[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

You have not read one post where the Pastors have pointed out that the Genesis day is specifically designated as dawn to dusk. You just stick your head in the sand and go "I can't hear you"

Even if it was a day is a thousand years, it would not work out to the billions of years that evolutionists claim. It would be 7,000 years. Or are you going to twist that around to make it fit what you believe as well?

These were time periods, from evening to morning,meaning start to finish. These creative 'days' had no time period( number of years) connected with them. The idea of different years representing a 'day' , means the days can be any length of time to accomplish the work for that day.
The years mentioned in the bible as a day for a year, and a day for 1,000 years are used in different circumstances. we have talked about Adam, in that he was to die in the 'day' he eat from the tree, he lived for 930 years, so he died in that day. So in that case a 'day' was a 1,000 years.

Also in Genesis 1:1 the creation of the universe ( including earth) was accomplished before the first creative day on the earth. It could have been a billion years old.
The science and the creation account of the bible do not conflict. In a time when man thought the earth was flat, the bible says the circle of the earth. How did the writer know that? It was because he wrote down as he was borne along by Holy Spirit. The bible is inspired. Not by mans thoughts or thinking.

[Bogdana Alkeav]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

The bible told us that sign for the end of this systems there will be great upheavals. Earth quakes in one place after another,many wars, pestilences, the attitudes of people will back etc.

So, it is just a vague, non-prediction. Like me saying someone, at some point in time, somewhere in the world, will be murdered in some way for some reason. That's probably true, but that's hardly a prophecy. The truth is there have been great unheavals, earthquakes, wars, pestilences, etc. for all of human history. In many ways in fact, life is a lot more comfortable today.

According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_natural_disasters Eight of the biggest natural disasters in human history happened before the modern age.

Around people 1.5 million people died in floods in China in 1931.

Another million died in floods in 1887.

830,000 died in an earthquake in 1556.

500,000 died in a cyclone in Bangladesh in 1970.

300,000 died in a cyclone in India in 1839.

250,000 died in an earthquake in Turkey in 526.

400,000 died in an earthquake in 1976.

234,117 died in an earthquake in 1920.

The only modern disasters that even get close to this are the Indian Ocean Tsunami in 2004, and the Haiti earthquake in 2010. And even in these events, the numbers of dead were smaller than these other events.

In a lot of the other earthquakes that have been in the news in recent years, there have actually been relatively few deaths compared to these major disasters. The number of earthquakes hasn't increased. Only the amount of news coverage about them.

Wars? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rmed_conflicts

The wars we have today do not even begin to compare to the wars of the past. The biggest wars in history were the following:

World War II (1939-1945): 40 million dead
An Shi Rebellion (755-763): 33 million dead
Mongol Conquests (1207-1472): 30 million dead
Qing Dynasty Conquest of the Ming Dynasty (1616-1662): 25 million dead
Taiping Rebellion (1851-1864): 20 million dead
World War I (1914-1918): 50 million dead
Conquests of Timur (1369-1405): 15 million dead
Dungan Revolt (1862-1877): 8 million dead
Russian Civil War (1917-1921): 5 million dead

The only modern war that even begins to compare to these numbers in the Second Congo War from 1998 to 2003. And it is less than all of the other ones. (And don't forget, there are much more people in the world today, so you would think there should be more dying in wars. But the reverse is true.)

Pestilence? Again, people are much healthier nowadays. Health epidemics are tiny compared to the past. Here are the deadliest health epidemics of all time:

Plague of Justinian (541-542): 100 million dead
Black Death (1338-1351): 100 million dead
1918 flu pandemic: 75 million dead
Antonine Plague (165-180): 5 million dead
Asian flu (1957-1958): 2 million dead
Third Cholera Pandemic (1852-1860): 1 million dead
Russian flu (1889-1890): 1 million dead
Hong Kong flu (1968-1969): 1 million dead
Sixth Cholera Pandemic (1899-1923): 800,000 dead

The only modern epidemic to kill that many people is the HIV/AIDS pandemic. But far less people are dying from diseases nowadays.

Are the scientists, part of that? Also more and more people are not getting involved with God any more.

