[Zechariah Smyth]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Lemme elaborate more. To people who think like Greeks, the incarnation was a total impossibility. It was just too incredible that one who had suffered as Jesus had suffered could possibly be the Son of God. Celsus wrote, “God is good and beautiful and happy and is in that which is most beautiful and best. If then “He descends to men” it involves change for him, and change from good to bad, from beautiful to ugly, from happiness to unhappiness, from what is best to what is worst. Who would choose such a change? For mortality it is only nature to alter and be changed; but for the immortal to abide the same forever. God would never accept such a change.” Plutarch, the great historian and philosopher, declared that it was an insult to God to involve him in human affairs. God, of necessity, was utterly detached. The very idea of incarnation, of God becoming a man, was revolting to the Greek mind.

Whoa, whoa, WHOA...did you just call Jesus Christ ugly?

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Lemme elaborate more. To people who think like Greeks, the incarnation was a total impossibility....

You mean like,

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:23-24

Why didn't you just quote God's Holy Word instead of infiltrating this discussion with your own confusing babble?

That's not very considerate.

[Shimei]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Whoa, whoa, WHOA...did you just call Jesus Christ ugly?

No Sir. Jesus is morally beautiful.

I am fascinated at this moment with Paul. And I am curious as to why Paul did not mention the Greeks when he said, 1 Corinthians 9:20.

The incredible thing is our ability to think. This came to mind while reading these Scriptures. Thinking is what separates the prey from the predator. The predator can think like the prey and be quite calculating and agile in their process of thinking. This is only my musing of course, and thanks for an ear. I become quite excited and enjoy sharing Scripture, God's insights are incredible. Each and every time I reread something it seems as though there's something new!

[Shimei]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

You mean like,

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:23-24

Why didn't you just quote God's Holy Word instead of infiltrating this discussion with your own confusing babble?

That's not very considerate.

Yes Mary. I see Paul speaking simplicity. One could argue that in Athens when Paul preached to the philosophers on Mar's Hill, Paul had limited success while speaking in their same language -- Acts 17:32. Paul came to the Corinthians a little more experienced and more wiser.

[Levi Jones]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

The very idea of incarnation, of God becoming a man, was revolting to the Greek mind.

But not a swan or a bull.. That was okay? What about Heracles death? What about the imprisonment of all the titans?

The Greeks were certainly not monotheists. This calling the Greek gods God is misleading to say the least.

[Levi Jones]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

The Greeks argued that if God can feel joy or sorrow or anger or grief, then it means that some human being has for that moment influenced God and is therefore greater than God. So they went on to argue that none may ever affect God. A God who suffered was to the Greeks a contradiction in terms.

There you go implying the Greeks were monotheistic again. The Greeks gods were often prone to jealousy and being irritable, completely unlike our sweet and loving God.

Just thought to add this, and oh, I came across the perfection I believe most here are referring to when speaking of True Christians. The word teleioi. There are actually two accounts of perfection that I came across in studies, the first I can't remember, but remember that something is perfect once it becomes aware of its purpose, and the second is like it. When we become mature we receive deeper teachings.

I wrote about this very subject in my sermon here. After having read this argument for the word perfect not actually meaning perfect, I did some more study on it.

Perhaps you don't think the New Testament word rendered as perfect actually means perfect.

Maybe you think it means mature? Then this section is for you. Perfect in the New Testament is τέλειος teleios. Some say this means mature. Some modern translations even render it as such in some parts of the Bible. But then when it comes to these verses, teleios suddenly means perfect again.

Romans 12:2.
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.

Does that mean God's will is "mature?" Of course not. It's the same Greek word teleios.

See Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Again, it's the same Greek word telios. I seriously doubt you would call Jesus a mature tabernacle, would you?
Could it be that the translators of the newer translations are pressured into accepting Calvinist doctrine on total depravity?
I'll let you be the judge.

1 Corinthians 2:10-16 informs us that the only true knowledge we can obtain is through the Spirit of God. Pneuma is the word for spirit

It also means wind, rendering John 3 a little more tricky to understand.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the (wind) Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit (wind) is spirit (wind).
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind (spirit) bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit (wind).

Sometimes I wonder if they could have possibly gotten it.... Nah, I'm sure it means exactly as the translators meant it to.

and the person who is pneumatikos is someone who is sensitive to the Spirit and whose life is guided by the Spirit. We are to make ourselves receptive to the Spirit of God so when He speaks we hear. Without being receptive to the Spirit the truth can neither be spoken nor heard rightly.

Fun fact. Pneumatikos is only used twice in the New Testament. Once in 1 Cor 2 and another time in Rev 11.

[Shimei]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Thank you Levi.

[Levi Jones]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Thank you Levi.

You're welcome, friend. I think it's wonderful that you are studying the Word so hard and trying to understand it, but wouldn't you be happier not going down this road?

Many who go down it are irretrievably lost to the Lord. They start with an open mind that they will discover the truth whether it is good, bad or indifferent and then they start to think that it is irreconcilable.

