[Levi Jones]

Re: Translation please

Brother Levi or Rev Rodimer, could you please tell me:
What is /b/?

If you don't know, you are lucky.

What in the world is a proxy war?

Something evil horrible people threaten to do, because they think we we are stupid or can't defend ourselves.

[iThink]

Re: Translation please

Levi is absolutely right Ruth. A "heathen" like me should know it. /b/ is /b/ad Jesus will be very sad if you google it.

Also, I would like to be told what my lie was...I don't recall doing such a thing.

Anyways, back to the other points.
Rev. Rodimer: Your argument VERY clearly points out that it is you in fact who does not believe that God is all-powerful, or in the very least that you yourself are in fact smarter than God and better equipped to do His job than He is! Unless you can point to a verse in the Bible that says (not implies, but explicitly says), "I am the Lord your God and if there is ever a mistake in translation or a mistake of any kind in copies of My Scriptures from here until the end of time, I will fix said errors."
You see, God says no such thing, He makes no such promise, and by stating as a fact that if God *could* change it He *would* you are saying that there is no possible way in all of Gods *infinite* wisdom (which as far as I know no human possess) He could not possibly have a plan for it. You see what you just used was the precise argument that many atheists use to try and disprove God. Their version goes like this.

If God is all powerful then He *can* stop evil
If God is good then he *will* stop evil
Because evil exists, God is either not all-powerful, evil, or does not exist.
(do you see the similarities)
The proper response to this argument is the same as the response that I gave you. Yes God *can* do it, but how can we as *finite* humans say that He *will* that is His decision to make with His *infinite* wisdom. By saying that God will do something of that nature is to put God in a box, and we don't want to do that now do we?

Levi: I do not see that quote of you from anywhere else in the thread, it must have skipped my eye. I do not mean to shy away from any subject, I apologize.
Of course I believe Paul, who am I to pick an choose from the teachings of the Bible. I may not particularly like some parts of it, such as the part where I must be humble, or the part where I cannot have extra-marital sex, or the part where it says that God predestines people to heaven or hell according to His will. No that isn't your Sunday School picture of a happy God, but it is accurate.

And for the Mr. Apologist statement. Thank you I really do try. But then again, shouldn't we all?
Like 1 Peter 3:15 says, "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear"
To be an Apologist is what we should all strive for. To give a reason for the hope that is within us.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Translation please

Rev. Rodimer: Your argument VERY clearly points out that it is you in fact who does not believe that God is all-powerful, or in the very least that you yourself are in fact smarter than God and better equipped to do His job than He is! Unless you can point to a verse in the Bible that says (not implies, but explicitly says), "I am the Lord your God and if there is ever a mistake in translation or a mistake of any kind in copies of My Scriptures from here until the end of time, I will fix said errors."

If I'm reading this correctly, you believe God is so weak that He can't even control what He wants us to know about the one thing He cares about most, our salvation?

God can make 2+2 always equal 4, but His word is sometimes wrong? It's just the work of man?

Psalm 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

[iThink]

Re: Translation please

That is like saying, "you believe our Lord is so weak He couldn't even keep Adam and Eve from sinning?" Of course God can do it, but how is it our place to say that He will? Who are we to boss God around?

[Levi Jones]

Re: Translation please

Of course I believe Paul, who am I to pick an choose from the teachings of the Bible. I may not particularly like some parts of it, such as the part where I must be humble, or the part where I cannot have extra-marital sex, or the part where it says that God predestines people to heaven or hell according to His will. No that isn't your Sunday School picture of a happy God, but it is accurate.

That's good to know. Paul teaches predestination and there's nothing we can do to get to heaven. God even robs people of their free will to prove a point to the people He loves better than others.

Now, let's talk about Jesus. Jesus says that we will be judged by what we have done.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 12:36-37 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Now, let's see what the Revelation of John says.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be

It all makes sense, right?

