Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Brothers (and Sisters) -

A particularly well-off member of my congregation has bought me a present.

He and I will be going on a "Space Adventures" suborbital flight! It costs $102,000 each, but he says it will be well worth it.

The flight goes 62 miles up from the surface of the planet and flies about in space.

As a result of this, I will be able to report with absolute certainty whether the earth is flat or round. And I will also know if we slam into the Fundament.

The flight is next week!

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

Flight time is Thursday morning! I can't wait to see the entire Earth below me, and the fundament above, and the sun and the moon in the fundament! I hope we will fly alongside the icy mountain ranges that the fundament rests upon.

[True Disciple]

Re: Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

Flight time is Thursday morning! I can't wait to see the entire Earth below me, and the fundament above, and the sun and the moon in the fundament! I hope we will fly alongside the icy mountain ranges that the fundament rests upon.

If you do that, can you try to catch a glimpse of Hell beneath? Pictures of Hell always work very well to convince unbelievers to accept Christ.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

Be very careful not to point your camera too far upwards, if you see God's face your fate is sealed*!


*rather like a Canadian seal cub's fate is 'sealed'.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

Brothers and Sisters -

I have returned from my sub-orbital flight.

I have seen things. Things which forced me to turn to the Bible for consolation.

We did not crash into the fundament. In fact, it was nowhere to be seen. I believe that the Lord allowed the fundament to collapse when the waters without were unleashed on the Earth during the Flood.

We flew around the Earth. Yes, around.



It's true!

It looks like this:



Ice is not, as was believed, gathered in a vast mountain range around the edge of the world, supporting the fundament. Instead, it is at the north and south "poles". Just like on a scientician's globe.

But I have good news!

These things are remarkably consistent with Scripture:

1. The Shape of the Earth
   1. "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in," (Isaiah 40:22 NIV).
      1. This may or may not be construed to support the spherical shape of the earth. The horizon is a circle and a circle is flat.
2. The Earth is suspended in nothing
   1. "He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing," (Job. 26:7 NIV).
      1. This is particularly interesting, considering that the cosmology of other cultures at that time did not have the earth suspended in nothing, but rather upon pillars, or people, or animals.

Yes, I realize that the particular site is quoting the New International perVersion.
However, in this instance, the quotes are still essentially accurate.

The Earth is floating in space, supported by nothing, and it's a sphere. And the Bible supports this!

This PROVES that the Bible is God's Word! How could ancient Jews have known that the Earth was floating in space if GOD HIMSELF didn't tell them, eh? Answer me THAT, atheists!!

[True Disciple]

Re: Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

The Earth is floating in space, supported by nothing, and it's a sphere. And the Bible supports this!

Dear Reverend, though I hold you in high regard, I am afraid I must disagree with you here; the Earth cannot possibly a sphere. After all, we still read this in the Bible:

Job 28:24:
For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

Psalm 19:4-6:
Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Psalm 136:6:
To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Isaiah 42:5:
Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Isaiah 44:24-25:
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;

Isaiah 51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Daniel 4:10-11:
Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

Matthew 4:8:
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Job 38:13:
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Psalm 103:12:
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Proverbs 8:27-29:
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Isaiah 11:12:
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Ezekiel 7:2:
Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land.

Revelation 7:1:
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Job 9:6:
Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

Isaiah 24:1:
Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

I think that the people who took you on that flight in reality put you in some kind of simulator, designed to destroy your Faith in the Bible! If I were you, I'd demand my money back!

Also, about these Verses:

Job 26:7:
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Isaiah 40:21-22:
Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

The first of these Verses only says that the Earth isn't hanged on anything. However, this is consistent with Job 9:6, which teaches that the Earth is founded on pillars, as the Earth doesn't hang on them; it simply is supported by it, because the pillars are below the Earth! It isn't suspended in any way; instead it is supported by pillars.

The second Verse gives a view from above: From that vantage point, the Earth indeed seems round, because the Earth is pancake-shaped. However, this Verse also teaches that the Earth has foundations under it.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

All I see is part of a flat disk and. in the far, far distance at the boundaries of the firmament, the thin line of white that is the ice wall.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

All I see is part of a flat disk and. in the far, far distance at the boundaries of the firmament, the thin line of white that is the ice wall.

That's because you weren't up there. It's a gigantic sphere.

And I know it wasn't a simulator, because members of my congregation were watching the liftoff and landing.

