[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

That’s not a contradiction. This is a contradiction:

1 Samuel 28:6: And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not.

1 Chronicles 10:13-14: So Saul ... inquired not of the Lord: wherefore he slew him.

No, that^ is what's known as twisting scripture and quoting it out of context.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.
And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night:
And he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
1 Samuel 28:6-8

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD,
Which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.
1 Chronicles 10:13-14

Instead of accepting the fact that God didn't want to talk to him, Saul turned to a witch and inquired of her instead (of enquiring God)
And so God killed him.

There is no contradiction whatsoever there.
As always, the contradiction is with the unsaved person (you), not the Bible.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

SKG: "Would you like me to explain you to them?"

It doesn't really matter. I've made 13 posts and I think most of them had both sober opinion and hairy-eyeballed preachments in them, so the gist should be coming pretty clear. Jack is still in beta on that forum, though.

Many people don't think about writing on a forum as writing -- that is, they don't consciously think that once you put words onto the screen you are unavoidably creating a fictional character. Jack is slightly out of the norm because he is aware that he is a fictional character, and that gives him some latitude for entertaining antics that someone trying to write "as himself" may not think of using.

I don't know that I'll mess with the UU section of the forum much. My concern is much more with the righteous absolutist and dominionist nature of Christianity, and with denouncing the hideous specter of a rational atheist morality.

For that matter, I may not post much more on Beliefnet. I really don't need to spend more time online right now...

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Galatians 6:7

~~ OEJ

[Ahimaaz Smith]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

You seem awfully preoccupied with homosexuals for someone who claims not to be one. Is your faith so weak that you aren't willing to listen to what gay and lesbian persons have to say?

We really don't need to be lectured on homosexuality by a "minister" from a church whose symbol is a flaming chalice. Moreover, Brother Joshua served his country and all Christiandom faithfully and courageously in a time of war. You have tried (but failed) to pervert a noble and selfless life of service into a derision.

I agree, you are no minister of God. You are a minister of Fraud.

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Well, I don't do heroin, so I don't have to turn away from it. That IS the kind of thing -- comfort, peace, joy -- you're talking about, right?

I have worked with drug addicts. It is a horrible thing, something that nobody should go through, something that ruins families and lives. It does not bring peace or joy or comfort to anyone except maybe to the drug dealers. And no, I'm not a Marxist (though many of my parishoners are, and they are fine, upstanding, caring people), so I don't believe that religion is the opiate of the masses.

creativity, honest thought, that kind of thing? I haven't seen much of that when I've posted on religious forums of any stripe. Except here at Landover Baptist.

Cool. Let's test your creativity. Landoverites claim that persons of Sub-Saharan African descent are the descendents of Canaan, thus subject to the curse of Noah, which they beleve justifies black slavery. What is the Biblical or archaeological evidence that African-Americans are in fact Canaanites? It's pretty important to get this resolved now. Once Joshua figures out that every time he says sodomite, I'm going to say that he is gay (which probably hits a little too close to home), he will no doubt switch to the topic of negroes.

If we get Africans out of the way, then I'll only need to show you the places where God favored the Jews, who serve as Landover distraction from real debate number (10).

As for discussing your beliefs here...I think you're just chicken. Granted, here you are in a lion's den; still, I walked into YOUR lion's den without much fear and trembling and started posting on various topics.

Excellent, so you won't need me to discuss them here. If I want to learn about your beliefs, I hardly think that posting a Landover thread on a Unitarian board is going to help--that mountain just isn't going to move to Mohammed, so he needs to get his ass in gear if he wants to reach the summit (OK, no mountain ever did move for Mohammed, but that's a topic for discussion on a Muslim board).

A lion's den of Unitarians--does that even work? We're more like a flock of doves.

I think you must mean that Satan planted messages. Past tense.

I'm glad to see that you agree that Satan was involved.

It appears to be an ongoing process, since it happened both in the original Hebrew text (maybe Solomon wrote those proverbs after he turned away from the Lord) and in the KJV1611.

Surely the translators of the KVJ1611 would have redacted any errors, the way they corrected 2 Samuel 21:19 from "Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath the Gittite" to "Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite" (since David had already slain Goliath the Gittite, it seems unlikely that Elhanan did, too). Every time you see words in the KJV italicized, you know that they were hard at work correcting errors and omissions in the original text. That's your guarantee that you're getting a Real Salvation™.

You might be right that it is just a matter of history now, but I'm going to play it safe and assume that Satan is still at work.

But of course it's more likely that Satan copied God's scripture into the Vedas.

