[Athiest4answers]

Re: Hi

Ok, so let me get this straight. You want to have a discussion as to why you should convert to Christianity but you don't want us to show you scripture about that topic? That would be like me going to a secular science forum, asking them to convince me to believe in something and then telling them not to quote science textbooks.

You can't really have a discussion about how great True Christianity™ is without referring to the Bible.

Anyways, since you posted this in the introduction forum why don't you actually introduce yourself? Let us know your name and why you bothered signing up here if you don't want to talk about the Bible.

Quoting scripture is fine, I was merely listing it as something that has been done consistently as reasons for the insults. And I would like someone to tell me how we know that the KJV is the word of God using something other than the KJV. After all, if I handed you book that had the words in it 'this is the word of god' you wouldn't take it seriously unless it was the KJV. So how do we know that the KJV is the word of God itself?

And alright, my name is Robert. I came here by accident when I was surfing the web. I am a university student studying psychology. I bothered to sign up because some of the things people have been saying here have irked me. I want to understand what you believe and why you believe it. If you are indeed correct about the universe and God,then I would like to know about it so that I can be correct.

[Lost Sheep McUinnean]

Re: Hi

the "straw man" is a logical fallacy in which one person imagines that the person they are talking to is holding a position which is easily shown to be false, immoral, or otherwise indefensible, and proceeds to show that this position, which is not actually held by the person they are speaking with, is wrong.

Using agricultural implements or devices does little to help your attempt to discuss this matter with us as a mature adult.

The circular no-sequitur you've just quoted is as useful as proving anti-matter exists (which it doesn't but that's beside the point), but as you wish.

You see logic is not a goal in itself, nor is it of any use as a tool in Theology, since faith God requires faith and faith requires love and love requires faith in God and not the duracell battery powered choochoo train of the ligician, which of course goes nowhere.

Without faith God would be nothing you say? Well, no, the Great Being Himself is among us and has not been known to disappear in a puff of 'logic'.

Read these:



Romans 1:17For therein is the righteousnesse of God reueiled from FAITH to FAITH: as it is written, The iust shall liue by FAITH.

Romans 4:16Therefore it is of FAITH, that it might bee by grace; to the ende the promise might be sure to all the seede, not to that onely which is of the Law, but to that also which is of the FAITH of Abraham, who is the father of vs all,

1 Timothy 1:19Holding FAITH, and a good conscience, which some hauing put away, concerning FAITH, haue made shipwracke.

James 2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say hee hath FAITH, and haue not workes? can FAITH saue him?

Romans 14:23And hee that doubteth, is damned if hee eate, because hee eateth not of FAITH: For whatsoeuer is not of FAITH, is sinne.

2 Corinthians 1:24Not for that we haue dominion ouer your FAITH, but are helpers of your ioy: for by FAITH ye stand.

Romans 3:30Seeing it is one God which shal iustifie the circumcision by FAITH, and vncircumcision through FAITH.


See? Now you can thank me for 'proving' you wrong.

Have a nice day Spock.

[James Hutchins]

Re: Hi

Quoting scripture is fine, I was merely listing it as something that has been done consistently as reasons for the insults. And I would like someone to tell me how we know that the KJV is the word of God using something other than the KJV. After all, if I handed you book that had the words in it 'this is the word of god' you wouldn't take it seriously unless it was the KJV. So how do we know that the KJV is the word of God itself?

And alright, my name is Robert. I came here by accident when I was surfing the web. I am a university student studying psychology. I bothered to sign up because some of the things people have been saying here have irked me. I want to understand what you believe and why you believe it. If you are indeed correct about the universe and God,then I would like to know about it so that I can be correct.

Now you are being reasonable.
Regarding who wrote the Bible, well, it was not God, His disciples wrote it for Him. It has been accepted by them and billions of people since that it has been approved by God. The same way when you read any book. You have to take it on faith that the author really was the author. If it is supposed to be a true book, you have have trust in the author. This can be had by verifying facts contained in it. This has been done countless times regarding the Bible.

I understand many things in the Bible irk you, some irk me. But I love God and even though I do not like eveything He tells me, I accept it. Same way a child is told to do something by a parent. If you do not like something in the Bible, your problem is not with us, it is with God.

[Lycia The Repentant]

Re: Hi

Quoting scripture is fine, I was merely listing it as something that has been done consistently as reasons for the insults. And I would like someone to tell me how we know that the KJV is the word of God using something other than the KJV. After all, if I handed you book that had the words in it 'this is the word of god' you wouldn't take it seriously unless it was the KJV. So how do we know that the KJV is the word of God itself?

