Is possible to begin to believe?

[refridgerator]

A non believer is condemned:John 3:18



Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


If I don't believe I am already condemned, so if being already condemned I cannot be not condemned If I begin to believe right now becasue I am already condemned.


A newborn being a non believer is already condemned, so we are all already condemned.


Touche!

[Dana723]

Re: Is possible to begin to believe?

I'm sure a can answer this better than I can, but my King James says:


There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Is possible to begin to believe?

Everyone is born vile. God explains that some people have been elected to an incorruptible inheritance reserved in Heaven. Christians are described as:

I Peter 1:2,4 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.….to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you.

This is Redemption. What from? From condemnation brought down on a once perfect world ruined by Eve's being deceived and contamination spread to every baby from Adam as the result. Even before the world's foundation Christ was foreordained to save us by bleeding out but don't take my word for it. Just read The Bible!

I Peter 1:18-20...Ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

Some people do not read The Bible; in places there are references to Redeemed persons.—.all of whom have been Saved by Christ, obviously.—.which those people consider to be all of humanity or even all life in their teeming universe which very few of them seem able to agree upon but the point is that there are two very distinct groups. Deluded wretches who prefer lies over truth, all of whom are damned, comprise one group. Christians are the other group. Again, no interpretation is required. God is explicit:

II Thessalonians 2:11-14...God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Satan wants to get everyone nuked before hearing about Jesus. Nothing would gratify that dreadful serpent more than to see radio isotope falling down as snow on peeling skin, every baby dead, luminous cadavers crumbling as they drop but just as Christ was chosen to redeem us so were Christians predestinated according to the pleasure of His will.

Ephesians 1:3-7 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.

So two distinct groups. Sin is the cause of condemnation; Christ is means of Redemption. It's all set out so clearly in The Bible but there are. people who don't read it. They just make up anything.

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: Is possible to begin to believe?

Everyone is born vile. God explains that some people have been elected to an incorruptible inheritance reserved in Heaven. Christians are described as:

I Peter 1:2,4 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.….to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you.

This is Redemption. What from? From condemnation brought down on a once perfect world ruined by Eve's being deceived and contamination spread to every baby from Adam as the result. Even before the world's foundation Christ was foreordained to save us by bleeding out but don't take my word for it. Just read The Bible!

I Peter 1:18-20...Ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

Some people do not read The Bible; in places there are references to Redeemed persons.—.all of whom have been Saved by Christ, obviously.—.which those people consider to be all of humanity or even all life in their teeming universe which very few of them seem able to agree upon but the point is that there are two very distinct groups. Deluded wretches who prefer lies over truth, all of whom are damned, comprise one group. Christians are the other group. Again, no interpretation is required. God is explicit:

II Thessalonians 2:11-14...God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Satan wants to get everyone nuked before hearing about Jesus. Nothing would gratify that dreadful serpent more than to see radio isotope falling down as snow on peeling skin, every baby dead, luminous cadavers crumbling as they drop but just as Christ was chosen to redeem us so were Christians predestinated according to the pleasure of His will.

Ephesians 1:3-7 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.

So two distinct groups. Sin is the cause of condemnation; Christ is means of Redemption. It's all set out so clearly in The Bible but there are. people who don't read it. They just make up anything.

Thanks a lot Sister Mitza. It is unbelievable how many pseudo Christians always try to make the Bible look bad.


Your account is a very good one, but let me do a briefer version (spoiler alert):


