[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

Fondling is not massaging.

I think what's being said is that massage is fondling. Think of it like birds and sparrows. All sparrows are birds but not birds are sparrows. Similarly, all massage is fondling but not all fondling is massage.

Thank you for answering everyone's questions. I'm still interested how you determined that there's no underlying asiatic philosophy with the ashiatsu and, since the question is implied, do you only massage one gender? I'm assuming you'd agree "gender" is pretty much a made up word when applied to people but anyhow if you could cover those points it would help set my mind at ease.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

OK

–.–
–.–I see you've made it to the Intro. forum, getting closer.
–.–Link goes to to where you can post your own introduction.

[Alex112]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

I think what's being said is that massage is fondling. Think of it like birds and sparrows. All sparrows are birds but not birds are sparrows. Similarly, all massage is fondling but not all fondling is massage.

Thank you for answering everyone's questions. I'm still interested how you determined that there's no underlying asiatic philosophy with the ashiatsu and, since the question is implied, do you only massage one gender? I'm assuming you'd agree "gender" is pretty much a made up word when applied to people but anyhow if you could cover those points it would help set my mind at ease.

There really isnt any underlying philosophy it's a proven therapy that helps many people in fact many non religious people are ashiatsu massage practitioners and many Christian's are massage therapists to.


I mean from what I know about it I havent found anything....religious or cultish about it it's just a therapy....


Gender welll...I mean massaging either gender isnt sexual at all so massaging both to help them...it seems fine to me...nothing gay about it it's a massage there are male physical therapists that help men and that's not sexual at a (dont take this the wrong way)

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

it's a proven therapy that helps many people in fact many non religious people are ashiatsu massage practitioners and many Christian's are massage therapists to...

Dear Sinner,

OK. I'll humor you and we'll look at the ashiatsu massage from the viewpoint of secular science. Is it a "proven therapy"? This question can be formulated as "Are there peer-reviewed scientifically valid studies including meta-analyses that show efficacy of ashiatsu therapy to existing actual diagnostic conditions?".

1. By searching the PubMed database we can conclude that there are exactly zero (0) studies focusing specifically on ashiatsu.
2. There is exactly one (1) paper that mentions ashiatsu, this is in the article's search strategy section, i.e., which keywords the authors used to search for data, the search with "ashiatsu" yielded 0 results in this case.

Conclusion: It is not a "proven therapy". Its efficacy is thus not determined. To determine it, you would need to study each and every condition, for which you plan to give this therapy. Generally, regarding massage therapies, the efficacy is low. Let's take an example, lower back pain (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3772691/):

...massage may be an effective treatment option in the short term when compared to placebo and some active treatment options (such as relaxation). However, there are conflicting and contradictory findings for the effectiveness of massage therapy for the treatment of nonspecific low back pain when compared against other manual therapies (such as mobilization, standard medical care, and acupuncture)...

Conclusion: Ashiatsu is a typical "CAM"-therapy, the effects of which are mostly placebo effects. This may change if rigorous research is conducted and new evidence thus appears.

Some caveats for you:

• Anecdotal evidence is weak evidence. Concentrating just on those who feel that they've gained benefits sidesteps many confounding factors, such as spontaneous improvement, placebo due to a nice therapist, the patients' tendency to try to please the therapist, confirmation bias of only focusing on those who feel benefits, dismissal of other hypotheses, disregard for zero improvement and worsening, etc. etc.
• The burden of proof is on you and all those who use and financially benefit from offering "therapies" that have no scientific evidence. This means that it is your duty to show that the therapy is efficient (with double-blind case-control studies for each symptom you use the therapy for), it is not the duty of actual scientists (even secular) to prove that the "therapy" is inefficient.
• Referring to random web-pages or books written by proponents of this therapy that include "patient testimonials" is just anecdotal evidence, which is not proof.
• Your justification of "many people" and "many non-religious people" and "many Christians" is just a typical fallacy called ad populum, referring to numbers of proponents. Appeal to numbers (ad populum) is an extremely weak argument. "Many people" can be wrong about many things. If you choose the "many people" claim as proof, do you accept it in each and every case, for instance when it comes to "many, many actual scientists say that ashiatsu is unproven"?
• The use of therapies without scientific evidence means that it is based on faith. That does not make it True™ and not false. It makes it unproven. (if you wish to study evidence for the Bible, read all the available material here on our Forum)

Ergo, you are studying to use a therapy, the evidence of which is at best anecdotal, narratives of "healing". Please tell us, in which way you find this to be ethical? Simply referring to the patients' stories won't suffice. At best, these anecdotes can form the hypotheses for actual scientific studies. As far as the actual medical science has diverged from Jesus, it is at least based on millions (it is, really) of actual studies and not hearsay. We don't need it (because of Jesus) but I must admit that those who are incapable (John 9:31) of actual effectual fervent prayers (James 5:16). From the Biblical (and scientific) view, this ashiatsu seems exactly like wizardry or pseudoscience.

