Okay seriously...

[Keith-Charleson]

Is this forum serious or just a haven for trolls to troll?

[Brother V]

Re: Okay seriously...

If I'm serious, does that make you a troll?

I'm pretty sure I'm serious?

I'm definitely not a troll, I don't live under a bridge and say "pay a toll".

Even if I did, I'd probably say that while sounding serious.

Seriously.

[Keith-Charleson]

Re: Okay seriously...

If I'm serious, does that make you a troll?

I'm pretty sure I'm serious?

I'm definitely not a troll, I don't live under a bridge and say "pay a toll".

Even if I did, I'd probably say that while sounding serious.

Seriously.

So you do not accept Jesus Christ?

[Jeb Stuart Thurmond]

Re: Okay seriously...

We are not a haven for trolls, in fact we ban them faster than most forums. If you want an introduction read this, or if you prefer an outside source, read this.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Okay seriously...

So you do not accept Jesus Christ?

Have you read anything at all on LandoverBaptist.net? There's a clue in the title. Look at the top of the page.

Oh, my apologies, I have suddenly realized that God could have cursed you with blindness and retardism.

[A sub Human]

Re: Okay seriously...

Is this forum serious or just a haven for trolls to troll?

It's basically a cult of right-wing Caucasian Christians. They hate all other races/religions that have different views than them. They take every verse out of scripture 100 percent literally, and condemn all to hell who don't.

That's a quick summary.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Okay seriously...

Well, my friend AH, you have a good idea of who you think we are.

But let's cut to the core of Life, The Universe, and Everything.

There is evil in the world.

Why?

Rational atheists would say, "Evil is just part of the universe. We don't have an explanation, it just is."

Buddhists would say, "Evil is caused by unenlightened beings. In their misunderstanding they spread bad karma, and that is the creation of evil."

We say, "Almighty God made everything."

Now, I ask you: with respect to evil in the world, what does that last statement imply?

~~ OEJ

Post scriptum: I'm not attacking you. I am doing what called "opening a dialogue."

[A sub Human]

Re: Okay seriously...

Well, my friend AH, you have a good idea of who you think we are.

But let's cut to the core of Life, The Universe, and Everything.

There is evil in the world.

Why?

Rational atheists would say, "Evil is just part of the universe. We don't have an explanation, it just is."

Buddhists would say, "Evil is caused by unenlightened beings. In their misunderstanding they spread bad karma, and that is the creation of evil."

We say, "Almighty God made everything."

Now, I ask you: with respect to evil in the world, what does that last statement imply?

~~ OEJ

Post scriptum: I'm not attacking you. I am doing what called "opening a dialogue."

You completely evaded my "observation" of who you and your group are, by attempting to come across as wise by telling me your religious institution's view. Nothing you said actually came from your own thoughts, only that of which you've been told.

You've also forgotten a few things.

Rational Atheists do not have a uniform belief, therefore each one you'd ask would give their own form of belief on why evil is in the world.
This is the same with Bhuddists.

Why is there evil in the world you ask me? Interesting. Firstly, you have to realize all people have a different view on what "Evil" is, due to their conditioning. In my OPINION (notice how I do not try to make my opinion come off as factual), I belief evil is in the world simply because of human's greed and self-interest.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Okay seriously...

Human's greed and self-interest causes evil? That caused the tsunami in Asia which killed 29,866 people?

Certainly the death of so many human beings is evil, yes?

Your answer appears to need revision.

If Almighty God created everything, whence evil?

(This is a very easy question, incidentally.)

~~ OEJ

[A sub Human]

Re: Okay seriously...

Human's greed and self-interest causes evil? That caused the tsunami in Asia which killed 29,866 people?

Certainly the death of so many human beings is evil, yes?

Your answer appears to need revision.

If Almighty God created everything, whence evil?

(This is a very easy question, incidentally.)

~~ OEJ

You compare a natural disaster to the idealism of "Evil." Now that could be interpreted in many ways by your fellow peers.

Some of you would say it happened because God was punishing them for their evil. (All though I could counter it by saying "Didn't God promise not to ever destroy with a flood again in Genesis?"

The death of human beings is natural isn't it? That's what makes us mortal? The definition of evil is "morally objectionable behavior." So how exactly could a natural disaster like a Tsunami apply to morality?

Funny, because in Genesis God "cleansed the world" of sin using a flood. So if a flood and mass death of human beings is evil, did God commit an act of evil? I already know your response, so don't bother answering this little bit.


As I've already said, evil exists because of people's greed and self-interest.

By the way, I do appreciate your maturity in this. I'm aware some of you would probably have just verbally attacked me for my comment. Please, reply.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Okay seriously...

"The definition of evil is 'morally objectionable behavior.'"

I disagree. That is a definition of human action, but evil should be defined as "that which causes suffering, pain, and death."

Many churches would say that God punishes people by inflicting suffering, pain, and death through mechanisms like "natural" disasters. (We can return to the concept of God's vengefulness later...)