1) God created the world and it was perfect. A paradise.
2) Eve disobeyed God. God does not like that.
3) So she and Adam were kicked out, and the animals too (don't know why, but they were) and now, as punishment, you have to work
4) If you obey God, you go with Him.
5) Guess what? People disobeyed God. So let's start over, said God, and killed every man and every beast except for some lucky ones. Again, the animals were also wiped out, don't know why.
6) By this point, you might think people said, "ok, we are now all part of the same family again, we should behave and obey this God that gets mad when we not". No, they sinned again. And again. Starting with Noah's son! not even a generation without sinners!
7) So after a while, he sent some instruction in stone (I think God said at the time "how did I not think of this before! They can obey better if they have the rules!" - But hey, it is difficult to be God and do all the things a God does).
8) Rules were quite easy to follow. But only to a group of people in a desert. He decided to quit trying to save everyone and only focus on this goat herders that just escaped from Egypt.
9) As God had play a big role in making them scape from Egypt, you might think they behave this time. But no, they didn't. So While Moses was writing the firsts chapters of the Bible, God started to see people sinning again...
10) This time the instructions were tighter. Obey all the Bible, people, all of it. Or you will face what Sodoma and Gomorra had to face.
11) People did not understand this neither. So God thougt "I am an Allmighty being, I can do as I please. Everything but making them understand tht I am for real. What should I do? Wiping them out did not work, kicking them out from Paradise really backfired, and sending them detailed instructions of what to do only showed they were stupid people". So next plan, "I will send my Son (didn't I tell you about Him? Sorry I forgot to mention Him in the first part of the Bible, but the second is all about Him! Sorry!)"
12) So His son came, with good news: if you believe in Me, and my Father, and the Holy Ghost, but at the same time adore only one God, and follow all the steps from the Old Book but the ones that I change in the New Book, then you will go to Heaven.
13) After the BIG sacrifice of dying for a few hours, you might think this time people realized and changed their ways. Well no, and for the next 2000 years God did only send hurricanes and earthquakes, big fires and tsunamis as warnings for sin. A little bit more complicated to decipher than what He did before, yes, but hey, nothing worked with Humans.
14) He loves us. Don't forget that. Otherwise, He would have quit a while ago and leave us alone and only with this mortal life. What a void would all have, if we knew for sure that after death is nothing else!15) So we were left in this position: we are born, we don't believe, at some point of our lives we hear about Jesus and God, and we either start believing or not. Those who start, leave the state of condemnation and enter Heaven. Those who not, go to Hell.


Easier, impossible.

[refridgerator]

Re: Is possible to begin to believe?

Can you concentrate your argument in John 3:18?

[James Hutchins]

Re: Is possible to begin to believe?

Can you concentrate your argument in John 3:18?

Before you take yet another step into the abyss of Hell, consider the following:
Isaiah 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

John 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
John 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

1st Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1st Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1st Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1st Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1st Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1st Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1st Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1st Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1st Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1st Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1st Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1st Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1st Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1st Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.



Now that we have that out of the way, let's look at John fully exposed with the KJV.
John 3
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Ok, let that sink in while you wade about in the fire and brimstone, the stench of putrified flesh searing your nostrils.

Now lets look specifically at
John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It is crystal clear that all people are born with sin. All are horrible creatures. It is a great place to start life because you can only improve things. Why do you hate having the opportunity to improve you life?

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: Is possible to begin to believe?

Can you concentrate your argument in John 3:18?

Cherry picking? No thanks. The whole Bible.

[Shenanigans Brown]

Re: Is possible to begin to believe?

A non believer is condemned:John 3:18



Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


If I don't believe I am already condemned, so if being already condemned I cannot be not condemned If I begin to believe right now becasue I am already condemned.


A newborn being a non believer is already condemned, so we are all already condemned.


Touche!

Why believe if it is all fake?

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: Is possible to begin to believe?

Why believe if it is all fake?

It is not all fake. The Bible says is not fake. There is a fundamental discovery you have to make yet.


Even though he quotes the wrong Bible, there is a lot of logic, supreme logic, in this post here:


https://www.news24.com/MyNews24/A-Bi...tence-20120504

What I've been loving recently about News24 is that seemingly the main topic of discussion is probably the most important discussion of all. Does God exist? We have to realize, friends, that this is not just about having the best argument and winning the debate. Its about truth. You see, logically, one side is fatally wrong, and the other is distinctly correct. One side promotes a life that will eventually be proved useless and the other utilizes its earthly time correctly (be it freely without God or in worship of God). And then of course, if God does exist, by the same premise of logic only one religion can be true, and all others flukes. They are no better than those who live as though He didn't exist.

That is why it is essential that in this discussion we put aside all anger and strife and really take a deep breath and consider the other side. You do realize that if God exists, then if you're in willful sin, you are in trouble, right? And as the Apostle Paul of the Bible says, believer, you are to be most pitied if what you believe in is a sham. You ought to eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you die!