[True Disciple]

Re: Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

That's because you weren't up there. It's a gigantic sphere.

And I know it wasn't a simulator, because members of my congregation were watching the liftoff and landing.

Well, obviously, then you were high in the air, but still in a simulator.
Reverend, you aren't going to discount all those Scripture Verses now, are you? After all, who knows better than God?

[Cursed]

Re: Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

What I don't get is, why does it matter?

I just want to get to Heaven, then GOD can tell me what the facts are, Praise Him!

Then I won't be stupid anymore, ha ha! You guys are so smart and you have the whole Bible memorized and you know so much and I'm just a dumb bastard here on Earth, but in Heaven I'll be as smart as you forever and ever and ever and we can all sing praises to JESUS for all time!

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

Dear Reverend, though I hold you in high regard, I am afraid I must disagree with you here; the Earth cannot possibly a sphere. After all, we still read this in the Bible:

Job 28:24:
For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

A common expression having nothing to do with the shape of the earth.


Psalm 19:4-6:
Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

As above.

Psalm 136:6:
To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

I don't see how this indicates a shape of the planet.

Isaiah 42:5:
Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

As above.

Isaiah 44:24-25:
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;

As above.

Isaiah 51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Are you saying the Earth is a garment, now? Is it a robe, or a pair of pants? Neither of those is a flat square, now is it? This only says the Earth will age.

Daniel 4:10-11:
Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

This is describing a vision, not the shape of the planet.

Matthew 4:8:
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

At this time, all the kingdoms of the world were located within one part of the world. If you look at a globe, if you are far enough away (high enough up on a mountain), you can see all of the civilized countries at that time.

It didn't say that the devil showed Him all the destitute, maggot-eating savages of the world. Not much glory there.

Job 38:13:
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

"Ends of the Earth" is a common expression used even today.

Psalm 103:12:
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

This says nothing about the shape of the Earth, and you're really reaching.

Proverbs 8:27-29:
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

That'd be the core and the mantle. The foundations.



This is how the scienticians explain it.


Isaiah 11:12:
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Common expression, like "ends of the Earth".

Ezekiel 7:2:
Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land.

Common expression, like "ends of the Earth".

Revelation 7:1:
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Common expression, like "ends of the Earth".

Job 9:6:
Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

Describing an earthquake. So?

Isaiah 24:1:
Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

Sounds to me like a description of pole shift:



The scienticians think that the Earth's poles move.That would have the effect of "turning the world upside down"! (They obviously have the timing off a few thousand years, but may be correct on the rest.)

I think that the people who took you on that flight in reality put you in some kind of simulator, designed to destroy your Faith in the Bible! If I were you, I'd demand my money back!

It wasn't a simulator. It was, in fact, a "flight in reality". I could see the members of my congregation out the window before we took off.

Also, about these Verses:

Job 26:7:
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Isaiah 40:21-22:
Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

The first of these Verses only says that the Earth isn't hanged on anything. However, this is consistent with Job 9:6, which teaches that the Earth is founded on pillars, as the Earth doesn't hang on them; it simply is supported by it, because the pillars are below the Earth! It isn't suspended in any way; instead it is supported by pillars.

The second Verse gives a view from above: From that vantage point, the Earth indeed seems round, because the Earth is pancake-shaped. However, this Verse also teaches that the Earth has foundations under it.

Brother, please explain how Isaiah 11:12, Ezekiel 7:2, and Revelation 7:1 (all of which you cited above as "proving" a square or rectangular Earth) are consistent with Isaiah 40:21-22, which clearly states that the Earth is round, not rectilinear.

I am glad that belief in a "flat" Earth is not a Salvation issue!

I wonder how many of Landover's congregation secretly know the Earth is a sphere, but are afraid to say so for fear of being kicked out of the church?

Here's some wonderful additional reading.

[True Disciple]

Re: Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

Job 28:24:
For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

A common expression having nothing to do with the shape of the earth.

Oh yes, it definitely has. Where do you think that expression comes from? Like many of our modern-day expressions, from the Bible.
Anyway, since when do you prefer to interpret something as an "expression" over the literal reading of the text? Because as a globe has no ends, it is excluded as a possible shape of the Earth when we take the Passage literally.

Psalm 136:6:
To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

I don't see how this indicates a shape of the planet.

Of course it does. By stretching something out, you make it longer and flatter. Therefore, a globe is the least stretched-out shape there is, as there is no conceivable three-dimensional shape that becomes a globe when stretched.

