[shadowx]

Re: A mature discussion

Then your really a stupid pagan.

You call me stupid yet you neglect to realise that the word you are looking for is "you're" meaning an abbreviation of "you are" not "your" which suggests ownership.

I will give as good as i get

However, you have a valid point that since a perfect being created other beings (humans) in his own image one would assume that they too would be perfect. Yet christian teachings say that we are not perfect and also that God has given us free will, as a sort of test, to see if we are worthy of his light. So presumably he would not want to puppet the writers into writing the words, rather he would accept our imperfections and allow the writers to digress from the truth to test the faith of his followers. If everyone were guided firmly by the hand of Divine intervention then there would be no purpose in a heaven or a hell, since we all follow the Divine we would all go to heaven, instead christian teachings say we are in a state of being tested and examined and i see no reason why this would change for the writers of the Bible. also it would be a good test to see if a man will blindly accept the story from another man or if he would seek the truth in his own experience. surely a man who seeks ultimate truth via experience is more worthy than one who accepts the ideas given to him by another, corruptible, man.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: A mature discussion

You said that it is illegal for a christian to shoot unarmed muslims, but you didnt say it is wrong.....

Let me try logic again. Maybe you can follow this one:

God commands Christians to follow secular law.

Not following God's commands is sin, and therefore wrong.

It is against secular law to murder Muslims for being Muslim. At present.

So, is it wrong to murder Muslims for being Muslim?

God is allknowing, you dont need to tell him, he already knows. Plus, i think you should offer help if you believe it is the right thing to do. But i do not think it is right for anyone to threaten or indeed harm someone based on their choice of lifestyle.

We haven't threatened or harmed anyone because he's a homer. Our goal is to lead them to Salvation, by any means necessary.

[shadowx]

Re: A mature discussion

in the eyes of GOD. They deserve no respect, only smiting!

I do not have the eyes of God, none of us do, so it would be His right and his alone to smite those he disapproves of and surely by allowing the gays to live God is showing that he is ready to allow them to change their ways and this we too should ignore the homosexuals and allow them the chance to redeem themselves. What use is obedience if it is only to approve another? Surely you want your children to obey you because they know it is the right thing to do? Rather than through fear?

In which case we should allow "sinners" to change themselves, rather than forcing them to do so via threat or harm?

As for being a racist... I wouldnt go that far at all.

While i see your point about not following the law a sin i dont understand that by the law legalising murder on specific groups makes it the right thing to do.

Murder of innocents will always be wrong unless they pose a very real threat to your safety. A muslim going about their worship is not such a threat and so should be treated with respect. Offer them the chance to join your religion and the path you believe to salvation, of course, but at no point should they be under threat to do so from any person.

I also respect that you yourself have not threatened gays but others on this forum have and i feel that is wrong. Dislike gays, fine, hate them, fair enough. Tell them they need saving, if thats what you believe, but threats and harm? No way.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: A mature discussion

I do not have the eyes of God, none of us do, so it would be His right and his alone to smite those he disapproves of and surely by allowing the gays to live God is showing that he is ready to allow them to change their ways and this we too should ignore the homosexuals and allow them the chance to redeem themselves. What use is obedience if it is only to approve another? Surely you want your children to obey you because they know it is the right thing to do? Rather than through fear?

In which case we should allow "sinners" to change themselves, rather than forcing them to do so via threat or harm?

Salvation through any means necessary. Their eternal soul is far more important than their temporary pleasures, whether they see it right now or not.

While i see your point about not following the law a sin i dont understand that by the law legalising murder on specific groups makes it the right thing to do.

Because the Bible instructs us to kill those who refuse to follow God. Once the law is changed, then Islamofascists will be faced with the same threat they make against Christians: Convert, or be summarily executed.

Murder of innocents will always be wrong unless they pose a very real threat to your safety.

There is none innocent except those washed clean of their sins by the blood of Jesus.

There is no such thing as an innocent Muslim, as they are born in original sin and remain in sin. They also blaspheme against Jesus, claiming He was merely a "prophet".

