An improper introduction

[IntellectuallyHonest, Spiritually Bankrupt]

Greetings. As the smartest among you may have guessed, I am an atheist. I was raised a fundamentalist Christian, but have escaped those chains. What removed from the faith, you may ask?? Well, to tell the truth, the Bible. At the age of about 23, I read all the Bible, front to back. It was then I realized the gross inaccuracies, contradictions, and what is now deemed as immorality spread throughout it's pages.

My challenge is this: prove the existence of your god to me. Feel free to use any logical, philosophical, or scientific evidence in your defense.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: A Challenge

Hello, and welcome to our friendly forums! You most certainly could not have been raised in the True Faith™, or when you read the Holy Bible, you would have understood it in context, and that would have strengthened your faith, not reveal a lack of it. There are, as a matter of fact, no inaccuracies, contradictions, or immorality, stated or implied. You simply read it wrong. You need to read it in faith. Won't you try again? I'll pray for you along the way!

[John Creeser]

Re: A Challenge

Greetings. As the smartest among you may have guessed, I am an atheist. I was raised a fundamentalist Christian, but have escaped those chains. What removed from the faith, you may ask?? Well, to tell the truth, the Bible. At the age of about 23, I read all the Bible, front to back. It was then I realized the gross inaccuracies, contradictions, and what is now deemed as immorality spread throughout it's pages.

My challenge is this: prove the existence of your god to me. Feel free to use any logical, philosophical, or scientific evidence in your defense.

If you are so smart you would know this subject has been covered, extensively.

We don't need scientific evidence of God's existence.

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1 Timothy 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

We have God's Word.

2nd Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Habakkuk 2:2 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

Thanks for coming by!

[Alvin Moss]

Re: A Challenge

We are not here to debate heathens, fellow. I can see you think you are very smart, but that is the same attitude we usually get from all you smart atheists. Don't expect us to be impressed. Rather, you should know we feel pity for you because you will burn in Hell if you don't get right with Jesus.

Perhaps God brought you here for salvation. We will try if you will only participate and maintain proper respect for your betters.

God Bless!

[Zechariah Smyth]

Re: A Challenge

Greetings. As the smartest among you may have guessed, I am an atheist. I was raised a fundamentalist Christian, but have escaped those chains. What removed from the faith, you may ask?? Well, to tell the truth, the Bible. At the age of about 23, I read all the Bible, front to back. It was then I realized the gross inaccuracies, contradictions, and what is now deemed as immorality spread throughout it's pages.

My challenge is this: prove the existence of your god to me. Feel free to use any logical, philosophical, or scientific evidence in your defense.

Maybe I'm just not intellectual enough, but I'm pretty sure that's not even a real question.



Yours in Christ,

Z. Smyth

[IntellectuallyHonest, Spiritually Bankrupt]

Re: A Challenge

Hello, and welcome to our friendly forums! You most certainly could not have been raised in the True Faith™, or when you read the Holy Bible, you would have understood it in context, and that would have strengthened your faith, not reveal a lack of it. There are, as a matter of fact, no inaccuracies, contradictions, or immorality, stated or implied. You simply read it wrong. You need to read it in faith. Won't you try again? I'll pray for you along the way!

No thank you, once was indeed far too much for me. It did not strengthen my faith, obviously. And what do you mean, "in context"??

I will start with inaccuracies;

13:31 Another parable put he [ Jesus ] forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Mustard seeds are simply not the smallest seeds.
20 All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you.
21 There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground.
22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper.
23 But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest.
Which winged creature was it that has four legs, again???

And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, and the vulture, and the kite after his kind; every raven after his kind; and the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind, and the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl, and the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
-Leviticus 11:13-19, KJV
Bats are not birds.
Then he made the molten sea; it was round, ten cubits from brim to brim, and five cubits high. A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely.
-1 Kings 7:23:
Or make that 31.4159265358979(…) cubits...
The Bible also referenced a "firmament" covering the sky, which would make the Earth flat. The moon is referred to as a light, stars are just tiny objects in the sky, and that the earth formed before the sun. Also their were days before the sun or moon....
Not to mention the flood, Jesus's miracles, the creation story, the plagues, the parting of the red sea, and everything else. Also the very existence of god.

