the Eloi are terrified of darkness."

How would we prove that the Eloi and the Morlocks had indeed both descended from modern humans? Well, we have signatures in our DNA that were written by retroviruses.

They put their DNA into the DNA of our cells to "fool" them into making new retroviruses.

Sometimes, a retrovirus puts its DNA into the DNA of an egg or sperm cell. When this happens, it becomes heritable - you can inherit it from your parents and pass it down to your offspring. These heritable bits of viral DNA are called ERVs - Endogenous RetroViruses. Fortunately, they no longer fully perform their original functions, otherwise, humans would be extinct.

The signature of any endogenous retrovirus is that it can be found in exactly the same place in the DNA of every single one of your nuclear cells (every cell with a nucleus - which is most of them). The viral DNA ends up in the same place because it, along with all the rest of your DNA, is copied from the DNA of the original single cell you started out as. In contrast, the viral DNA that you have acquired from viruses in the environment is not present in all of your nuclear cells, and in those where it is present, the viral DNA ends up in different points in your DNA, comparing one infected cell with another.

To recap:

Viral DNA in the same place in the DNA of every cell means that it is inherited.
Viral DNA in different places in only some of your cells means that you have caught a virus from the environment.

Now if we find that all the Eloi have the same viral DNA as us, in every cell, in exactly the same places as us, we know that they must have inherited it from us, and therefore we are their ancestors.

The same goes for the Morlocks. The same viral DNA in the same places in every cell means that the Morlocks also descend from us.

Note that we do not even need to look at our own DNA! If we find the same viral DNA in the same places in every cell of every Eloi and Morlock, they have to have had common ancestors from which they inherited it (us!).

Bear this in mind when the ERV FAQ mentions, not Eloi and Morlocks, but humans and chimpanzees!

Dear sinner,

H.G. Wells was a product of an era that started the Darwinian mutiny against Jesus. No-one here appreciates metaphors based on his stylistically mediocre writings. As I told you earlier, we do understand the secularist claims of retroviruses and transposons being incorporated into DNA and how you calculate the differences between the base pairs of these elements. Before you load us with more of this well-known naturalistic stuff, it is time for you to assess our side of this deal.

Jesus does not care. Because of that, nor do we.

2 Timothy 2:16
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

We have assessed these claims many, many times, and found them in contradiction with the Bible. If we accepted them, we would have to discard many pivotal parts of the Bible, of which the most important is Genesis 1:27. If we discard the First Chapter of the Bible as erroneous, we can no longer trust anything. Unless you provide us with Scriptural harmonization of your data, we must stay loyal to Jesus. Based on the evidence we have (the Bible), your claims are logical, well-constructed but ultimately delusions. These delusions have been caused by people abandoning God and Christ.

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Barry Desborough]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

I created this page especially for the hard of understanding

Adapted from Wikipedia: "By the year AD 802,701, humanity has evolved into two separate species: the Eloi and the Morlocks. The Eloi live a life of ease on the surface, while the Morlocks live underground, tending machinery and providing for the Eloi. Having nothing they need to do, the Eloi have slowly become like cattle, smaller than modern humans with sub-human intelligence. All they do is feed, play, and mate. When one of them, Weena, falls into a river, none of the other Eloi help her. She is rescued instead by the Time Traveler. Every so often the Morlocks capture individual Eloi for food, and because this typically happens on moonless nights, the Eloi are terrified of darkness."

How would we prove that the Eloi and the Morlocks had indeed both descended from modern humans? Well, we have signatures in our DNA that were written by retroviruses.

They put their DNA into the DNA of our cells to "fool" them into making new retroviruses.

Sometimes, a retrovirus puts its DNA into the DNA of an egg or sperm cell. When this happens, it becomes heritable - you can inherit it from your parents and pass it down to your offspring. These heritable bits of viral DNA are called ERVs - Endogenous RetroViruses. Fortunately, they no longer fully perform their original functions, otherwise, humans would be extinct.

The signature of any endogenous retrovirus is that it can be found in exactly the same place in the DNA of every single one of your nuclear cells (every cell with a nucleus - which is most of them). The viral DNA ends up in the same place because it, along with all the rest of your DNA, is copied from the DNA of the original single cell you started out as. In contrast, the viral DNA that you have acquired from viruses in the environment is not present in all of your nuclear cells, and in those where it is present, the viral DNA ends up in different points in your DNA, comparing one infected cell with another.

To recap:

Viral DNA in the same place in the DNA of every cell means that it is inherited.
Viral DNA in different places in only some of your cells means that you have caught a virus from the environment.

Now if we find that all the Eloi have the same viral DNA as us, in every cell, in exactly the same places as us, we know that they must have inherited it from us, and therefore we are their ancestors.

The same goes for the Morlocks. The same viral DNA in the same places in every cell means that the Morlocks also descend from us.

Note that we do not even need to look at our own DNA! If we find the same viral DNA in the same places in every cell of every Eloi and Morlock, they have to have had common ancestors from which they inherited it (us!).