If the world had been a globe, this Verse would have read: "And the Lord compressed the Earth above the waters."

Isaiah 51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Are you saying the Earth is a garment, now? Is it a robe, or a pair of pants? Neither of those is a flat square, now is it? This only says the Earth will age.

No, it says that it will age like a garment. It will not age like cheese, not like people, not like mountains, not like trees, not like books, but like a garment.
That, of course, means that the Earth apparently can be compared more with a garment than with any of the other things I've named. And what is a garment made from? Long, flat materials.

Daniel 4:10-11:
Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

This is describing a vision, not the shape of the planet.

No, it says that all ends from the Earth could be seen only from that tree, as the sight only "reached to the end of the Earth," after it had grown to a certain height.

Also, the prophet doesn't say "I could see to the ends of the Earth," but just "the sight thereof was to the end of the earth," implying that this was not something that was unique to him, which you would have expected in case it only applied to him having the vision.

Matthew 4:8:
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

At this time, all the kingdoms of the world were located within one part of the world. If you look at a globe, if you are far enough away (high enough up on a mountain), you can see all of the civilized countries at that time.

It didn't say that the devil showed Him all the destitute, maggot-eating savages of the world. Not much glory there.

You are using a very broad definition of the world "king" here. Think about how many of the feeble tribal chieftains of the Canaanites are called "kings" by the book of Judges: Adonibezek has managed to conquer 70 of them and fit them all under a very big table (Judges 1:1-7). Israel isn't that big, so these kings weren't that mighty either.

And anyway, if the round earth hypothesis was correct, there still would have been no mountain on Earth from where you could see both Rome and China, both mighty empires at that time. So yes, this Passage disproves the round earth hypothesis.

Job 38:13:
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

"Ends of the Earth" is a common expression used even today.

Yes, but not in the context of grabbing the earth and shaking people out of it.

Psalm 103:12:
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

This says nothing about the shape of the Earth, and you're really reaching.

No, I'm not. If the round earth hypothesis were correct, then if you would go west, you'd eventually end up east, which would make the far east the exact same place as the far west. However, this Passage teaches that the far east and the far west aren't the same place, but are actually removed a great distance from one another.

Proverbs 8:27-29:
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

That'd be the core and the mantle. The foundations.



This is how the scienticians explain it.

And they are wrong. Maybe not when combining this concept with this Passage, but certainly when combining it with Job 9:6. Because this "lithosphere" of those secular scientists can in no way be interpreted as "pillars."

Isaiah 11:12:
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Common expression, like "ends of the Earth".

Same as with the previous common expressions. Why wouldn't God just say the "furthest places of the Earth" or "the other side of the globe," if the Earth was round?

Job 9:6:
Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

Describing an earthquake. So?

Well, it says that the Earth is founded on pillars, not on a "lithosphere."

Isaiah 24:1:
Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

Sounds to me like a description of pole shift:

The scienticians think that the Earth's poles move.That would have the effect of "turning the world upside down"! (They obviously have the timing off a few thousand years, but may be correct on the rest.)

Reverend, this has nothing to do with a "pole shift," as in the round earth hypothesis, there is no real difference between the North and South Pole, and one is not "up" while the other is "down." Up and down would just be a matter of your arbitrarily chosen reference frame. A spherical Earth has no up- or downsides. A flat Earth, of course, has.

It wasn't a simulator. It was, in fact, a "flight in reality". I could see the members of my congregation out the window before we took off.

You were probably watching them on a computer screen, or on a false image created by Satan to deceive you! Remember, the adversary will do anything to destroy the Faith of you and your flock. Don't let him win! This is one of those moments where it is vital to let your Faith trump your common sense, as it also might be God testing your Faith!

Brother, please explain how Isaiah 11:12, Ezekiel 7:2, and Revelation 7:1 (all of which you cited above as "proving" a square or rectangular Earth) are consistent with Isaiah 40:21-22, which clearly states that the Earth is round, not rectilinear.

Reverend, I hope you aren't suggesting that God's Word would be internally contradictory?

I am glad that belief in a "flat" Earth is not a Salvation issue!

I think it is, Reverend. After all, Jesus says:

John 12:21:
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

And these Commandments include:

Matthew 5:17-19:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Like the rest of the Bible, not believing in the Verses proving a flat Earth will negatively affect your Salvation™.