And alright, my name is Robert. I came here by accident when I was surfing the web. I am a university student studying psychology. I bothered to sign up because some of the things people have been saying here have irked me. I want to understand what you believe and why you believe it. If you are indeed correct about the universe and God,then I would like to know about it so that I can be correct.

Ok Rob, now we can get somewhere!

Simply put, we know the KJV is the word of God because it says so itself.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21

We also know that God takes an interest in His work being preserved correctly:

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7

Which is why, when the modern English language was forming right around 1611, He was there to make sure the Bible was translated correctly. Take a look at Mark 3:28 here:

"Treuli Y seie to you, that alle synnes and blasfemyes, bi whiche thei han blasfemed, schulen be foryouun to the sones of men." Mark 3:28 Wycliffe 1382 Bible

"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:" Mark 3:28 KJV Bible

Not only are the spellings different, but the whole verse is subtly changed! God had to be on hand to make sure that the new English words forming had the appropriate context, as opposed to that earlier perversion.

Any questions?

[Athiest4answers]

Re: Hi

As far as what you said James, that's still down to trusting that the human Authors were actually disciples of Jesus, though that only works for the new testament, the Old testament is a little more tricky there since we can trace history back to Moses without the Bible.

As for your assertions Lycia, if I handed you a scientific article and it had the words "this is the word of God" at the top, I'm fairly sure you wouldn't take that seriously as proof that the article actually is the word of God. Just the same, if I told you I'm Jesus returned, I'm pretty sure you'd doubt me on that. Yes, those verses do say that the bible is the word of God, but I need something to tell me that those verses, like all the ones surrounding them, are worth trusting.

Also a question, wouldn't it be better to read the bible in it's original language? I've got a hebrew copy of the old testament, with the oldest copy of the scripture available and I'm almost fluent in the language so I can understand it better.

[Lost Sheep McUinnean]

Re: Hi

Also a question, wouldn't it be better to read the bible in it's original language? I've got a hebrew copy of the old testament, with the oldest copy of the scripture available and I'm almost fluent in the language so I can understand it better.

No.

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: Hi

Also a question, wouldn't it be better to read the bible in it's original language?

No: Seven easy ways to tell the True Bible from the false ones.

[Lycia The Repentant]

Re: Hi

As far as what you said James, that's still down to trusting that the human Authors were actually disciples of Jesus, though that only works for the new testament, the Old testament is a little more tricky there since we can trace history back to Moses without the Bible.

As for your assertions Lycia, if I handed you a scientific article and it had the words "this is the word of God" at the top, I'm fairly sure you wouldn't take that seriously as proof that the article actually is the word of God. Just the same, if I told you I'm Jesus returned, I'm pretty sure you'd doubt me on that. Yes, those verses do say that the bible is the word of God, but I need something to tell me that those verses, like all the ones surrounding them, are worth trusting.

What I assume you're getting at is that trusting the Bible is circular reasoning. I did a short write-up addressing that here. If you need me to go into any further detail please let me know.

Also a question, wouldn't it be better to read the bible in it's original language? I've got a hebrew copy of the old testament, with the oldest copy of the scripture available and I'm almost fluent in the language so I can understand it better.

Goodness, no! God himself didn't care about original documents, why should we when have the divinely inspired KJV? Here's an example of for, from the book of Jeremiah:

"So the king sent Jehudi to fetch the roll: and he took it out of Elishama the scribe's chamber. And Jehudi read it in the ears of the king, and in the ears of all the princes which stood beside the king. Now the king sat in the winterhouse in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him. And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth." Jeremiah 36:21-23

Thus ends the original document.

"Therefore thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost. And I will punish him and his seed and his servants for their iniquity; and I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the evil that I have pronounced against them; but they hearkened not. Then took Jeremiah another roll, and gave it to Baruch the scribe, the son of Neriah; who wrote therein from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire: and there were added besides unto them many like words." Jeremiah 36:30-32

Jeremiah is commanded by the Lord to make a copy of the destroyed original (Which is reproduced in Jeremiah 45-51).