And yet the life expectancy keeps on rising.

[True Disciple]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

These were time periods, from evening to morning,meaning start to finish. These creative 'days' had no time period( number of years) connected with them.
The idea of different years representing a 'day' , means the days can be any length of time to accomplish the work for that day.
The years mentioned in the bible as a day for a year, and a day for 1,000 years are used in different circumstances. we have talked about Adam, in that he was to die in the 'day' he eat from the tree, he lived for 930 years, so he died in that day. So in that case a 'day' was a 1,000 years.

Friend, now you are being willfully ignorant. Exodus 20:10-11 disproves this, I have proven that. Ignoring our rebukes is not going to prove your argument.

Also in Genesis 1:1 the creation of the universe ( including earth) was accomplished before the first creative day on the earth. It could have been a billion years old.

Utterly ridiculous. Genesis 1 says "And the evening and the morning were the first day," exactly the same words God uses after the other days. Genesis always lists a few creative events, and then concludes with this sentence. It is not different on the first day. This means that all creative events in Genesis 1-5 happened on the first day.

The science and the creation account of the bible do not conflict.

Yes, they do. Stop telling lies, friend. We explained why, and ignoring anything that doesn't suit your erroneous, unbiblical worldviews isn't going to salvage your argument in any way.

In a time when man thought the earth was flat, the bible says the circle of the earth. How did the writer know that? It was because he wrote down as he was borne along by Holy Spirit. The bible is inspired. Not by mans thoughts or thinking.

Friend, this Verse doesn't prove in any way that the Earth would be round. Read this thread, where I prove conclusively that a flat-earth cosmology is the only acceptable one for a True Christian(tm).

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

So, it is just a vague, non-prediction. Like me saying someone, at some point in time, somewhere in the world, will be murdered in some way for some reason. That's probably true, but that's hardly a prophecy. The truth is there have been great unheavals, earthquakes, wars, pestilences, etc. for all of human history. In many ways in fact, life is a lot more comfortable today.

According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_natural_disasters Eight of the biggest natural disasters in human history happened before the modern age.

Around people 1.5 million people died in floods in China in 1931.

Another million died in floods in 1887.

830,000 died in an earthquake in 1556.

500,000 died in a cyclone in Bangladesh in 1970.

300,000 died in a cyclone in India in 1839.

250,000 died in an earthquake in Turkey in 526.

400,000 died in an earthquake in 1976.

234,117 died in an earthquake in 1920.

The only modern disasters that even get close to this are the Indian Ocean Tsunami in 2004, and the Haiti earthquake in 2010. And even in these events, the numbers of dead were smaller than these other events.

In a lot of the other earthquakes that have been in the news in recent years, there have actually been relatively few deaths compared to these major disasters. The number of earthquakes hasn't increased. Only the amount of news coverage about them.

Wars? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rmed_conflicts

The wars we have today do not even begin to compare to the wars of the past. The biggest wars in history were the following:

World War II (1939-1945): 40 million dead
An Shi Rebellion (755-763): 33 million dead
Mongol Conquests (1207-1472): 30 million dead
Qing Dynasty Conquest of the Ming Dynasty (1616-1662): 25 million dead
Taiping Rebellion (1851-1864): 20 million dead
World War I (1914-1918): 50 million dead
Conquests of Timur (1369-1405): 15 million dead
Dungan Revolt (1862-1877): 8 million dead
Russian Civil War (1917-1921): 5 million dead

The only modern war that even begins to compare to these numbers in the Second Congo War from 1998 to 2003. And it is less than all of the other ones. (And don't forget, there are much more people in the world today, so you would think there should be more dying in wars. But the reverse is true.)

Pestilence? Again, people are much healthier nowadays. Health epidemics are tiny compared to the past. Here are the deadliest health epidemics of all time:

Plague of Justinian (541-542): 100 million dead
Black Death (1338-1351): 100 million dead
1918 flu pandemic: 75 million dead
Antonine Plague (165-180): 5 million dead
Asian flu (1957-1958): 2 million dead
Third Cholera Pandemic (1852-1860): 1 million dead
Russian flu (1889-1890): 1 million dead
Hong Kong flu (1968-1969): 1 million dead
Sixth Cholera Pandemic (1899-1923): 800,000 dead

The only modern epidemic to kill that many people is the HIV/AIDS pandemic. But far less people are dying from diseases nowadays.