[BelieverInGod]

Re: A mature discussion

I'm just going to pick up a couple of points here as most of this is just empty words.

You may have a psychological need to feel better than me but I will not indulge it.

Personally I do not have a psychological need to feel better than anyone. The thing is that we are going to Heaven and you are going to Hell. It doesn't matter how good of a person you are, or whether or not you respect "mother earth" the fact is if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your own personal Lord and Savior and live by the word of the KJV Bible, you are hell bound.

We are equals and since i believe it is stated within the bible that all men were created equal

That's the US constitution, not the Bible.

Unless of course you feel i have been corrupted through life somehow, or that you have bettered me during the course of your life. Please choose one of the afore mentioned statements to justify your ill founded ideas of superiority.

So because we disagree with you we automatically are superior to you? I'm sensing some real passive-aggressiveness from you.

I do not hate jesus and never said i did. Myself? I am Chris, I am 21 and from England. I have no need or desire to say more.

If you don't love Jesus you hate him. Jesus doesn't give you any other choice.
Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

i understand the concept of the original sin and the fact that since that christianity teaches that all humans are born into sin regardless of family or upbringing.

Yes, but once saved we are sin free and ordered to go and SIN NO MORE.

1st John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

However, you believe that Muslims, me and the old lady are all going to hell, and i imagine you believe you have an obligation to save us (which is fair enough if you believe so) however is there need to stone a muslim lady for no reason other than she is different? As i saw in another thread which i know you didnt post.

Surely if she is already going to hell and she refuses a reasonable attempt at "salvation" there is little need to personally hound, torture, threaten and/or kill her? Surely it would be better to allow God to hand down justice as He sees fit, since he is all knowing and powerful he alone would know precisely what end she should meet and what her destiny should be after death?

Um, excuse me but who is stoning Muslim women to death? Last I heard a Christian would be put in the pit along with the woman.

I am sure muslims feel the same about christians, that since you do not venerate Allah you are sinners and since have no place in the world and there are extremists who seek to rectify that via terrible acts such as 9/11 and i understand the need perfectly to rid the world of extremism. I would agree with any person here who decided to murder another who was planning an act of terrorism. However i cannot, and never will condone the murder or intimidation of innocents.

So how exactly are they better than us? Yes Muslims are taking over the world. We're doing our best to fight against it, but it's very difficult when all of the moderate fuzzy bunny christians are calling us intollerant and telling us we need to love our muzzie brothers. Well you live in England, how much do they love you?

My limits in belief are those of science.

The problem is, is that most science worshipers don't seem to understand that they're taking their science on faith. They read a book and listen to what the 'scientists' say and take it as gospel truth. Well considering how much 'science' has changed in my short life, I can't believe it. God on the other hand never changes.

Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

As for nature religions, what is so wrong about them?

The problem with worshiping nature is that you are ignoring God.

My ears are always open to the truth, but since the bible is written by the hand of man, or in this case, many men, how can it be considered the truth?

Because God used those men. Who typed your post, you or your keyboard?

If god personally preached to me i would accept that truth without one question.

So you expect God to take time out of running the universe because you refuse to accept what he has given you? The problem is I've seen many people where God has performed a miracle in their life, and they will give credit to anything but God.

However i cannot accept the words of another human as being absolute truth.

You accept what scientists say. Have you repeated their studies?

A muslim would say the Qu'ran is the word of Allah and as such is 100% true but you would say this is not the case. If i were stuck in the middle of both of you then who should i believe? Both of you have the same arguments for and against and both of you proclaim to speak the truth of your God but since you are both humans neither of you can be error-free.

Well one thing about Mohammad was that he was visited by an angel and told these things. We are warned in the Bible that Satan himself can appear as an angel of light.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[Sister Charli]

Re: A mature discussion

Good evening, I come here from another site and it is true that i am not a christian.

However... I was dismayed by the replies that another member of my forum received and i was hoping to have a mature discussion here about the way that member was treated.

I dont want to say your ideas and beliefs are invalid. Far from it, nor am i here to advertise any other website, religion, path, cult etc...

Why are you here?