But there is a plain answer that will be denied by 95% of all Christian churches: God created everything: therefore God created moral evil.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

Some churches literally rewrite the Bible so that the above passage comes out "I make harmonies and disharmonies" in order to disguise the plain truth. But old Isaiah knew the score: if God created everything, then God created evil in the universe. It's a logical necessity.

Knowing that God created evil, I personally would move on to the root moral underpinnings of the Bible, which are closely related to theodicy (which is the poncy term for what we have been discussing). They are surprising to most Christians.

Forgive me for being abrupt and clumsy in my writing; it's a long time since I have felt the call to preach on this forum and I am rusty.

~~ OEJ

[A sub Human]

Re: Okay seriously...

"The definition of evil is 'morally objectionable behavior.'"

I disagree. That is a definition of human action, but evil should be defined as "that which causes suffering, pain, and death."

Many churches would say that God punishes people by inflicting suffering, pain, and death through mechanisms like "natural" disasters. (We can return to the concept of God's vengefulness later...)

But there is a plain answer that will be denied by 95% of all Christian churches: God created everything: therefore God created moral evil.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

Some churches literally rewrite the Bible so that the above passage comes out "I make harmonies and disharmonies" in order to disguise the plain truth. But old Isaiah knew the score: if God created everything, then God created evil in the universe. It's a logical necessity.

Knowing that God created evil, I personally would move on to the root moral underpinnings of the Bible, which are closely related to theodicy (which is the poncy term for what we have been discussing). They are surprising to most Christians.

Forgive me for being abrupt and clumsy in my writing; it's along time since I have felt the call to preach on this forum.

~~ OEJ

Now, you've honestly thrown opinion at me. This is a matter of whether or not the Bible's verses are taken literally. So, you believe that God created evil and suffering, yet you chose to worship a being that is the cause for all our problems? That's very...interesting. So, since you believe God is the root of all evil, what is Satan then?

"Some churches literally rewrite the Bible so that the above passage comes out "I make harmonies and disharmonies" in order to disguise the plain truth." That's odd, because how do you even know your version is worded in the exact way the original was? I mean, a book written before the common era containing loads of mythology and practices that are outdated? The book was banned until the Romans accepted Christianity under the rule of Constantine, you don't think it was ever altered just a wee bit to force people under Christian influence?

I mean, Europe was only dominated by the Catholic church for 900 years until people finally rebelled. You don't think they could have altered the bible to serve themselves?

I agree that God created evil, because obviously if God has omnipotence and evil exists, obviously he made it. That leads back to conditioning. Perhaps the concepts of "good" and "Evil" are only figments of our imagination? Only created to give us a sense of order or purpose? Through out history people's views change. Things that were looked upon as "Evil" a thousand years ago have changed, and things that were looked upon as "good" have changed.

Perhaps we were simply "Created", without the conditioning of having views on "good" and "Evil", and those two ideas simply evolved over time, and they are still evolving as we speak.

It's all a matter of opinon from here.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Okay seriously...

Well, I went for a Godly bit of exercise and that has cleared my brain.

You are right, the definition of evil is a red herring. If it is human behavior then God created humans with the capacity for evil behavior, and it is still God's creation. (Geez. I have made that point so often, how could I have forgotten?)

Likewise, Satan is a creation of God. (Otherwise: Satan created himself in defiance of God, and since God is omnipotent that is not possible.)

So, opinion about the veracity and accuracy of the Bible...

My goal is always, always to understand the true nature of Christianity. For that study I must take the Bible, the Christian holy book, as a root truth. Otherwise one is not studying the nature of Christianity but questioning its existential truthfulness.

Two very different studies.

I take the King James version because it is inspired. But the roots are the same in all versions.

The first act of God was creation, and the second act punishment of man -- expulsion from paradise and the infliction of ageing and mortality on man.

Ow. When my old and disreputable teeth are aching I sure regret that punishment.

The last act of God, prophesied in Revelations, is the punishment (quite horrible this time) of the unrighteous.

So: God's vindictiveness and vengeance is a theme which underpins all of the Christian Bible. Do you think, offhand, that this says something about the nature of Christianity and Christian behavior?

~~ OEJ

[apricot3]

Re: Okay seriously...

This can't be serious.
No way would anyone have views this outrageous.
Plus there are some major inconsistencies coming from some of the more prominent members of the group.
This is ridiculous!

And if it's not, then I am bloody glad that I live in England!

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Okay seriously...

Of course it is serious. What I have written so far is a little inconsistent with mainstream church teachings, but that's because I'm being all Socratic like and trying to work around in a way that will make sense to those outside Christ's loving arms.

I have to go out now, so here are two factoids: America has the highest proportion of self-identified Christians on Earth. And America has the most vindictive and punitive prison system on Earth, measured by the percentage of population incarcerated.

Coincidence?

Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;

To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;

To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Psalm 148:5-9

~~ OEJ