And for the Mr. Apologist statement. Thank you I really do try. But then again, shouldn't we all?
Like 1 Peter 3:15 says, "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear"
To be an Apologist is what we should all strive for. To give a reason for the hope that is within us.

That's nice. I like to think of myself as a Bible scholar myself.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Sit down and read the Bible from cover to cover again.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Translation please

That is like saying, "you believe our Lord is so weak He couldn't even keep Adam and Eve from sinning?" Of course God can do it, but how is it our place to say that He will? Who are we to boss God around?

What you are saying is akin to asking, "Why doesn't the year change from 365 1/4 days a year to 600 days a year?" If God can control all of creation and the laws of the universe, how could His Word to man be flawed?

It makes no sense what you are arguing and it's bordering on blasphemy!

[iThink]

Re: Translation please

I am not entirely certain how any of those except for the John verse actually prove for you in this specific situation.

And even with the John verse, only those of us who have submitted to Jesus and are covered by His Blood will be seen as "having done good" because what God will see is not our sinful human selves, but rather He will see Jesus is Son standing as the propitiation of our sins. It is not by how many good deeds we have done (which I know we can all agree on based off of Ephesians 2:8 and Titus 3:5) it is whether the goodness of Christ Himself stand in our place under the judgment of God.

[iThink]

Re: Translation please

I'm sorry i don't understand your analogy relating to my previous post. Gods Word is perfect, so long as it is transcribed, translated, and printed correctly. Are you aware that in the 1631 version of the King James Version left out the word "not" in the 7th commandment so that it read, "Thou shalt commit adultery"?

You see, just because God has the power do something that we as humans feel like he ought to do does not mean that He will do it. His wisdom is far beyond ours and His plan will always be better than ours.

And I do see that you are a Bible scholar. That is a good thing As iron sharpens iron right? This is good stuff.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Translation please

I am not entirely certain how any of those except for the John verse actually prove for you in this specific situation.

It's hard to understand you when you don't use the quote button. I assume you are talking about these?

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 12:36-37 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Now, let's see what the Revelation of John says.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be

Well, golly. I suppose you could be confused by Matthew 16:27 where Jesus says that people will be judged by their works.

Matthew 12:47-50 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Don't you know the parable of the sheep and goats? It's all about works.

I'm guessing you have read the Epistle of James as well.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Translation please

I'm sorry i don't understand your analogy relating to my previous post. Gods Word is perfect, so long as it is transcribed, translated, and printed correctly. Are you aware that in the 1631 version of the King James Version left out the word "not" in the 7th commandment so that it read, "Thou shalt commit adultery"?

You see, just because God has the power do something that we as humans feel like he ought to do does not mean that He will do it. His wisdom is far beyond ours and His plan will always be better than ours.

Therein lies the problem. At what point do we quit taking the Word literally?

Are we to praise Abraham for almost sacrificing his son or should we think that's messed up? The New Testament says that we should sacrifice our own child if God says so.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Would you do it? Do you have enough faith? Are your works strong enough?

[iThink]

Re: Translation please

Ok haha our series of double posts have finally come together, so we can get back to alternating posts (its much easier don't you agree)

Where we are now is salvation by faith vs salvation by works. Am I right?
Which one is it? How do you reconcile the James verse?

The answer is simply this. Faith saves us. Faith alone saves us (Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.")


That is the simple answer without looking into the verses that seem to elevate works. You see, just like many Bible verses you have to read the proceeding verses and chapters to gain an understanding of what the writer is talking about. James 2:20 and following is a great example. In order to understand what James is talking about here we must first go back to James 2:14
However in favor of brevity on the forum i will only post James 2 17-18 as they illustrate the context well enough:


"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."


You see, what James is talking about here is the false belief that one can have faith without showing works. Some people will say, "Oh I believe in God, so I am saved." but their life will not change. James is saying that the separation of faith in Christ and good works for Christ are inseparable. When one has faith and is filled with the Holy Spirit, it is *inevitable* that they will change. Hence John 13:35:


"By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."