"And Jeremiah said to Seraiah, When thou comest to Babylon, and shalt see, and shalt read all these words; Then shalt thou say, O LORD, thou hast spoken against this place, to cut it off, that none shall remain in it, neither man nor beast, but that it shall be desolate for ever. And it shall be, when thou hast made an end of reading this book, that thou shalt bind a stone to it, and cast it into the midst of Euphrates:" Jeremiah 51:61-63

And here we learn that the copy of the original was destroyed! This, however, begs the question of how it was reproduced for Jeremiah 45-51, and the answer must be that it was reproduced from a copy of the copy. This shows that God does not care if the document is the original document, so long as his Word isn't corrupted. Now, this leads us to question if a translation can be inherently better than the original, and scripture supports that it can! The term "translation" appears in three areas of the Bible:

"And Saul had a concubine, whose name was Rizpah, the daughter of Aiah: and Ishbosheth said to Abner, Wherefore hast thou gone in unto my father's concubine? Then was Abner very wroth for the words of Ishbosheth, and said, Am I a dog's head, which against Judah do shew kindness this day unto the house of Saul thy father, to his brethren, and to his friends, and have not delivered thee into the hand of David, that thou chargest me to day with a fault concerning this woman? So do God to Abner, and more also, except, as the LORD hath sworn to David, even so I do to him; To translate the kingdom from the house of Saul, and to set up the throne of David over Israel and over Judah, from Dan even to Beersheba." 2 Samuel 3:7-10

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:" Colossians 1:13

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." Hebrews 11:5

In all of the three verses that the term "translation" appears, it is used in a totally positive context, which means the Bible supports the idea that a translation can be inherently better than an original.

[Athiest4answers]

Re: Hi

I give up, ya'll have fun with your hate, I'm gonna go save a few lives...

[Lost Sheep McUinnean]

Re: Hi

I give up, ya'll have fun with your hate, I'm gonna go save a few lives...

I find your lack of faith disappointing.

I also find disappointing your failure to grasp/understand Sister Lycia's fine completion of what you sought - the answer to your original question.

She's answered it for you. You as a logician should at least TRY to grasp it.

Or would you just prefer a simple answer like 42?

Goodbye.

YIC, McUinnean, obviously not of your Ilk.

[Lycia The Repentant]

Re: Hi

I also find disappointing your failure to grasp/understand Sister Lycia's fine completion of what you sought - the answer to your original question.

She's answered it for you. You as a logician should at least TRY to grasp it.

Or would you just prefer a simple answer like 42?

Honestly, I don't know why I even bother to try to answer their questions anymore. Its not like they ever thank me for taking the time to do so and instead they just get all huffy and leave.

[Lost Sheep McUinnean]

Re: Hi

Honestly, I don't know why I even bother to try to answer their questions anymore. Its not like they ever thank me for taking the time to do so and instead they just get all huffy and leave.

It's just your good nature Lycia. You ooze goodness and want to help. Not literally ooze as in slimy I mean, but spiritually I mean.

Have faith Lycia, your eloquence will win over more repenters, believe me. The Kingdome of Hevene will thank you for it.

He was probably a sodomite anyway.

[Cindy Lou Jenkins]

Re: Hi

I give up, ya'll have fun with your hate, I'm gonna go save a few lives...

Who are you to save lives? God is in charge of deciding who lives and who dies. Why do you want to interfere with God's work?


Exodus 15:26 (King James Version) 26And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.


Deuteronomy 7:15 (King James Version) 15And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.


Psalm 103:1-5 (King James Version) 1Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. 2Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: 3Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; 4Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; 5Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.


Psalm 103:2-3 (King James Version) 2Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: 3Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;


Psalm 107:19-20 (King James Version) 19Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses. 20He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.


Psalm 147:3 (King James Version) 3He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds.


Proverbs 3:7-8 (King James Version) 7Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. 8It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.


Isaiah 19:22 (King James Version) 22And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.


Isaiah 53:5 (King James Version) 5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


Isaiah 57:17-18 (King James Version) 17For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. 18I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.


Jeremiah 30:12-14, 17 12For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous. 13There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines. 14All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.17For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.


Malachi 4:2 (King James Version) 2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

(Billy Bob: I approve this post.)

[Phebe Carlyle]

Re: Hi

Mr Atheist,

It's obvious you came in here with the pre-conceived notion that God does not exist.

As such, perhaps it should be asked; why DON'T you believe in God? What argument was put forth to you to enable you to make that decision?

I look forward to your reply.

YIC
Phebe Carlyle.

[James Hutchins]

Re: Hi

Sad to say, but typical.

This guy came on here with a bee in his bonnet before he even asked a question. Then when he got the answers (irrefutable ones at that) he immediately called us 'haters'.
Why is it when these people lose the discussion (and they always will if they hate baby Jesus) they insult us instead of admitting they were wrong, apologizing for their bad attitude and asking forgiveness for their sins.