I'm not sure if your radar picked this up, but those were not quotes from Chopra. What makes you think they were quotes from Chopra or the Hindu scriptures?

It doesn't concern a True Christian much, you see, because we know what God's word is -- it's the Bible.

Then, apparently, what True Christians know and what their faith tells them are two completely separate things.

I am woeful. I think that the folks over at SuperstitionNet don't know what to make of me.

Would you like me to explain you to them?

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

SKG: "Is it irrational to turn away from something that brings you comfort and peace and fellowship and joy..."

Well, I don't do heroin, so I don't have to turn away from it. That IS the kind of thing -- comfort, peace, joy -- you're talking about, right?

Or are you talking about the intellectual life -- that is, creativity, honest thought, that kind of thing? I haven't seen much of that when I've posted on religious forums of any stripe. Except here at Landover Baptist. God I love this church.

As for discussing your beliefs here...I think you're just chicken. Granted, here you are in a lion's den; still, I walked into YOUR lion's den without much fear and trembling and started posting on various topics. Maybe when you get as old, mean, and smelly as I am you will not be so timid.

~~ OEJ

Postscript: "I uncovered the fact that Satan is planting messages in the Bible."

*shrugs* I think you must mean that Satan planted messages. Past tense. But of course it's more likely that Satan copied God's scripture into the Vedas. It doesn't concern a True Christian much, you see, because we know what God's word is -- it's the Bible. And we know Satan hain't tampered with it none, because God says it is His word. And therefore, by definition, not Satan's. Nu? Kapiche?

Postscript 2: I am woeful. I think that the folks over at SuperstitionNet don't know what to make of me. I posted in the Welcome forum first, and have yet to receive my cyber-hug from the welcoming committee. Ah.

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

So what is your point? Merely that some pagan superstitions mimic the Bible? That's pretty weak beer.

I uncovered the fact that Satan is planting messages in the Bible. This is the greatest theological discovery so far in the 21st Century. We'll probably see a Discovery Channel special on this any day now. Not weak beer at all, it's a fine, aged, single-malt Scotch whisky.

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

From what I saw on the forum he linked, Brother Ahimaaz, you have hit that one square on the head. Egads. I have seldom seen such maundering mush-brainery... It's delusion-enabling for mental 12-year-olds.

Three words: Enigmatic Harpo Marx.

I see you are not registered on SuperstitionNet as StarrKingGrad. Humpf. I was going to seek you out and say hello.

I thank you for the kindness, but you don’t need to go out of your way to greet me. You can say hello to me right here.

I always thought that Unitarians were all dwarfs that had nothing better to do on Sunday mornings.

There are several little people families in my congregation. They are wonderful human beings, and I am far richer for having known them.

People do perceive contradictions in The Bible because they are not willing to think the scripture threw. Take the flood story in Genesis were it says Noah took two of everykind in one verse and seven of every clean animals in another. Most people ignore the "clean animal" and see contradiction.

That’s not a contradiction. This is a contradiction:

1 Samuel 28:6: And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not.

1 Chronicles 10:13-14: So Saul ... inquired not of the Lord: wherefore he slew him.

…we were told it was too dangerous for a Christian to go into Berkeley. That the communists had completely taken the town over and Christians were attacked on site. I hope you don't have to live in hiding.

It’s not like the glory days, when the people took over People’s Park, but it is a wonderful, friendly, and diverse community. Truly Heaven on Earth. Most of my parishioners are Christians, just as I am.

Did you Unitarian Unicyclists learn to make fun of the mentally challenged at Starr King or is that a habit you learned on your own?

I made a special exception for you.

He still hasn't addressed the fact that Unitarians allow sodomites to preach...

You seem awfully preoccupied with homosexuals for someone who claims not to be one. Is your faith so weak that you aren't willing to listen to what gay and lesbian persons have to say?

Odd...you did not answer the "atheist's" questions about the UU "Spirit of Life".

Egads. It’s not odd at all. I started this thread to learn your perspectives on the Bible. If you want to discuss Unitarian Universalism, I encourage you to go to a forum where you can get multiple perspectives. We have no set creed or dogma, just a quest for truth and meaning, guided by our Seven Principles, so no one Unitarian can give your athiest an adequate answer. Perhaps he should go to a Unitarian service and discuss his issues with the many atheists whom we have embraced into our community.

You are familiar, I suppose, with that blasphemous work Letter to a Christian Nation, by Sam Harris? Mister Harris' prime problem is that his prose exposition is exciting as oatmeal. But after slandering Our Lord most horribly, his point -- that religion is abrogation of rationality -- must be taken as an indictment as much of Unitarian Universalism as of Islamic fundamentalism.