James is not saying that the works save you, as we have seen that that would contradict both specific verses AND the scope of the Bible taken as a whole, all he is saying that 100% of the time, faith in Jesus Christ will produce good works.


So in regard to your questins.
1) Would I do it? Probably not, Abraham was a better man than I.
2) Do I have enough faith? For salvation, yes, to live my life the best I can for Christ? Yes.
3) Are my works strong enough? ABSOLUTELY NOT! My works were not strong enough from the very moment at which I first sinned (before then actually because of the sin of Adam) I had already shown myself unworthy of Heaven.


And your other question, yes. What Abraham did was an amazing act of faith. As I said, who am I to question an infinite God's wisdom? He is infinitely smarter than me and should be trusted.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Translation please

Also, I would like to be told what my lie was...I don't recall doing such a thing.

This forum requires that you be over 18 to register. You entered a false birthdate.

Anyways, back to the other points.
Rev. Rodimer: Your argument VERY clearly points out that it is you in fact who does not believe that God is all-powerful, or in the very least that you yourself are in fact smarter than God and better equipped to do His job than He is! Unless you can point to a verse in the Bible that says (not implies, but explicitly says), "I am the Lord your God and if there is ever a mistake in translation or a mistake of any kind in copies of My Scriptures from here until the end of time, I will fix said errors."
You see, God says no such thing, He makes no such promise,

Maybe you should read the Bible before telling us what it says, genius.

Psalm 12:6-7

6The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

See also Mark 13:31 for the words of Jesus Himself on the matter.

As to your "argument" -- since you will doubtless not believe Jesus' own words -- that is why I gave you the option of God not caring that people are being misled by the Bible and damned to Hell as a result of God's wilful inaction.

Reading comprehension. Work on it, genius.

If God is all powerful then He *can* stop evil
If God is good then he *will* stop evil
Because evil exists, God is either not all-powerful, evil, or does not exist.
(do you see the similarities)
The proper response to this argument is the same as the response that I gave you.

No, the proper response to this argument is to read your Bible.

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

There is no "problem of evil," Epicurus. Evil comes from God. God makes it clear in the Bible in many places that ALL things come from Him -- good AND evil, peace AND war, and that He loves AND hates.

God is omniscient and omnipotent. He is not omnibenevolent; that is neither stated nor implied in the Bible, and in fact is clearly contradicted in many places.

[iThink]

Re: Translation please

Well, i'm still waiting for my last post to be approved, but luckily your post doesn't is not directly related, so I will continue.

1) I am in fact over 18 (as I have stated I attend a university) so i must be older than 18 right? You have no reason to doubt me there.

2) God's Word has not passed away by any stretch of the imagination! However, that does not mean that each and every version of the Bible released after that date is a perfect translation. If that is indeed what it means then the Bible lies when it comes to those verses. Because like I said, the 1631 KJV Bible commanded everyone to commit adultery, which is not in accordance with your interpretation of those passages.

God's Word only applies to the Bibles that we have today insofar as they are translated and interpreted perfectly. There are always discrepancies when translating (especially to English as it has many less tenses than Arabic and Greek). Those are the *facts* and if your interpretation of Scripture doesn't lead to that then you are missing something.

3) There is no problem of evil...which is what I demonstrated in my previous post. There is a perceived problem of evil that many people point to. But when looked at it both logically and Scripturally it simply does not exist. I was merely pointing out that the logic you used to prove that there were no mistakes in the Bible uses the EXACT same reasoning as the "Problem of Evil" argument. And is thus defeated in the exact same way.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Translation please

Ok haha our series of double posts have finally come together, so we can get back to alternating posts (its much easier don't you agree)

Where we are now is salvation by faith vs salvation by works. Am I right?
Which one is it? How do you reconcile the James verse?

Martin Luther said he would give his doctor's hat to anyone who truly could. He freaked out and moved James to the back of the Bible to show his displeasure. I doubt you have it all figured out either, kid.