I wonder how many of Landover's congregation secretly know the Earth is a sphere, but are afraid to say so for fear of being kicked out of the church?

Reverend, are you now calling the integrity of our church members into question as well?

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

Oh yes, it definitely has. Where do you think that expression comes from? Like many of our modern-day expressions, from the Bible.
Anyway, since when do you prefer to interpret something as an "expression" over the literal reading of the text? Because as a globe has no ends, it is excluded as a possible shape of the Earth when we take the Passage literally.

See the visions of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar, and Pharaoh, mentioned below.

Of course it does. By stretching something out, you make it longer and flatter. Therefore, a globe is the least stretched-out shape there is, as there is no conceivable three-dimensional shape that becomes a globe when stretched.

If the world had been a globe, this Verse would have read: "And the Lord compressed the Earth above the waters."

In that passage, "the earth" is referencing land, not the planet. Context, Brother.

No, it says that it will age like a garment. It will not age like cheese, not like people, not like mountains, not like trees, not like books, but like a garment.
That, of course, means that the Earth apparently can be compared more with a garment than with any of the other things I've named. And what is a garment made from? Long, flat materials.

It means it, AND THE PEOPLE (they that dwell therein), will wear out and die. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Earth's shape.

No, it says that all ends from the Earth could be seen only from that tree, as the sight only "reached to the end of the Earth," after it had grown to a certain height.

Also, the prophet doesn't say "I could see to the ends of the Earth," but just "the sight thereof was to the end of the earth," implying that this was not something that was unique to him, which you would have expected in case it only applied to him having the vision.

It was a vision. He was not describing an actual, real tree. Visions are typically metaphorical, much as the visions of Daniel.

See Daniel 2:31-45. See also Daniel 4 (vision sent by God to Nebuchadnezzar) and Genesis 41 (vision sent by God to Pharaoh, interpreted by Joseph). All metaphorical.

You are using a very broad definition of the world "king" here. Think about how many of the feeble tribal chieftains of the Canaanites are called "kings" by the book of Judges: Adonibezek has managed to conquer 70 of them and fit them all under a very big table (Judges 1:1-7). Israel isn't that big, so these kings weren't that mighty either.

If you think Australian aborigines and Eskimos had "glorious kingdoms", then I'd be interested to know what you think happened to those glorious kingdoms, and why there is no evidence of their ever having existed.

A kingdom is actually very narrowly defined, Brother. It is you who are expanding "kingdom" from its actual meaning to include every strongest-guy-in-the-village who yammers in grunts and clicks.

And anyway, if the round earth hypothesis was correct, there still would have been no mountain on Earth from where you could see both Rome and China, both mighty empires at that time. So yes, this Passage disproves the round earth hypothesis.

You are both right and wrong. There is no mountain on Earth where a human could see both Rome and China, because we can't see that far. Jesus is God. Do you say it is beyond Him to see farther than humans? Do you say that it is beyond Him to see around a round Earth, for that matter?

Yes, but not in the context of grabbing the earth and shaking people out of it.

What does shaking people off the Earth have to do with its shape?

Are you saying God cannot grasp a ball, but He can grasp a square-round pancake-sheet?

No, I'm not. If the round earth hypothesis were correct, then if you would go west, you'd eventually end up east, which would make the far east the exact same place as the far west. However, this Passage teaches that the far east and the far west aren't the same place, but are actually removed a great distance from one another.

It is clearly an expression. East and west are directions, not places. Much like up and down, they are relative to an arbitrary starting point.

And they are wrong. Maybe not when combining this concept with this Passage, but certainly when combining it with Job 9:6. Because this "lithosphere" of those secular scientists can in no way be interpreted as "pillars."

It can when you go into a cave and see the stalactites and stalagmites, Brother.

Same as with the previous common expressions. Why wouldn't God just say the "furthest places of the Earth" or "the other side of the globe," if the Earth was round?

It is not for me to know the mind of the Lord. Nor is it for you to know.

Well, it says that the Earth is founded on pillars, not on a "lithosphere."

And elsewhere, it says that the Earth hangs on nothing.

Reverend, this has nothing to do with a "pole shift," as in the round earth hypothesis, there is no real difference between the North and South Pole, and one is not "up" while the other is "down." Up and down would just be a matter of your arbitrarily chosen reference frame. A spherical Earth has no up- or downsides. A flat Earth, of course, has.

That sounded rather scientific, Brother. I'm glad to see that you agree that up and down are relative.