I tried to read it but gave up in the second chapter, so I really couldn’t say whether it was blasphemous. Oatmeal, indeed (see, one more thing upon which we agree). I have a few responses:

There are things we can all learn from the fundamentalist of any religion, including Islam, without buying into the violence or cruelty.

If Harris implied that Unitarians are anti-science, nothing that I believe in any way contradicts any scientific discovery of which I am aware. God gave us brains for a reason, and I choose not to close mine.

I do not equate spirituality with irrationality any more than you do. Is it irrational to turn away from something that brings you comfort and peace and fellowship and joy? Unitarianism works for me and for my parishioners. We need no other justification for our faith. If that means Sam Harris thinks we are irrational, then so be it.

How many Mexicans live north of Berkeley?

El Cerrito and Richmond both have large Mexican populations. The Bay Area has been enriched with persons from a broad array of cultures around the world. It is a real blessing.

I was born in Scotland to God fearing Anglo Saxon English parents and have lived in Wales. I know Brighton Cardiff Bristol London Surrey Croyden Liverpool and Cornwall quite well.

Are we having a discussion, or compiling an atlas?

Apparently, if we are to judge by Joshua’s comments, the latter.

Ah, dodging a Pastor's query yet again, and complaing that 8 pm is late.

What question and which pastor?

Seems to me that you have come out of left field and attacked me for sodomy when that is an action I find reprehensible.

After I explained that it was intended ironically, you still don’t get it? Are you really that dense? Here it is in slow motion: Standard operating procedure at Landover is to turn any serious discussion into a Jeremiad against homosexuality. I found this tiresome, so I tried decided to show you how annoying and unproductive it is. See Matthew 26:52 for a fuller explanation of the concept. If you still can’t follow this, try asking one of the smart kids in the class to explain it to you.

I have mocked your obvious lack of knowledge concerning the Bible….

Without actually bothering to quote the Bible yourself. Quite an accomplishment. Still, I get it, you are just joshing. Maybe I am, too.

I doubt you are a minister, unitarian or otherwise. Are you?

No, I am just someone who thinks that other guys will dig me if I walk around wearing the full dress uniform of a Royal Engineer.

By having a self-important so called minster re-labeling them as Hindu philosophy knowing perfectly well we have no interest in that kind of stuff.

You’re right, I do know perfectly well that you have no interest in the positive messages in the Bible.

Nice sleazy cheep shot.

Thank you. I like to throw a spiritual change-up every now and then. I’ve found that seeing their basic values from a different perspective helps people refine their beliefs.

Now is there any real point to this discussion beyond attacking our beliefs?

Well, there are the fascinating discussions of Joshua's ambiguous sexuality and the GPS coordinates of Brighton, England.

if this is going to degenerate into a bunch cheep shots and name calling then phooy on you

We crossed that bridge right around post #2 in this thread.

If you even take some of the Bible to heart and one takes it all or nothing...then you have to explain to me why you embrace a "faith" that allows sodomites to preach and marry each other.

I don’t claim that one needs to take all of the Bible or none of it, so there is nothing to explain.

If I wanted to live my life based on a thousand different doctrines...I'd just buy a book called "I'm okay, you're okay"

OK. But I’m pretty sure that you already own a book that preaches many irreconcilable doctrines, even though you don’t bother to read it.

[Brother McGregor]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

what is your name at that forum? And why do you make such outlandish claims on our persons? We know your "faith" to be nothing more that the gutteral barlinnie of the uneducated mobs of pseudo Christians. No one has attacked you at all...we find your "faith" questionable and we will attack it as a fake and false doctrine.

If you even take some of the Bible to heart and one takes it all or nothing...then you have to explain to me why you embrace a "faith" that allows sodomites to preach and marry each other. If I wanted to live my life based on a thousand different doctrines...I'd just buy a book called "I'm okay, you're okay" and saved the money it took for divinity courses or whatever it is you 'units' take to become whatever it is you become.
Are you a sodomite, star?

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

I see you are not registered on SuperstitionNet as StarrKingGrad. Humpf. I was going to seek you out and say hello.

The words of the Christian Bible, King James version, are God's words. The words of the Vedas, of the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Koran, the Fish-Butchering Manual of Malaysia, and the Aztec Codecs are not the Words of God.

So what is your point? Merely that some pagan superstitions mimic the Bible? That's pretty weak beer.