Leviticus 20:6
And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.



Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Alex112]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

Dear Sinner,

OK. I'll humor you and we'll look at the ashiatsu massage from the viewpoint of secular science. Is it a "proven therapy"? This question can be formulated as "Are there peer-reviewed scientifically valid studies including meta-analyses that show efficacy of ashiatsu therapy to existing actual diagnostic conditions?".

1. By searching the PubMed database we can conclude that there are exactly zero (0) studies focusing specifically on ashiatsu.
2. There is exactly one (1) paper that mentions ashiatsu, this is in the article's search strategy section, i.e., which keywords the authors used to search for data, the search with "ashiatsu" yielded 0 results in this case.

Conclusion: It is not a "proven therapy". Its efficacy is thus not determined. To determine it, you would need to study each and every condition, for which you plan to give this therapy. Generally, regarding massage therapies, the efficacy is low. Let's take an example, lower back pain (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3772691/):
Conclusion: Ashiatsu is a typical "CAM"-therapy, the effects of which are mostly placebo effects. This may change if rigorous research is conducted and new evidence thus appears.

Some caveats for you:

• Anecdotal evidence is weak evidence. Concentrating just on those who feel that they've gained benefits sidesteps many confounding factors, such as spontaneous improvement, placebo due to a nice therapist, the patients' tendency to try to please the therapist, confirmation bias of only focusing on those who feel benefits, dismissal of other hypotheses, disregard for zero improvement and worsening, etc. etc.
• The burden of proof is on you and all those who use and financially benefit from offering "therapies" that have no scientific evidence. This means that it is your duty to show that the therapy is efficient (with double-blind case-control studies for each symptom you use the therapy for), it is not the duty of actual scientists (even secular) to prove that the "therapy" is inefficient.
• Referring to random web-pages or books written by proponents of this therapy that include "patient testimonials" is just anecdotal evidence, which is not proof.
• Your justification of "many people" and "many non-religious people" and "many Christians" is just a typical fallacy called ad populum, referring to numbers of proponents. Appeal to numbers (ad populum) is an extremely weak argument. "Many people" can be wrong about many things. If you choose the "many people" claim as proof, do you accept it in each and every case, for instance when it comes to "many, many actual scientists say that ashiatsu is unproven"?
• The use of therapies without scientific evidence means that it is based on faith. That does not make it True™ and not false. It makes it unproven. (if you wish to study evidence for the Bible, read all the available material here on our Forum)

Ergo, you are studying to use a therapy, the evidence of which is at best anecdotal, narratives of "healing". Please tell us, in which way you find this to be ethical? Simply referring to the patients' stories won't suffice. At best, these anecdotes can form the hypotheses for actual scientific studies. As far as the actual medical science has diverged from Jesus, it is at least based on millions (it is, really) of actual studies and not hearsay. We don't need it (because of Jesus) but I must admit that those who are incapable (John 9:31) of actual effectual fervent prayers (James 5:16). From the Biblical (and scientific) view, this ashiatsu seems exactly like wizardry or pseudoscience.

Leviticus 20:6
And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.



Yours in Christ,

Elmer

Actually there is proof it is a proven therapy


Especially for chronic pain because that type of massage apply pressure to the deeper layers of soft tissue the technique can be effective at relieving chronic pain in addition to loosening muscles it helps increase circulation just do to the pressure alone

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

Actually there is proof it is a proven therapy

Especially for chronic pain because that type of massage apply pressure to the deeper layers of soft tissue the technique can be effective at relieving chronic pain in addition to loosening muscles it helps increase circulation just do to the pressure alone

Very well, dear Sinner.