Now for contradictions;

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Some may raise an objection to this alleged contradiction. You may point out that PSA 145:20 states that The Lord keeps all who love Him, but that He will destroy the wicked. In other words, you may see see no contradiction between "The Lord is good to all" and JER 13:14. I contend, however, that even if the Lord destroys the wicked he could do so with compassion, pity, and mercy. Further, there are biblical examples that indicate that the Lord is not necessarily "good" or merciful--even to those who are not wicked. One such example is Job. As one reader points out, "If Psalm 145:9 was not a contradiction of Psalm 145:20 or Jeremiah 13:14, it would read something like this: "The LORD is good to all, except the wicked: and his tender mercies are over all his works, except when He is punishing the wicked." In any case, the idea that the Lord is good and merciful is contradicted by countless examples in the Bible where God orders the destruction of infants, personally kills David's infant child, etc.
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen
MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.
JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
And that's just scratching the surface.


As for immorality, not one of you will debate the amount of murder, rape, and infanticide in the "holy" book is obscene at best, a slashed film at worst. Whatever happened to "Thou shall not murder"?? Apparently god is immune...

Here are just a few examples of completely unjustified murder in the Bible. I got this list from evilbible.com, a website you should all examine.

God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:
Kill Brats
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NA
God Kills the Curious
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Killed by a Lion
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
Killing the Good Samaritan
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NA
Murdering Children
Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NA
God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

[IntellectuallyHonest, Spiritually Bankrupt]

Re: A Challenge

If you are so smart you would know this subject has been covered, extensively.

We don't need scientific evidence of God's existence.

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1 Timothy 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

I expected these verses, but I must admit I did not anticipate it so soon. These verses are instructing Christians to avoid "oppositions of science falsely called so," or pseudo-science if you will. Unfortunately, most of you took/take this as all science. The common mistake is that science is simply ideas that man came up with, and are below "god." This is simply not so. Science is reality it is things we have observed or verified with evidence that are true. Completely true. None of you would argue against the tide, the moon's orbit, the wind, gravity, the seasons or the human autonomy, but all of these were discovered because of science. Science is not opinion, it is truth. And it almost always contradicts the Bible.

So of course you are warned against it. And you don't realize you are literally being warned against reality itself.

We have God's Word.

2nd Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Habakkuk 2:2 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

Thanks for coming by!

Classic circular reasoning. The Bible is true because its the word of god. The word of god is true because the bible says so. Works the same with Islam, so I guess Allah is correct, right??

[IntellectuallyHonest, Spiritually Bankrupt]

Re: A Challenge

Perhaps God brought you here for salvation. We will try if you will only participate and maintain proper respect for your betters.

God Bless!

If God is powerful enough to guide me to this forum, why would he not simply reveal himself to me to prove his existence?? Or the whole world, for that matter??

And my "betters"?? You consider yourself better than me because I don't believe in an all-powerful sky father and his son who is also him but kind of not who knew humanity would "fall" but then gets mad when we do and also could destroy satan and sin at any time but doesn't, and then is mad at us??

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: A Challenge

No thank you, once was indeed far too much for me. It did not strengthen my faith, obviously. And what do you mean, "in context"??

Well, just that. As your plagiarized list shows, these verses are all, each and every one of them, taken out of context. When reading the Holy Bible as a Whole, as One Love Letter from the Creator Of The Universe to His Beloved (the True Christian™), there are no possible contradictions. In fact, punishment is never used against the innocent, science (when conducted properly) confirms the Bible, and the historical record stands without confusion. It has been said by secular scholars even that the Holy Bible is the most accurately written book ever in existence.

[IntellectuallyHonest, Spiritually Bankrupt]

Re: A Challenge

Well, just that. As your plagiarized list shows, these verses are all, each and every one of them, taken out of context. When reading the Holy Bible as a Whole, as One Love Letter from the Creator Of The Universe to His Beloved (the True Christian™), there are no possible contradictions. In fact, punishment is never used against the innocent, science (when conducted properly) confirms the Bible, and the historical record stands without confusion. It has been said by secular scholars even that the Holy Bible is the most accurately written book ever in existence.

No contradictions?? Jesus says he and his father are one, but then says his father is more powerful then him. How is this taken out of context?? That is what Jesus said. How is this anything but a contradiction??