You were probably watching them on a computer screen, or on a false image created by Satan to deceive you! Remember, the adversary will do anything to destroy the Faith of you and your flock. Don't let him win! This is one of those moments where it is vital to let your Faith trump your common sense, as it also might be God testing your Faith!

Sorry, you are misunderstanding God's Word. There are many Christian ministries demonstrating that the Bible is entirely consistent with modern science. I even gave you links to read, which you haven't.

Reverend, I hope you aren't suggesting that God's Word would be internally contradictory?

Not at all, Brother. Indeed, YOU are the one insisting that the Earth is flat and rectilinear, yet also circular like a pancake.

Why do you question God's Word, Brother?

I think it is, Reverend. After all, Jesus says:

John 12:21:
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

And these Commandments include:

Matthew 5:17-19:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Like the rest of the Bible, not believing in the Verses proving a flat Earth will negatively affect your Salvation™.

There are no verses proving a flat Earth. You merely misunderstand the Word.

Perhaps you should go for a flight yourself!

[True Disciple]

Re: Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

In that passage, "the earth" is referencing land, not the planet. Context, Brother.

No, it isn't, The waters we are talking about here are the waters of space. After all, in your round-earth cosmology, there wouldn't be waters beneath the earth, but earth beneath the waters only.

It was a vision. He was not describing an actual, real tree. Visions are typically metaphorical, much as the visions of Daniel.

There is no indication in this vision that the Earth Daniel sees is not the real Earth. Maybe it was the Earth in the future, but still it was the Earth. And from the tree in his vision, he could see the entire Earth. It's not about the tree being real or not; the point is that if the tree were real, you could see the entire Earth from it. That means the Earth is flat.

See Daniel 2:31-45. See also Daniel 4 (vision sent by God to Nebuchadnezzar) and Genesis 41 (vision sent by God to Pharaoh, interpreted by Joseph). All metaphorical.

As I said, it doesn't matter. There is no reason to suppose that the "Earth" in Nebuchadnezzar's dream was anything else than the real Earth.

If you think Australian aborigines and Eskimos had "glorious kingdoms", then I'd be interested to know what you think happened to those glorious kingdoms, and why there is no evidence of their ever having existed.

I was talking about China and Rome, Reverend. If those weren't "kingdoms," then there was nothing for Jesus to see.

A kingdom is actually very narrowly defined, Brother. It is you who are expanding "kingdom" from its actual meaning to include every strongest-guy-in-the-village who yammers in grunts and clicks.

Reverend, I have quoted the Bible to support my point about what we should consider to be a "king." As I said, there were hundreds of "kings" in Canaan. As Canaan isn't big enough to house hundreds of kingdoms that are bigger than eskimo villages (let alone Chinese Empires), it is clear that "strongest-guy-in-the-village who yammers in grunts and clicks" can indeed be considered "kings" according to the Bible.

Again, I didn't broaden the definition, the Bible did. Why are you disregarding the Bible, Reverend?

You are both right and wrong. There is no mountain on Earth where a human could see both Rome and China, because we can't see that far. Jesus is God. Do you say it is beyond Him to see farther than humans? Do you say that it is beyond Him to see around a round Earth, for that matter?

Of course not, but this Verse doesn't say that Jesus looked around Himself, but that the devil "shew Him" the kingdoms of the world. And the devil, unlike Jesus, isn't almighty.

Additionally, why do you think the devil took Jesus up a mountain, if it wasn't to have a better view on everything? It would be quite useless, Jesus and Satan strolling all the way up to the mountain to see everything, if they could just as well have stayed where they were.

What does shaking people off the Earth have to do with its shape?

Because God "took hold" of the ends of the Earth, in order to shake the wicked out of it. A round Earth doesn't have "ends" you can use as handles for such a purpose.

Additionally, if the round-earth cosmology was correct, then you couldn't shake people out of the world, since the meaning of up and down wouldn't change by turning the earth on its head. In a flat-earth cosmology, however, there is a change in up-and-down if the earth is turned on its head.

Are you saying God cannot grasp a ball, but He can grasp a square-round pancake-sheet?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that this Verse teaches that God grabbed the Earth "by its ends," and a round Earth does only have metaphorical ends, which cannot function as a handle.

It is clearly an expression. East and west are directions, not places. Much like up and down, they are relative to an arbitrary starting point.