Just remember Shimei, if it ever looks like the Bible is wrong or contradictory, it's your fault. Nothing ever is God's fault. That is the first rule of textual criticism of apologists like us. If you write enough words and read longer explanations than the text you are reading itself, you can make the pain in your head go away.

[Shimei]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Levi,

Thank you for your encouragement.

I'd like to share with you a page from a study guide. I had lost my internet connection for an hour so to kill time I typed it out. There seems to be a lot of emphasis placed on the Greek word teleios given the length of commentary. Here's the page, please feel free to add anything. I don't really see where any of this really contradicts what has been shared:

Matthew 5:43-8
Jesus said, You, therefore, must be perfect. This word is often used in Greek in a very special way. It has nothing to do with what we might call abstract, philosophical, metaphysical perfection. A victim which is fit for a sacrifice to God, that is a victim which is without blemish, is teleios. A man who has reached his full-grown stature is teleios as distinct from a half-grown youth. A student who has reached a mature knowledge of a subject is teleios as opposed to a learner who is just beginning, and who as yet has no grasp of things.



To put it another way, the Greek idea of perfection is functional. A thing is perfect if fully realizes the purpose for which it was planned, designed and made. In point of fact, that meaning is involved in the derivation of the word. Teleios is the adjective formed from the noun telos. Telos means an end, a purpose, an aim, a goal. A thing is teleios if it achieves the purpose for which it is planned; human beings are perfect if they achieve the purpose for which they were created and sent into the world.



Let us take a very simply analogy. Suppose in my house there is a loose screw, and I want to tighten and adjust this screw. I go out and I buy a screwdriver. I find that the screwdriver exactly fits the grip of my hand; it is neither too large nor too small, too rough nor too smooth. I lay the screwdriver on the slot of the screw and the screw is fixed. In the Greek sense, and especially in the NT sense, that screwdriver is teleios, because it exactly fulfilled the purpose for which I desired and bought it.


So, people will be teleios if they fulfill the purpose for which they were created. For what purpose were human beings created? The Bible leaves us in no doubt as to that. In the old creation story in the RSV translation, we find God saying: ‘Let us make man in our image after our likeness’ (Genesis 1:26). Human beings were created to be like God. The characteristic of God is this universal benevolence, this unconquerable goodwill, this constant seeking of the highest good of every individual. The great characteristic of God is love to saint and to sinner alike. No matter what we do to him, God seeks nothing but our highest good.



Edward Denny’s hymn has it of Jesus:

Thy foes might hate, despise, revile,
Thy friends unfaithful prove;
Unwearied in forgiveness still,
Thy heart could only love.



It is when we reproduce in our lives the unwearied, forgiving, sacrificial benevolence of God that we become like God, and are therefore perfect in the NT sense of the word. To put it at its simplest, those men and women who care most for others are the most perfect.



It is the whole teaching of the Bible that we attain our humanity only by becoming Godlike. The one thing which makes us like God is the love which never ceases to care for others, no matter what they do to it. We fulfill our humanity; we enter upon Christian perfection, when we learn to forgive as God forgives, and to love as God loves. – Professor William Barclay

[Nobar King]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Let us take a very simply analogy. Suppose in my house there is a loose screw, and I want to tighten and adjust this screw. I go out and I buy a screwdriver. I find that the screwdriver exactly fits the grip of my hand; it is neither too large nor too small, too rough nor too smooth. I lay the screwdriver on the slot of the screw and the screw is fixed. In the Greek sense, and especially in the NT sense, that screwdriver is teleios, because it exactly fulfilled the purpose for which I desired and bought it.

Sears has a thousand different screwdrivers and they all fit your hand because it's basically just a stick with a handle.That's good for my Home Depot stock but what does that mean for my spiritual life?

[Shimei]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Sears has a thousand different screwdrivers and they all fit your hand because it's basically just a stick with a handle.That's good for my Home Depot stock but what does that mean for my spiritual life?

Hello Mr. Nobar King,

Can you clarify?

If I am not mistaken, you're leading me into Matthew 6 at this very moment.

A Craftsman screwdriver placed in inventory achieves nothing and is meaningless. A stick with a handle that achieves no end contact with the screw would be meaningless. Unless the Craftsman screw driver is good for something, it is good for nothing. Unless the Christian is aimed and driven to a goal which it is a joy to obtain, it becomes largely without meaning.

Excuse me if I am way off track. If so, please elaborate.

[Billy Bob Jenkins]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Matthew 5:43-8
Jesus said, You, therefore, must be perfect. This word is often used in Greek in a very special way. It has nothing to do with what we might call abstract, philosophical, metaphysical perfection. A victim which is fit for a sacrifice to God, that is a victim which is without blemish, is teleios. A man who has reached his full-grown stature is teleios as distinct from a half-grown youth. A student who has reached a mature knowledge of a subject is teleios as opposed to a learner who is just beginning, and who as yet has no grasp of things.



To put it another way, the Greek idea of perfection is functional. A thing is perfect if fully realizes the purpose for which it was planned, designed and made. In point of fact, that meaning is involved in the derivation of the word. Teleios is the adjective formed from the noun telos. Telos means an end, a purpose, an aim, a goal. A thing is teleios if it achieves the purpose for which it is planned; human beings are perfect if they achieve the purpose for which they were created and sent into the world.