• "There is proof". Where is it? You're just giving your own testimony: this is the fallacy of appeal to personal authority. We have no way to know if your words are true or not, if you're sincere or not, it you've been misled or not.
• "Especially for chronic pain". OK. Which type of chronic pain? Neuralgias? Osteoarthrosis? Autoimmune diseases? Late effect's of Lyme's borreliosis? Phantom pains? Show us the actual peer-reviewed studies and the meta-analyses based on them, please. Each and every one of these causes of chronic pain (and many other aetiologies) will have to be assessed one by one.
• Helps include circulation". OK. Arterial? Venous? Capillaries? Cardiac output? Mediated by what? The juxtaglomelural apparatus? Removal of soft atherosclerotic lesions? How was it studied? What was the methodology? How did they measure changes in circulation and who were they who measured it? Did you?

You gave us exactly what I warned you against: just a simple naïve personal assertion. It is not proof. Do you understand how scientific evidence differs from your simple claims? I'm asking this in all sincerity. I am not saying that ashiatsu is useless. You've just given us no indication whatsoever that it would be useful.

Proverbs 15:14
The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.

You really need to do much much better. Usually the first step to understanding is the realization of one's own ignorance. I'm counting on you to do some actual investigation if you wish to continue this discussion.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Alex112]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

Very well, dear Sinner.

• "There is proof". Where is it? You're just giving your own testimony: this is the fallacy of appeal to personal authority. We have no way to know if your words are true or not, if you're sincere or not, it you've been misled or not.
• "Especially for chronic pain". OK. Which type of chronic pain? Neuralgias? Osteoarthrosis? Autoimmune diseases? Late effect's of Lyme's borreliosis? Phantom pains? Show us the actual peer-reviewed studies and the meta-analyses based on them, please. Each and every one of these causes of chronic pain (and many other aetiologies) will have to be assessed one by one.
• Helps include circulation". OK. Arterial? Venous? Capillaries? Cardiac output? Mediated by what? The juxtaglomelural apparatus? Removal of soft atherosclerotic lesions? How was it studied? What was the methodology? How did they measure changes in circulation and who were they who measured it? Did you?

You gave us exactly what I warned you against: just a simple naïve personal assertion. It is not proof. Do you understand how scientific evidence differs from your simple claims? I'm asking this in all sincerity. I am not saying that ashiatsu is useless. You've just given us no indication whatsoever that it would be useful.

Proverbs 15:14
The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.

You really need to do much much better. Usually the first step to understanding is the realization of one's own ignorance. I'm counting on you to do some actual investigation if you wish to continue this discussion.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

Alot of massages especially deep tissue helps with most chronic pain especially phantom pains it also helps blood ciculations because its warming up the muscles due to the pressure


The pressure helps blood circulation muscles etc to start going due to the pressure...its...now that hard to understand


I mean...I can give you some first hand reviews by people who've had it done for them and stopped feeling pain

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

Did you actually read my previous posts?

Alot of massages especially deep tissue helps with most chronic pain especially phantom pains it also helps blood ciculations because its warming up the muscles due to the pressure

This is yet another simple claim, the fallacy of appeal to personal authority. Won't do. Give us the actual peer-reviewed medical papers that have studied this. Journal, year, volume, page range and the name of at least the first author with affiliation.

The pressure helps blood circulation muscles etc to start going due to the pressure...its...now that hard to understand

Give us the actual peer-reviewed medical papers that have studied this. Journal, year, volume, page range and the name of at least the first author with affiliation. Also, why is it necessary or useful to make blood circulate more rapidly? What is the temperature that needs to be attained to have this effect? What is the amount of pressure in SI units that is required, range and standard deviations, please. Who studied this and how? This was also another appeal to personal authority. In addition, even if it is "hard", try me. I know this stuff. I don't think that it is that hard to understand. In fact, you're making the fallacy of personal incredulity by appealing to personal ignorance.

I mean...I can give you some first hand reviews by people who've had it done for them and stopped feeling pain

This is once again exactly what I warned you against. Personal testimonies are very weak evidence. Anecdotes won't do. Do you accept the Book of Mormon? That was justified by personal testimonies. Do you accept that the caste system of India makes the country run most smoothly? That is backed by several reviews by Brahmins. Narratives can sometimes be - as I mentioned - useful as case studies to construct a work hypothesis for actual studies. I am not interested in this type of evidence.

1 Peter 2:15
For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

In summary:

• Claims are not enough without actual studies. You're now making them with the fallacy of ad nauseam as if by repetition something would be true.
• Personal testimonials that you call "reviews" are not enough. The confounding factors are not controlled for with them.
• Something being hard to understand is not enough. You just need to study more.
• You never answered why you think that it is ethical to make good money from a practice that has no scientific basis.