And yet the life expectancy keeps on rising.

For you then, it must fell pretty good, the world is going along better than in the past, so things are great.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Exodus 20:10-11:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Why do you consistently ignore this? If the days in Genesis weren't literal days, then why should we take one literal day of rest after six literal days of labor? Or does your Sabbath only start 5 billion years from now?

I guess I thought this was obvious. Sorry about that.
God is not under a solar day like man is. He isn't even under days of the week. What is a year for God? Man has a year, it depends on our sun. We divide that up into weeks and months. God is not bound by our solar time. For God, time is symbolic, and he uses our time, so that we can understand. But he is not limited, by our physical earth or sun.

[BelieverInGod]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I guess I thought this was obvious. Sorry about that.
God is not under a solar day like man is. He isn't even under days of the week. What is a year for God? Man has a year, it depends on our sun. We divide that up into weeks and months. God is not bound by our solar time. For God, time is symbolic, and he uses our time, so that we can understand. But he is not limited, by our physical earth or sun.

So lets try a different tactic here. Why are you so special that you are the only one who "REALLY" knows what God means? After all, if I was an almighty being, I would say what I mean and mean what I say. The Bible tells us that God means what he says and says what he means, but somehow God has told you differently.

Who are you that you're so special?

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I am starting to get rumblings about the understanding I have on the bible.
So I'm probably out staying my welcome.
So I will not bother you people any more.
I enjoyed our talks, and I hope the best for you all.
Even you Bogdana, (The scientists do not have the answer.)

I will check the posts for a little bit, but I probably have said enough.
Thanks
epi

[BelieverInGod]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I am starting to get rumblings about the understanding I have on the bible.
So I'm probably out staying my welcome.
So I will not bother you people any more.
I enjoyed our talks, and I hope the best for you all.
Even you Bogdana, (The scientists do not have the answer.)

I will check the posts for a little bit, but I probably have said enough.
Thanks
epi

I see you refuse to answer my question. I assume that means that you admit you're just making it up as you go along.

Why don't you come clean and tell us why you're really here.

[Bogdana Alkeav]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

For you then, it must fell pretty good, the world is going along better than in the past, so things are great.

Just trying to stop your Chicken Little act "The sky is falling, the sky is falling! It's the end times! The world has never been this evil!"

When in fact every generation for 2000 years has claimed it was the end times, has said that the world had never been worse, and that they saw the signs of the Bible coming true in their day. But no, I'm sure YOU must be the first one that was right.

[True Disciple]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I guess I thought this was obvious. Sorry about that.
God is not under a solar day like man is. He isn't even under days of the week. What is a year for God? Man has a year, it depends on our sun. We divide that up into weeks and months. God is not bound by our solar time. For God, time is symbolic, and he uses our time, so that we can understand. But he is not limited, by our physical earth or sun.

Friend, again you are just repeating your arguments, while I have addressed and rebuked them.

I know that, with God, a day can be thousand years. But in the case of Genesis 1, we can be sure that it isn't. You reply to Exodus 20:10-11, but you do not answer the argument based on this Verse. I will just repeat this argument here:

Exodus 20:10-11:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

If the days in Genesis weren't literal days, then why should we take one literal day of rest after six literal days of labor?

Anyway, it says that God blessed the "Sabbath Day" (definitely a literal day) because He rested on the seventh day. So the seventh day was definitely a day, and so must the other ones therefore have been.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Friend, again you are just repeating your arguments, while I have addressed and rebuked them.

I know that, with God, a day can be thousand years. But in the case of Genesis 1, we can be sure that it isn't. You reply to Exodus 20:10-11, but you do not answer the argument based on this Verse. I will just repeat this argument here:

Exodus 20:10-11:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

If the days in Genesis weren't literal days, then why should we take one literal day of rest after six literal days of labor?