Indeed, so we are "perfect" when we do God's will. And God's will is made clear in the rest of the KJV Bible.

The thing is, there is no need to have the Bible interpreted by experts. It is quite sufficient to read it oneself and take it the way it is put to you, which is literally. If God had meant only theologians to understand His word, so that these theologians would be the gatekeepers of Heaven, with the power to send men to Hell by withholding their wisdom, what sort of God would that be? Certainly not a benevolent one.

On the other hand, it is quite alright that lazy illiterate bums be reliant on others for knowledge of salvation, because they deserve to burn in Hell.

So how are we to know what God considers perfection? By reference to the rest of the Bible. We know that this merely functional perfection which refers to fulfilling God's plan, and actual complete perfection are identical, because Christ tells us that the commission of the tiniest sin is tantamount to committing the most heinous sin. So we are designed by God in hopes that we should not sin at all.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

[Levi Jones]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Levi,

I'd like to share with you a page from a study guide.

Exactly! Instead of reading the words, read about what the words say. You're well on your way.

I had lost my internet connection for an hour so to kill time I typed it out. There seems to be a lot of emphasis placed on the Greek word teleios given the length of commentary. Here's the page, please feel free to add anything. I don't really see where any of this really contradicts what has been shared:

Matthew 5:43-8
Jesus said, You, therefore, must be perfect. This word is often used in Greek in a very special way. It has nothing to do with what we might call abstract, philosophical, metaphysical perfection. A victim which is fit for a sacrifice to God, that is a victim which is without blemish, is teleios. A man who has reached his full-grown stature is teleios as distinct from a half-grown youth. A student who has reached a mature knowledge of a subject is teleios as opposed to a learner who is just beginning, and who as yet has no grasp of things.

To put it another way, the Greek idea of perfection is functional. A thing is perfect if fully realizes the purpose for which it was planned, designed and made. In point of fact, that meaning is involved in the derivation of the word. Teleios is the adjective formed from the noun telos. Telos means an end, a purpose, an aim, a goal. A thing is teleios if it achieves the purpose for which it is planned; human beings are perfect if they achieve the purpose for which they were created and sent into the world.

Thayer's lexicon defines Telos as:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
a) consummate human integrity and virtue
b) of men
1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

Now, is your source saying that in Matthew 5:48 God is not actually perfect?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Jesus is saying we should be fully grown as God is?

Let us take a very simply analogy. Suppose in my house there is a loose screw, and I want to tighten and adjust this screw. I go out and I buy a screwdriver. I find that the screwdriver exactly fits the grip of my hand; it is neither too large nor too small, too rough nor too smooth. I lay the screwdriver on the slot of the screw and the screw is fixed. In the Greek sense, and especially in the NT sense, that screwdriver is teleios, because it exactly fulfilled the purpose for which I desired and bought it.

This is horrible. I already showed how this line of reasoning does not work in my original sermon. If Jesus was a perfect tabernacle, Jesus also exhorts us toward perfection.

In the old creation story in the RSV translation, we find God saying: ‘Let us make man in our image after our likeness’ (Genesis 1:26).

Amen! The earth was created in six days! Glory!

Human beings were created to be like God.

And then we sinned even though we did not have knowledge of good and evil. Later in the chapter, God kills everyone but what could fit on Noah's boat because humanity's very nature was evil.

Brother, you're not telling me anything I don't know!

The characteristic of God is this universal benevolence

Of course it isn't. That's just crazy talk.

God doesn't listen to the prayers of sinners.

The great characteristic of God is love to saint and to sinner alike. No matter what we do to him, God seeks nothing but our highest good.

I think it's fairly clear this study guide is fit for kindling now. God does not love everyone. In fact, He curses those who oppose Him even across generations.

Thy foes might hate, despise, revile,
Thy friends unfaithful prove;
Unwearied in forgiveness still,
Thy heart could only love.

That's pretty good, but I have a song for you. I think it is much better, don't you?

3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.
4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.
13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the Lord; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
15 Let them be before the Lord continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.

It is the whole teaching of the Bible that we attain our humanity only by becoming Godlike.

This is the first thing he said that makes sense.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Look at this atheist demon spreading the false gospel of "logic." How can he sleep at night?

[Levi Jones]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

And also, Shimmy.

Your fluffy bunny liberal Christian appeals to a distinctly Greek meaning of the term "perfect". What language did Jesus speak? Are you saying the original language of the gospels was Greek?

How does he know the actual gist of what Jesus is quoted as saying in Greek probably translated from Aramaic eventually into English better than all of the Th.D.'s; Ph.D.'s, Masters of Theology and etc.?

Are the modern translations somehow more accurate when they substitute "perfect" for "mature" selectively? They are somehow more in tune with Jesus than people were say 400 years ago when the KJV was first translated.

I would be fascinated to know these things, but you don't know, do you? I would have to ask the writer of your "study guide" wouldn't I?