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[James Hutchins]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

Fondling is not massaging. You are mixing the two up. Id never ever fondle someone that's a sin. I never said I would fondle someone. I was talking about massaging not fondling

This sort of word dance two step is the problem today.

People read the Bible and then say 'Well, that is not what God meant, what God really meant was...' Well, let me tell you. God says what He means and means what He says. He has already dumbed down the Bible about as far as He could, using the plainest of words and repeating the messages over and over and over without wavering.
Anytime you touch the flesh of another is fondling. Feeling, groping. Someone is deriving pleasure. The fact that you want to service people and get paid for it makes you a prostitute.
People like you try to 'interpret' His Perfect Word(c) all the time to justify their acts and lives of perversion.


Be honest, is your goal to service people for money? God sees what you do and come Judgement Day(tm) you WILL pay a hefty price for your perversion.

[Isabella White]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

Fondling is not massaging. You are mixing the two up. Id never ever fondle someone that's a sin. I never said I would fondle someone. I was talking about massaging not fondling

Dear Miss Alex: Goodness; I can see that much is being made of this "massage" business, and I must say that it's because we, the servants of the , have heard of so many examples of sinful activity in these "massage parlors" (a term used loosely to describe many a den of debauchery.)

Why, in the attached video clip, you will see an example of how improper conduct was propositioned to a client. (Parents, you might wish to send the kiddies out of the room before playing this video.) Heaven above! Is this the way that these "massage parlors" operate? This sort of activity is disgusting, and how it makes the grieve. I mean, it's not like the client was visiting with our beloved Paul!

Acts 28:8 "And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him."

You might wish to think twice, Miss Alex, before entering into such a "profession" -- unless you wish to have the title, "massage therapist", associated with "lady of the night".

[James Hutchins]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

I can just picture Alexandra here, in the massage parlor. Pouring heated oil all over a clients naked body. Grabbing handfuls of slippery flesh, protruding from the fingers. Under the clients thighs. Higher... higher. The poor client, drugged by the air filled with Frankincense and Myrrh, the devils sounds of the pacific rim hot houses. Unable to resist the seduction and humiliation of what comes next. The demand for an additional $10 ($15 for oration) for a happy ending to this tale of depravity and the threat of posting the encounter online. A sordid tale indeed. As a decent and unperverted True Christian(tm) I for one, do not want to see this ever happen. Not even for $20!

[Maria Knight]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

...(some talk about "massaging" and touching strangers)...

You seem extremely... obsessed... with this particular subject. No matter how you try and justify it, it leads to depravity and sin.


If you obsessed over the Bible (King James version, that is), then perhaps you could overcome whatever weird fetish the Devil put in you and find a real job that God and Jesus would be proud of!

[Alex112]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

You seem extremely... obsessed... with this particular subject. No matter how you try and justify it, it leads to depravity and sin.


If you obsessed over the Bible (King James version, that is), then perhaps you could overcome whatever weird fetish the Devil put in you and find a real job that God and Jesus would be proud of!

The massage proffession is not sinful. Dont knownwhere you guys got that idea. Sex out of marriage is sinful and debauchery is sinful massages arent sinful I cant keep explaining this

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

• You never answered why you think that it is ethical to make good money from a practice that has no scientific basis.

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

I'm still actually waiting for you to answer that question.

The massage proffession is not sinful. Dont knownwhere you guys got that idea. Sex out of marriage is sinful and debauchery is sinful massages arent sinful I cant keep explaining this

How do you know? If you wish to provide evidence about things sinful and immaculate you should, similar to science, provide actual research data. In the case of sin, what is your source to determine when an action belongs to that category? Hint: We use it all the time. Without data you're once again just giving us opinions and your opinions may be correct or false but without evidence they're the Schrödinger's cat of Truth™. As for proof, the Bible also states plainly that it needs to be demonstrated.

Exodus 15:25
And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them,

The Lord showed evidence. Are we to determine that you're so much more reliable and faultless that your plain assertions would suffice?


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Maria Knight]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

The massage proffession is not sinful. Dont knownwhere you guys got that idea. Sex out of marriage is sinful and debauchery is sinful massages arent sinful I cant keep explaining this

Sin makes one unclean. Many people who stumble through so-called "massage" parlors are unrepentant of their own sins, therefore making them unclean.


Leviticus 5:3 Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty.

Not to mention that touching the semiclothed or completely unclothed body during the act of massaging is a very slippery slope to all kinds of debauchery.