You know full well this is a Christian forum, and that your friend was treated in a manner that you apparently did not approve of.

You say you want to discuss how your friend was treated however it appears to me that your discussion thus far has been in defending your own personal beliefs and nothing to do with the alleged treatment of your so called friend.

Again I ask .... why did Jesus draw you to this site?

Are you feeling a tad insecure in your chosen beliefs? Does God want you to see and hear the truth of the KJV1611 bible? Are you finding that using the eyes of newts and toads legs in your spells a little difficult to source? Are you yet to work out the right directions of the four elements (without owning a GPS) is just silly? Like facing Mecca is.

Are you maybe ready to acknowledge that Jesus is your saviour?

[shadowx]

Re: A mature discussion

in the eyes of GOD. They deserve no respect, only smiting!

I do not have the eyes of God, none of us do, so it would be His right and his alone to smite those he disapproves of and surely by allowing the gays to live God is showing that he is ready to allow them to change their ways and this we too should ignore the homosexuals and allow them the chance to redeem themselves. What use is obedience if it is only to approve another? Surely you want your children to obey you because they know it is the right thing to do? Rather than through fear?

In which case we should allow "sinners" to change themselves, rather than forcing them to do so via threat or harm?

As for being a racist... I wouldnt go that far at all.

While i see your point about not following the law a sin i dont understand that by the law legalising murder on specific groups makes it the right thing to do.

Murder of innocents will always be wrong unless they pose a very real threat to your safety. A muslim going about their worship is not such a threat and so should be treated with respect. Offer them the chance to join your religion and the path you believe to salvation, of course, but at no point should they be under threat to do so from any person.

I also respect that you yourself have not threatened gays but others on this forum have and i feel that is wrong. Dislike gays, fine, hate them, fair enough. Tell them they need saving, if thats what you believe, but threats and harm? No way.

hence my personal belief is that any truth, or religion, should be tested. I also believe that if your God is real he would appreciate the fact that you tested christianity, since it is taught by men and men lie.

[shadowx]

Re: A mature discussion

You say you want to discuss how your friend was treated however it appears to me that your discussion thus far has been in defending your own personal beliefs and nothing to do with the alleged treatment of your so called friend.

The way the other member was treated is directly related to the intolerance that some members here have. Also i havent had a chance to speak other than to defend myself against the tirade of assumptions thrust at me.


Am i insecure of my beliefs? not at all.

does god want me to see the truth? If he exists them im sure he does, however for him to want me to learn this truth from one book written by man i find hard to believe.

If i did use the eyes of newts and toad legs in spells then i am sure i could source them effectively. Either by my own hands of by the many pagan stores on the internet. however, since i respect all living creatures i would not slaughter any animal except for food or materials for my survival or safety, or in the case i fear for my safety or the safety of others.

I agree that the idea of elements and directions is ridiculous, why would any element have a direction? Indeed why would four elements exist? Not to mention it is claimed that the elements are universal and exist everywhere and yet N,S,E,W exist only in the presence of a magnetic field and in relation to a spinning body's equator.

Since these directions are the inventions of man, since they are relative and not absolute it is ludicrous to assume that any element, if they existed, would be aligned with any direction.

This is just one example of where i differ with the many witches you have met in the past and will meet in the future. I am rational. The words of an experienced witch and those of the bible are met with the same doubtful thoughts until i have experienced it or examined it i will consider it all as hearsay.

I am not ready to accept anyone as my saviour since i do not need saving. This is of course a personal opinion and by no means fact, in the same way your beliefs are.

[Nobar King]

Re: A mature discussion

since i respect all living creatures i would not slaughter any animal except for food or materials for my survival or safety, or in the case i fear for my safety or the safety of others.

This doesn't sound like unconditional respect, so why bother stating it? You are no better than a wild animal with instincts to kill or be killed.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: A mature discussion

The way the other member was treated is directly related to the intolerance that some members here have. Also i havent had a chance to speak other than to defend myself against the tirade of assumptions thrust at me.