Now in my next couple of posts I shall be calling up to the witness stand some Bible verses that I believe not only prove God's existence, but substantiate Christ as the only Way to God. These are not verses that've been used much, if at all, in this debate and I'm hoping they might bring some perspective. Only one verse today:

"so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and thegood, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Matthew 5:45

Isn't it ironic that one of the main arguments against the Christian God ( I say "Christian God" because only in Christianity does He claim to be love) is all the suffering in the world, even though the Bible explicitly explains the answer. Why does He allow it? Well, let's start here, if a loving God does not exist, then why is it that wicked people all around have sunshine and rain? I mean, if we are judging by some pantheistic moral standard that we have made up, then why is it that our self made God doesn't withhold food and drink from the wicked? Do we even understand what we are asking for when we ask for all suffering to end? Do we realize that we are asking Him to swipe the world clean of us? Yes, my friend, you and I. We are so evil we cant even hide it. I mean, we read the news, don't we? What do we find here almost every day? Atrocities upon atrocities caused not by nature but by humans on other humans. Yet God still sends us sunshine and rain. Imagine this. The guy who raped a little girl is going to get water to drink tomorrow. But why?

Well, only Christianity can answer that question."God shows us His love in this, that whilst we were still sinners, Chris died for us." Romans 5:8. You see, my fiend, the fact that everyone on earth, the ones we deem "wicked" and those we deem "good", both have sunshine and rain, and eat and are filled, is proof of not only God's existence (by virtue of the fact that He is good and merciful) but also that the Christian view is the only accurate one because it explains why God would allow this. That all might come to redemption by the blood of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who lived, died under the wrath of God and rose again for the forgiveness of all who would turn away from their wickedness and believe in His name.

See? Crystal clear.


PS: ALL LIVES MATTER, not only yours.

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Re: Is possible to begin to believe?

If I don't believe I am already condemned, so if being already condemned I cannot be not condemned If I begin to believe right now becasue I am already condemned.

Okay, I have read this sentence three times and am none the wiser. Does it actually contain any meaning, in the usual sense of the word?

[BibleReader2231]

Re: Is possible to begin to believe?

I believe it's entirely possible. I believe there's a church elder in Landover who's former Catholic who saw the light.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Is possible to begin to believe?

You had already posted John 3:18 and brought up the topic of condemnation. The Bible addresses that point. There is no argument going on, God is particularly lucid on this subject.

III John 1:11

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Re: Is possible to begin to believe?

Too true, Sister Mitza. But I am also frankly discouraged by this person's repeated false links:

A non believer is condemned:John 3:18

You will see that this takes the unwary to some peculiar version of the Bible, rewritten and published in 2001, presumably intended for the cherry-picking community. One despairs. One really does.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: μονογενους

Thanks for pointing that out. John chapter 3 is so familiar I just remembered it and had thought the post was expressing thoughts following on from reading it.

The omission of "begotten" from the text is particularly worrying. Is there a special magic Jesus conjured out of ectoplasm being proposed? Such a Jesus would not be human.

James 1:12-13 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

Now if God were reproducing asexually by mitosis and relocating one of His selves to this world how could He be tempted? Or were the Christ to communicate by mass hallucination from aloft, how could He experience hunger?

Matthew 4:1-4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Begetting is essential to produce human offspring. Divine progeny cannot be tempted. Jesus was. tempted and so we know that Jesus was begotten.

Here is the comparison:

JOHN 3:18 . ESV. .look up
Whoever believes in him is not condemned
but whoever does not believe is condemned already
because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God

JOHN 3:18 .KJV. .look up
He that believeth on him is not condemned
but he that believeth not is condemned already
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

Attempting to change Christ's very nature like that is rather disturbing. What next? A Jesus who isn't even God? He created the whole world (and the stars) and came down to die for us as John's Gospel explains right there in chapter one! The whole passage is available by clicking more » in the hover-link:

John 1:1.ff. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.….All things were made by him.….And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us

Ultimately we'd be led up a path where Jesus was neither human nor divine and therefore not able to remain sin free in the face of temptation or offer Himself as the perfect sacrifice to redeem us from the condemnation referred to in the first post.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Is possible to begin to believe?

Can you concentrate your argument in John 3:18?

No. You have taken the verse at random and without any thought or context.

This is indicative of the deep ignorance as displayed by atheists, Catholics and the generally unsaved.

The context is:
Joh:3:14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh:3:15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh:3:17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

All you have to do is
1. Believe in Him.
this puts you in a position to
2. Accept Him as your Savior
this then puts you in a position in which you are "Saved"*
3. This then opens the possibility of entering Heaven**

*From Romans 3:24-25 because (John 1:29), and Isaiah 53:6. Despite the fact that we all have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). Therefore, Mark 13:31.

**Romans 9:16 onwards