Bear this in mind when the ERV FAQ mentions, not Eloi and Morlocks, but humans and chimpanzees!

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

As for all kinds of viruses, modern or retro, they are caused by sin. They would not have been present before the Fall from Grace

I keep trying to get back on topic but he seems to keep posting science which I know is very unreliable. After the Fall from Grace did these viruses come from fragmented parts of other creatures

ISAIAH 57 .KJV . context
20 The wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.

for example when tyrannosaurs started eating meat, which floated around to be ingested by other creatures and make them sick enough to die? We know that Grace loss affected all the universe and perhaps viruses are part of that effect in this way.

ROMANS 8 .KJV . context
20 The creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

The topic is endogenous retroviruses, and how they verify common descent. Ignore it as much as you like. It only serves to document your studied ignorance.

Look Barry, this is NOT a debate forum. This is our Church, were we get together and praise the Lord. We discuss the best way to do everything in order to reach Heaven.


So your blah blah about viruses is out of order. We are not out of order. You are.


If you have any doubts about your rights here, you can go to the welcome section. Remember: we did not invite you. You came here by yourself.


BTW, you don't get to say what is on topic and what is not. Being a High School teacher, you are a loser enough to have learnt about hierarchies, and your position at the bottom. Is the same here.

[Basilissa]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

The topic is endogenous retroviruses, and how they verify common descent. Ignore it as much as you like. It only serves to document your studied ignorance.

Do you claim to be an endogenous retrovirus?

(Since it is your INTRODUCTION thread).

Still getting spammed with PMs. Just how thick are you people? They are not being read. They go straight to junk. Post in my thread instead.

That's OK, sweetie, the point is that you are accumulating infractions and when you reach a certain quota you will be banned.

For not following the rules and sticking to the subject, which is the Holy Bible.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

The topic is endogenous retroviruses, and how they verify common descent. Ignore it as much as you like. It only serves to document your studied ignorance.

As with any parts of the genome, it is obvious that God would design Created kinds with similarities to have genomes with a high percentage of similarity. As for all kinds of viruses, modern or retro, they are caused by sin. They would not have been present before the Fall from Grace (Genesis 3:6). Since then, they have spread within and between micro-orgasms because people continue to dismiss Jesus. They are also totally irrelevant, and I am pretty sure that no True Christian™ has any, as they can easily be disposed of with Prayer.

Matthew 10:1
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Why do you assume that we would be interested in your retros? They are not supported by the Bible nor help people in their tortuos Path to Heaven?

Luke 10:41-42
And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

An on-topic post at last! Thank you. I'm not 'suggesting' that ERVs exist inside our chromosomes. We know that they do, from the complete genome sequencing of many species. They are markers that verify common ancestry. It seems that I am not permitted to link to my own educative work, but if you are interested, google "Veritas the ERV FAQ".

Well in post #4 paragraph 4 you wrote

broken retroviral insertions

and from what we've been informed by "scientists' posting here before, a virus is more than just DNA or whatever you think chromosomes are made from.

A virus is a complex structure (that means more complex than an element or simple compound such as water) comprising more components than just nucleic acid. Here is a link to the Christ denying BBC just click the picture to read their associated claims about viruses.

However viruses are made there is more to them than just nucleic acid and no fragment could actually be considered a virus. That's what "broken" means. Chromosomes are supposed to be made out of nucleic acid. How could a more complex structure than nucleic acid fit inside a strand of nucleic acid? It could not.

Also in that same post I noticed

creatures such as ourselves and chimpanzees

which is altogether wrong. There can not possibly any relationship between humans and chimpanzees because humans are a seperate creation. Additionally how could chimpanzees or viruses be made out of anything at all without a maker? What age group are you teaching? I hope no-one who'll go on to make life decisions based on your ideas.

[Barry Desborough]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

Still getting spammed with PMs. Just how thick are you people? They are not being read. They go straight to junk. Post in my thread instead.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

Your spamming will not be read.

Neither, apparently, will the content of our posts be read by you. Instead you pretend to back away and attempt to pick fights about unrelated issues. I daresay, you are the swine Jesus warned us about.

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Matthew 7:6

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

"Flat earth". *Backs slowly away, not taking eyes off until at a safe distance*

You cannot back away from the Truth, dear. It shall rain down on you like the waters above the firmament rained upon Noah and all o'er the earth when you are judged before an unshakable and irascible God.

[Barry Desborough]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

I can't read you lips, I can't see you. (If Brother Faith Machine drops in, he might suggest that you use a web cam. Personally, I would advise against it).

Besides, we would try to communicate with you on the forum if you only STAYED ON TOPIC and discussed THE HOLY BIBLE.

The topic is endogenous retroviruses, and how they verify common descent. Ignore it as much as you like. It only serves to document your studied ignorance.

[Barry Desborough]

Re: Please allow me to introduce myself

Friend, God had man write the Holy Bible, which explains EVERYTHING. Why needlessly complicate things?

Study 'creation', and not the scribblings of fallible men.