Also, the no innocent deaths. Let's look at the flood. Everything died. The "guilty" humans, their innocent babies, the innocent animals, their innocent babies, the innocent plants. Everything. What crime could the tiny baby kittens have committed?? They could of been born that die, but god killed them. And if he's all-powerful, (an impossibility), why doesn't he just snap his fingers and destroy all the "guilty" humans?? Why did he have to magically create a massive flood, magically transport all the animals on to the most massive ship in history, magically keep them all alive for months, (even the carnivores, what did they feed them with??) magically keep the animals from freezing, magically keep the air breathable, magically keep the animals under control and healthy for the duration of the flood, magically remove the water, magically transport all the animals to their homes again, magically restart the whole species with just two members, even though it takes 50 for enough genetic diversity, and then magically remove all signs of said flood, including the massive ship, and finally magically recreate all the plants?? That makes no sense...

And in light of all this, I challenge you to find one scholar who calls that accurate. And what do you mean, science "properly" done?? You acknowledge evolution??

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: An improper introduction

At the time of the Flood, Noah was the only righteous person alive (Genesis 6:9; 11). His wife and family were spared for the LORD is generous and merciful. But the rest died because corrupt, but the LORD is righteous and holy (Psalm 145:17). I don't understand your point about cats. Cats die every day.

[Zechariah Smyth]

Re: An improper introduction

Kid, you are intellectually dishonest. Do you really think you're the first numbnuts to copy-and-paste from evilbible.com?



Think for yourself next time, oh brilliant one.

[IntellectuallyHonest, Spiritually Bankrupt]

Re: An improper introduction

At the time of the Flood, Noah was the only righteous person alive (Genesis 6:9; 11). His wife and family were spared for the LORD is generous and merciful. But the rest died because corrupt, but the LORD is righteous and holy (Psalm 145:17). I don't understand your point about cats. Cats die every day.

I simply used the example of cats as an example of how completely innocent things were killed by the flood.

As to the authenticity of the flood myth, here's a list of cultures/locations whose ancient equivalents had similar myths, many of them before Christianity. Sumerian, Babylonian, Greece, Ireland, Finland, the Kwaya, Mbuti, Maasai, Mandin, and Yoruba peoples, (among others) of Africa, India, Turkestan, China, Korea, Malaysia, the Tai-Kadai people, Australia, Polynesia, the Hopi tribe, the W̱SÁNEC people, the Comox people, several Mesoamerican cultures including the Tlapanec, the Huaxtecs, the Aztecs and the Totonac peoples, and several South American cultures including the Inca, the Mapuche, the Muisca, and the Tupi. Not as unique as we are taught...

While this alone certainly doesn't prove your myth wrong, it does mean that Christianity is no more special than any other religion.

I also ask you one question, Mary, and that is why?? Why was all of humanity save Noah evil?? Why did they fall??

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: An improper introduction

I simply used the example of cats as an example of how completely innocent things were killed by the flood.

As to the authenticity of the flood myth, here's a list of cultures/locations whose ancient equivalents had similar myths, many of them before Christianity. Sumerian, Babylonian, Greece, Ireland, Finland, the Kwaya, Mbuti, Maasai, Mandin, and Yoruba peoples, (among others) of Africa, India, Turkestan, China, Korea, Malaysia, the Tai-Kadai people, Australia, Polynesia, the Hopi tribe, the W̱SÁNEC people, the Comox people, several Mesoamerican cultures including the Tlapanec, the Huaxtecs, the Aztecs and the Totonac peoples, and several South American cultures including the Inca, the Mapuche, the Muisca, and the Tupi. Not as unique as we are taught...

While this alone certainly doesn't prove your myth wrong, it does mean that Christianity is no more special than any other religion.

I also ask you one question, Mary, and that is why?? Why was all of humanity save Noah evil?? Why did they fall??

Christianity isn't a myth, it's a relationship with Jesus.

The answer to your question is found at the very beginning of the Holy Bible. Remember when you read it? It can be found in chapter 3. I'll give you a hint, this was during the days before the invention of the belly-button.

[IntellectuallyHonest, Spiritually Bankrupt]

Re: An improper introduction

Kid, you are intellectually dishonest. Do you really think you're the first numbnuts to copy-and-paste from evilbible.com?



Think for yourself next time, oh brilliant one.

Ironic, because thinking for myself is what removed me from your religion. Perhaps you should try it. And if I can't borrow from other humans to further the goals we share, you can't borrow verses from the Bible to further your own goals. No double standards, please. Also, reading the Bible and realizing its immorality makes me a "numbnut"?? Taking things with literally no evidence at all, based on the writings of an ancient text that is wildly incorrect, I assume, is the path of the true intellectual.