The answer is simply this. Faith saves us. Faith alone saves us (Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.")

Again...

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 25:31-46 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

That is the simple answer without looking into the verses that seem to elevate works. You see, just like many Bible verses you have to read the proceeding verses and chapters to gain an understanding of what the writer is talking about.

Thank you for admitting you don't read what other people post. Thank you for admitting to not actually reading the Word of God.

You are trying to dodge what is staring you straight in the face and starting the mental calisthenics and stringing nonsensical words together in an effort to seem like you are doing something other than ducking it.

Jesus preached works. Plain and simple. Twist James all you want, but Paul did not like him or Peter.

Galatians 2:9-12 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

James is in Paul's face calling him out. Haven't you read the Apostolic Decree from Acts 15:29 or James leading the Christian faction in the Temple in Acts 21?

1) Would I do it? Probably not, Abraham was a better man than I.

Are you some sort of weak Christian? If God tells you to kill your child, you do it. Do you think God cares about your blood relatives?

Luke 14:26-27 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

2) Do I have enough faith? For salvation, yes, to live my life the best I can for Christ? Yes.

Obviously you don't!

Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

When was the last time you drank poison and handled snakes?

3) Are my works strong enough? ABSOLUTELY NOT! My works were not strong enough from the very moment at which I first sinned (before then actually because of the sin of Adam) I had already shown myself unworthy of Heaven.

Again, you are weak. You should walk in all commandments like Zacharias and Abia did.

Luke 1:5 THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

And your other question, yes. What Abraham did was an amazing act of faith. As I said, who am I to question an infinite God's wisdom? He is infinitely smarter than me and should be trusted.

Exactly, whatever the Spirit leads you to do should be done without question even if it is infanticide. I'm so glad we could come to this consensus!

[iThink]

Re: Translation please

As far as having it "all figured out" every last one of these topics that we are talking about has been beaten over the brow for much longer than our lifetimes. Nobody has it "all figured out" not you, not me, not Martin Luther. But that does not mean we should not give it our best shot. Until I am convinced of a better understanding of those verses (It has happened before, it can happen again) then I will consider what I said to be true.

It doesn't particularly matter who liked who in my opinion. If we MUST have works for salvation, then how do you explain the thief on the cross? The one who, "Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43)? Surely this criminal who had lived his life in a manner so as to be crucified had not done "enough" good works!

Which brings up an interesting point...if salvation is by works, then how are we to know when we are saved? At what point in our life does the Holy Spirit enter us? When we reach a "critical mass" of good deeds?

Anyways, that leaves us only one option, that the thief was saved through faith as he had no chance to do large amounts of good deeds while on the cross.
Jesus preached this, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." in John 14:6. No one comes to the Father but through Him. Not through doing good things like Him, but through Him.

Faith yielding good works is a concept that is well backed throughout Scripture by Christ calling Christians to a higher standard with verses like Matthew 5:14, "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid." and just generally calling Christians to be morally pure. Again Ephesians 2:8-9 are very clear, and if we assume that works are melded with faith then Matthew 25 still holds true.

1) I am, and will always be a weak Christian. The moment that I start thinking I have it all figured out and that I am in good shape, I will stop growing. I can always learn more and grow closer to God. I never claimed to be a starling example of Christ. However that does not yield my argument invalid. Attacking me gets you nowhere.

2) If you are basing your observation that I obviously don't off of Mark 16...then I would consider taking a good look at the history of those verses. To be perfectly honest they don't belong in the Bible at all. The earliest and most reliable manuscripts of Matthew do not include these verses at all. Why they are still in is beyond me. You will also notice the very clunky and awkward transition between verses 8 and 9 and it is highly likely that Mark did not write them at all. There are several Greek words that exist nowhere else in the Gospel of Mark that he suddenly begins to use.

3) Again, yes, I am weak. That is a given. I am not called to perfection, only to give it my best shot.