Over on SuperstitionNet somebody named cinthia_29 posted that mankind had sex with "angles."

I interpret this in a Lovecraftian sense -- the Hounds of Tindalos, as we recall, come always from the angles...the very angles of time. Therefore, I think perhaps that cinthia_29 meant that Cthulhu or some similar of the Elder Gods did the dirty with Eve back when the world was green and every pomegranate might have been a forbidden fruit.

Blasphemy, of course.

You never know what superstitious crackpots are going to come up with next. They certainly aren't good solid Christians with their heads screwed on tight, like us Landover Baptists.

~~ OEJ

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

How do you suppose Satan managed to set a trap right in the middle of the Book of Proverbs?

By having a self-important so called minster re-labeling them as Hindu philosophy knowing perfectly well we have no interest in that kind of stuff.

Nice sleazy cheep shot.

Now is there any real point to this discussion beyond attacking our beliefs? I mean I have done my best to have an intelligent conversation and explain my position but if this is going to degenerate into a bunch cheep shots and name calling then phooy on you.

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

While, yes, these quotes from that Hindu do sound virtuous my faith tells me they are a trap set by Satan.

How do you suppose Satan managed to set a trap right in the middle of the Book of Proverbs?

Proverbs 6:19
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Proverbs 19:17
He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.

Proverbs 25:11
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.

Proverbs 27:9
Ointment and perfume rejoice the heart: so doth the sweetness of a man's friend by hearty counsel.

Proverbs 31:10, 26
Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies....She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

That's what I mean when I say that Landover focuses on the negative messages in the Bible. Outside Pastor Billy-Reuben, you guys don't seem to be too familiar with the rest.

[JennyD]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Berkeley. You kidding me, when I did my missionary work in San Fransisco we were told it was too dangerous for a Christian to go into Berkeley. That the communists had completely taken the town over and Christians were attacked on site. I hope you don't have to live in hiding.

Brother Bobby-Joe, we have already determined that he's a Unitarian Universalist, which are anti-Christian. He is probably paraded down the streets of Berzerkeley on a regular basis as an example of how one should deny God.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Hello, StarrKingGrad. Miguel_de_Servet on the SuperstitionNet forum just posted this about me:

"Being one-eyed is probably the cause of Your One-eyed Honor's one-sidedness."

Obviously he knows nothing of the significance of the Jack of Hearts and the Jack of Spades. I'm afraid I am not impressed with the forum as yet.

And they are not much impressed with me, but that is a given -- I am not a gentleman. ("I am not any kind of a gentleman.") Ken wrote, of my preaching, that

"It would not apply to any denomination (such as the Church of England) that has decided that God is too much of a gentleman to require another gentleman to ruin his trousers."

I like that comment a lot.

Now stand up for yourself, boy. Defend your faith: why is it anything but superstition?

~~ OEJ

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

[COLOR=black]These are beautiful, uplifting thoughts. Nobody who calls himself or herself a Christian could possibly reject them. Don't you think that all people should live by these rules?

I think there is the difference friend; I don't think about anything, I believe in the Word of God.

While, yes, these quotes from that Hindu do sound virtuous my faith tells me they are a trap set by Satan. It's the same stuff basically as Catholicism, some guy telling us was is good and bad. I don't need a man to tell me that, God gave me the Bible.

Anyway the guy is a Hindu so how could he possibly be right?

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

You have raised many issues, and one thing I've learned in here is that conversations in the Landover forums tend to fly off onto wild tangents. So, to keep this focused, I'll take your issues on one at a time until we have worked through them all. Then we can get back to what I thought was the whole point of these forums, discussing the Bible.

Next he'll probably start quoting Deepak Chopra.

I hadn't planned to, but, since you raised the subject, I certainly can. I'm not really a Chopra fan, especially since his message morphed into "you will never die if you read my book." That's an out and out lie—no book can prevent death, which is just another aspect of life—and I do not approve of taking advantage of the sick and the elderly. But here's some stuff from an earlier work that I found more useful in my spiritual journey:

A false witness speaks lies and spreads discord among his brothers.

Well-spoken words are like golden apples in pictures of silver.

A virtuous woman is worth more than precious jewels. She opens her mouth with wisdom, and her speech is filled with the law of kindness.

Just as ointments and perfumes gladden the heart, words of hearty counsel sweeten your friends.

Whoever has pity on the poor is but lending to God, and what he has given, God will return to him.

These are beautiful, uplifting thoughts. Nobody who calls himself or herself a Christian could possibly reject them. Don't you think that all people should live by these rules?