Anyway, it says that God blessed the "Sabbath Day" (definitely a literal day) because He rested on the seventh day. So the seventh day was definitely a day, and so must the other ones therefore have been.

Because this seems very important to you I thought I would try one more time with this.

Though I am not sure of the scientists dating methods into history , there is one way that seems accurate. And that is the speed of light. (1)*Light from the Andromeda nebula can be seen on a clear night in the northern hemisphere. It takes about 2,000,000 years for that light to reach the earth, indicating that the universe must be at least millions of years old. (2)*End products of radioactive decay in rocks in the earth testify that some rock formations have been undisturbed for billions of years.
Genesis 1:3-31 is not discussing the original creation of matter or of the heavenly bodies. It describes the preparation of the already existing earth for human habitation. This included creation of the basic kinds of vegetation, marine life, flying creatures, land animals, and the first human pair. All of this is said to have been done within a period of six “days.” However, the Hebrew word translated “day” has a variety of meanings, including ‘a long time; the time covering an extraordinary event.’ (Old Testament Word Studies, Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1978, W. Wilson, p. 109) The term used allows for the thought that each “day” could have been thousands of years in length, or millions.

Also Gods rest day started after the creation of Adam. It is now 6,000 years or so from that time , and there still is the millennium ( 1,000 years) to go. This is all in God's rest 'day'. So that means Gods rest 'day' is a least 7,000 years long.
For man's rest 'day' is a 24 hr period of time.
Also the Sabbath was given to the Jews in Exodus, and Jesus fulfilled the law, and since that time, man is not under the Sabbath requirement any more.

The bible and the science are in harmony, there is no contradiction. Science actually proves the bible correct. Though I do think the scientists have helped man understand many things that the bible doesn't go into. The bible was never intended to be a science book.But is still scientifically accurate.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Because this seems very important to you I thought I would try one more time with this.

Though I am not sure of the scientists dating methods into history , there is one way that seems accurate. And that is the speed of light. (1)*Light from the Andromeda nebula can be seen on a clear night in the northern hemisphere. It takes about 2,000,000 years for that light to reach the earth, indicating that the universe must be at least millions of years old. (2)*End products of radioactive decay in rocks in the earth testify that some rock formations have been undisturbed for billions of years.

Oh, the starlight problem, that's easy!

http://www.conservapedia.com/Starlight_problem

There is no conflict with the description in Genesis, which says, "let there be light, and there was light." It doesn't say, "let there be light, and there was darkness that light later reached."



The observation that many stars are millions of light years away is one of distance, not time.



Some creationists have proposed that the light we see from stars more than 6,000 light years away was not emitted by those stars, but was created 'in transit' by God. Some question why we would see an image of a star exploding if the explosion did not actually occur, but the finest artistic design is often illusory.


Dr. John Hartnett, a creationist physicist, spurred by Humphreys' model, has proposed an alternative time dilation model, by theorizing the Earth was in a time-dilation field during the first few days of creation, from Earth's point of view, while billions of years passed for the rest of the universe. According to the Bible, God "stretched out"[15] the heavens (space), and this movement during creation week caused time to travel faster for those objects, in accordance with Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, adding to the time dilation caused by gravity, per Humphreys, in accordance with Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.[16]

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Oh, the starlight problem, that's easy!

http://www.conservapedia.com/Starlight_problem

There is no conflict with the description in Genesis, which says, "let there be light, and there was light." It doesn't say, "let there be light, and there was darkness that light later reached."



The observation that many stars are millions of light years away is one of distance, not time.



Some creationists have proposed that the light we see from stars more than 6,000 light years away was not emitted by those stars, but was created 'in transit' by God. Some question why we would see an image of a star exploding if the explosion did not actually occur, but the finest artistic design is often illusory.