Reverend, you're forgetting what this Verse actually says:

Psalm 103:12:
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

My very point was: if they were "relative to a starting point," then the far east and far west, being the same place, wouldn't have been removed at all from one another, which would make the Bible say that God didn't remove our transgressions from us. You know that the Bible doesn't teach that, Reverend.

It can when you go into a cave and see the stalactites and stalagmites, Brother.

Reverend, there aren't enough stalactites and stalagmites to support the Earth with. Also, these stalactites and stalagmites themselves are founded on deeper rock layers, so they can not be considered "pillars of the earth," as they are supported by the Earth, not vice versa.

It is not for me to know the mind of the Lord. Nor is it for you to know.

True.
But Reverend, while it certainly could be that God used "corners of the earth" as a metaphoric denotation for a round earth, there is no reason why that would be more likely than God using this expression for a flat earth, which is more true to a literal reading of the text.
And if there is no reason to prefer a metaphorical reading over a literal reading of the Bible (if there are no other Bible Verses that require it), we should always go with the literal meaning.

And elsewhere, it says that the Earth hangs on nothing.

I answered this before, I believe. The Earth "hangs" on nothing, because it doesn't hang at all: it rests on pillars. After all, the Earth couldn't "hang" on pillars, could it? It could hang on ropes of some kind maybe, but pillars can support things resting on them.

That sounded rather scientific, Brother. I'm glad to see that you agree that up and down are relative.

I didn't say that. I said that they were in a round-earth cosmology. I then said that in a flat earth cosmology, they weren't. And the Verse we were discussing said that the Earth was turned upside down, implying an upside and a downside which certainly aren't relative, as in that case, there would be no point in turning the Earth over.

Sorry, you are misunderstanding God's Word. There are many Christian ministries demonstrating that the Bible is entirely consistent with modern science. I even gave you links to read, which you haven't.

No, of course I haven't. I detest false christians who mangle God's Word to make it fit the expectations of godless atheist scientists. As you should as well.

Not at all, Brother. Indeed, YOU are the one insisting that the Earth is flat and rectilinear, yet also circular like a pancake.

Why do you question God's Word, Brother?

I never did, I only asked you a question.

Nevertheless, God can do everything, so he can also make a pancake shaped Earth with four corners. God is mightier than geometry. Problem solved.

There are no verses proving a flat Earth. You merely misunderstand the Word.

Again, I have proven in every single Verse I quoted that the Bible indeed supports a flat earth cosmology. Meanwhile, there are no Verses supporting a round earth. That's how it is, Reverend. Why are you resisting the Truth™ of the Bible?

Perhaps you should go for a flight yourself!

Definitely not. If these are the consequences, then I'll pass this honor.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Coming soon: Christian proof of the Earth's shape!

No, it isn't, The waters we are talking about here are the waters of space. After all, in your round-earth cosmology, there wouldn't be waters beneath the earth, but earth beneath the waters only.

Are you suggesting that the ocean is above the land, Brother, instead of below it?

The waters of space were dumped onto the Earth during the Flood.

There is no indication in this vision that the Earth Daniel sees is not the real Earth. Maybe it was the Earth in the future, but still it was the Earth. And from the tree in his vision, he could see the entire Earth. It's not about the tree being real or not; the point is that if the tree were real, you could see the entire Earth from it. That means the Earth is flat.

Actually, it said the tree was "in the midst" of the Earth.

Why could the tree not have been at the center of the Earth, from which one could in fact (with Godly Vision vision) see every point on the surface?

As I said, it doesn't matter. There is no reason to suppose that the "Earth" in Nebuchadnezzar's dream was anything else than the real Earth.

By which I assume you mean Daniel's dream. And there's no reason to suppose it was anything but a metaphor for God to convey a message, as in the other visions I have listed.

I was talking about China and Rome, Reverend. If those weren't "kingdoms," then there was nothing for Jesus to see.

And if you were high enough, you could well see China and Rome, as I've already said. Assuming you had Godly vision.

Reverend, I have quoted the Bible to support my point about what we should consider to be a "king." As I said, there were hundreds of "kings" in Canaan. As Canaan isn't big enough to house hundreds of kingdoms that are bigger than eskimo villages (let alone Chinese Empires), it is clear that "strongest-guy-in-the-village who yammers in grunts and clicks" can indeed be considered "kings" according to the Bible.

If that's what you call "glorious", I guess we have different standards, Brother.