Again, you miss the point; Christ requires us to be intolerant of Evil. I think you will agree that is a not unreasonable position, after all would you tolerate a child molester, Adolph Hitler or Jimmy Carter? Of course not. Christ ALSO teaches us that the unsaved are utterly evil. Therefore everyone who isn't a TRUE Christian is wrong and their opinion is dangerously evil.

Of course we refused to tolerate your friends views, it was the ethical thing to do.

[WilliamJenningsBryan]

Re: A mature discussion

It occurs to me that shadowx suffers from fuzzy thinking. Ascribing to some pantheistic pagan beliefs that seem to suggest that we should just go about selling fruits and vegetables in a local market, we should just take care of our wife and kids and go about our daily lives being non-judgmental of others. In the same post he then goes on to be judgmental - asserting that if "Allah" told someone to blow themselves up and kill "innocent" people that this is somehow bad (and really doesn't say much about how he knows that).

This all seems to suggest that religion is nothing more than a common sport like baseball - we just pick our favorite team and when the game is finished we just go back to our daily lives.

Get with the winning team son, and if you haven't figured it out it's Jesus.

[landoverlover]

Re: A mature discussion

Friend, you've typed a whole lot of words. Let's be succinct:

To the believer, no 'proof' is necessary.

To the skeptic no 'proof' is enough.

Ask Jesus into your heart. He will come. Your life will be changed forever. That's all the proof you'll ever need.

You have enough knowledge to decide to do this, or not. I will pray you make the right choice.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: A mature discussion

I'm still waiting to hear who this "friend" was, what abuse was suffered, and why the offended individual came to a Christian church forum to rant against Christianity and somehow expected to be given hugs, handshakes, and a mug of fresh coffee instead of being kicked to the curb.

[shadowx]

Re: A mature discussion

I dont know the username by which the member went on this forum.

Thus far on my forum the member hasn't divulged this info.

While i see your point that you take the bible as truth and the bible says that non believers are evil, Jesus still respected the non believers and accepted them if they chose to join him. If they did not join them he didnt slaughter them on the spot.

It occurs to me that shadowx suffers from fuzzy thinking. Ascribing to some pantheistic pagan beliefs that seem to suggest that we should just go about selling fruits and vegetables in a local market, we should just take care of our wife and kids and go about our daily lives being non-judgmental of others. In the same post he then goes on to be judgmental - asserting that if "Allah" told someone to blow themselves up and kill "innocent" people that this is somehow bad (and really doesn't say much about how he knows that).

I assure you my thinking is clear.

I do not ascribe to any pantheistic beliefs. I believe in NO gods, or goddesses. No angels no demons no fairies no goblins. There is nothing there. All that exists are the animals and plants on this earth that we see with our eyes and microscopes and the possibility of ET life. I have no proof of ET life but the statistics do not lie.

I never suggested anyone should sell any product via any particular shop front, cart, stall or website. I merely stated a typical example of the standard muslim country family where the males would go out earning money while the females would tend to homelife. However i do suggest a certain level of non-judgemental behaviour. I am judgemental, everybody is, however i do not seek out groups to judge against purposely nor do i base my opinions on what other people tell me, or tell me to think. I base my opinions on experience and logical thought.

How do i know taking an innocent life is wrong? I do not. I *believe* it to be wrong. And that is an important point. How do you know i am going to hell? you do not. you *believe* i am. You do not know there is a god as you describe, but you *believe* and in many ways belief is more important than knowledge. But it is also subjective.

You are no better than a wild animal with instincts to kill or be killed.

Quite, however i am programmed for survival. In a case of a life or death fight with another creature i have no greater right to survive than it does, except I have decided i want to live. And what i decide, goes. At least in my personal world. Once a situation enters my personal space and time i am the most important thing it needs to worry about. In here i am the rule maker and the enforcer. Each of us lives in this little world. If i invade your house YOU make the rules. YOU decide if or how i leave that building no-one else matters in that situation except you.

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: A mature discussion

Jesus still respected the non believers and accepted them if they chose to join him. If they did not join them he didnt slaughter them on the spot.

No, because He has better things to do and He commands us to kill all those men, women and children for Him!

2nd Chronicles 15:13 "That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."