Again, I didn't broaden the definition, the Bible did. Why are you disregarding the Bible, Reverend?

Why are you, Brother? How glorious are maggot-eating Aborigines? Even Satan wouldn't try to tempt Jesus with that!

Of course not, but this Verse doesn't say that Jesus looked around Himself, but that the devil "shew Him" the kingdoms of the world. And the devil, unlike Jesus, isn't almighty.

The devil is, however, an angel. Angels have powers far beyond those of humans. They are immortal, they can change shape, and move from place to place in an instant. We do not know by what means Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms.

Additionally, why do you think the devil took Jesus up a mountain, if it wasn't to have a better view on everything? It would be quite useless, Jesus and Satan strolling all the way up to the mountain to see everything, if they could just as well have stayed where they were.

Why do you think God required Moses to come up a mountain to commune with Him? So Moses could see farther, with his mere-human eyes?

A private place, away from all the humans, Brother.

Because God "took hold" of the ends of the Earth, in order to shake the wicked out of it. A round Earth doesn't have "ends" you can use as handles for such a purpose.

stretch it farther, Brother. If the "ends of the Earth" is metaphorical, then it's still metaphorical.

Additionally, if the round-earth cosmology was correct, then you couldn't shake people out of the world, since the meaning of up and down wouldn't change by turning the earth on its head. In a flat-earth cosmology, however, there is a change in up-and-down if the earth is turned on its head.

We've already established that up and down are relative. And God certainly could shake people off of the planet if He so desired. Why do you doubt His abilities?

How exactly would He shake them off the Earth if there were a solid dome above it? They'd hit the dome, and then slide back to Earth. Like the flakes in a snow globe.

Reverend, you're forgetting what this Verse actually says:

Psalm 103:12:
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

My very point was: if they were "relative to a starting point," then the far east and far west, being the same place, wouldn't have been removed at all from one another, which would make the Bible say that God didn't remove our transgressions from us. You know that the Bible doesn't teach that, Reverend.

Except there is a maximum you can go east until you are an equal distance west of your starting point. I'm sorry this is so complicated for you, Brother. Did you go to public school?

Reverend, there aren't enough stalactites and stalagmites to support the Earth with. Also, these stalactites and stalagmites themselves are founded on deeper rock layers, so they can not be considered "pillars of the earth," as they are supported by the Earth, not vice versa.

So what is it you believe the pillars rest upon, Brother, if not rock?

True.
But Reverend, while it certainly could be that God used "corners of the earth" as a metaphoric denotation for a round earth, there is no reason why that would be more likely than God using this expression for a flat earth, which is more true to a literal reading of the text.
And if there is no reason to prefer a metaphorical reading over a literal reading of the Bible (if there are no other Bible Verses that require it), we should always go with the literal meaning.

Then you are forced to believe that the Bible is contradictory, and that the Earth is both square, with corners, and circular . . . by definition, without corners.

Why do you insist that the Bible is contradictory, Brother?

I answered this before, I believe. The Earth "hangs" on nothing, because it doesn't hang at all: it rests on pillars. After all, the Earth couldn't "hang" on pillars, could it? It could hang on ropes of some kind maybe, but pillars can support things resting on them.

And upon what do your pillars rest?

I didn't say that. I said that they were in a round-earth cosmology. I then said that in a flat earth cosmology, they weren't. And the Verse we were discussing said that the Earth was turned upside down, implying an upside and a downside which certainly aren't relative, as in that case, there would be no point in turning the Earth over.

If it is possible to turn the (flat) Earth over, which according to you is spread above water and supported on pillars, wouldn't that effectively flood the entire planet and drown the entire population . . . which God promised never to do again?

Are you calling God a liar, Brother? This is very disturbing.

Nevertheless, God can do everything, so he can also make a pancake shaped Earth with four corners. God is mightier than geometry. Problem solved.

Yet according to you, He would choose to describe it in His Word as being both square and circular. Why would that be? Again, are you calling God a liar?

Again, I have proven in every single Verse I quoted that the Bible indeed supports a flat earth cosmology. Meanwhile, there are no Verses supporting a round earth. That's how it is, Reverend. Why are you resisting the Truth™ of the Bible?

Insisting that you have proven yourself right when you have been refudiated is proof of nothing. Who are you, Obama?

Definitely not. If these are the consequences, then I'll pass this honor.

If you went on the flight, you could make a video proving me wrong.