Dr. John Hartnett, a creationist physicist, spurred by Humphreys' model, has proposed an alternative time dilation model, by theorizing the Earth was in a time-dilation field during the first few days of creation, from Earth's point of view, while billions of years passed for the rest of the universe. According to the Bible, God "stretched out"[15] the heavens (space), and this movement during creation week caused time to travel faster for those objects, in accordance with Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, adding to the time dilation caused by gravity, per Humphreys, in accordance with Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.[16]

On the star light problem is not so easy. If you say it is a distance problem then, where the material in the universe started from , to where it is now, takes time. how much time? (It is only a theory just like the scientists have theories. )
There is something else, to consider. Also the countless generations, of life of animals for example, you would need these 1,000s of generations to happen in a day or two (24 hrs) before they died out. ( yet each animal would live say 15 years.). Also there have been geological , happenings, like ice ages, continents moving etc.
God has used the natural laws, to do miracles , with . The flood took 40 days ( 24hr days) to cause the flood and a year for the waters to subside.
Then the bible makes a point of telling us not to be ignorant, that with God a day is a 1,000 years. What is the point of that? Or that all the creative days were one 'day'.

Genesis 2:1-7 (King James Version)

Genesis 2

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

This is lumping all of creation into one 'day'

The creative days were periods of time.

Also God does not after to adhere to a solar day, of 24 hrs.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

On the star light problem is not so easy. If you say it is a distance problem then, where the material in the universe started from , to where it is now, takes time. how much time? (It is only a theory just like the scientists have theories. )
There is something else, to consider. Also the countless generations, of life of animals for example, you would need these 1,000s of generations to happen in a day or two (24 hrs) before they died out. ( yet each animal would live say 15 years.). Also there have been geological , happenings, like ice ages, continents moving etc.
God has used the natural laws, to do miracles , with . The flood took 40 days ( 24hr days) to cause the flood and a year for the waters to subside.
Then the bible makes a point of telling us not to be ignorant, that with God a day is a 1,000 years. What is the point of that? Or that all the creative days were one 'day'.

Oh, so you are selling your soul to the scientists and ignoring the Bible? Well that's your choice then. Don't say I didn't warn you when you end up in hell, believing like that.

Does Distant Starlight Prove the Universe Is Old?


Many big bang supporters consider this to be an excellent argument against the biblical timescale. But when we examine this argument carefully, we will see that it does not work. The universe is very big and contains galaxies that are very far away, but that does not mean that the universe must be billions of years old.


Any attempt to scientifically estimate the age of something will necessarily involve a number of assumptions. These can be assumptions about the starting conditions, constancy of rates, contamination of the system, and many others. If even one of these assumptions is wrong, so is the age estimate. Sometimes an incorrect worldview is to blame when people make faulty assumptions. The distant starlight argument involves several assumptions that are questionable—any one of which makes the argument unsound. Let’s examine a few of these assumptions.


The Constancy of the Speed of Light


It is usually assumed that the speed of light is constant with time.2 At today’s rate, it takes light (in a vacuum) about one year to cover a distance of 6 trillion miles. But has this always been so? If we incorrectly assume that the rate has always been today’s rate, we would end up estimating an age that is much older than the true age. But some people have proposed that light was much quicker in the past. If so, light could traverse the universe in only a fraction of the time it would take today. Some creation scientists believe that this is the answer to the problem of distant starlight in a young universe.


The Assumption of Rigidity of Time


Many people assume that time flows at the same rate in all conditions. At first, this seems like a very reasonable assumption. But, in fact, this assumption is false. And there are a few different ways in which the nonrigid nature of time could allow distant starlight to reach earth within the biblical timescale.


The Assumption of Naturalism


It is perfectly acceptable for us to ask, “Did God use natural processes to get the starlight to earth in the biblical timescale? And if so, what is the mechanism?” But if no natural mechanism is apparent, this cannot be used as evidence against supernatural creation. So, the unbeliever is engaged in a subtle form of circular reasoning when he uses the assumption of naturalism to argue that distant starlight disproves the biblical timescale.

As creation scientists research possible solutions to the distant starlight problem, we should also remember the body of evidence that is consistent with the youth of the universe. We see rotating spiral galaxies that cannot last multiple billions of years because they would be twisted-up beyond recognition. We see multitudes of hot blue stars, which even secular astronomers would agree cannot last billions of years.8 In our own solar system we see disintegrating comets and decaying magnetic fields that cannot last billions of years; and there is evidence that other solar systems have these things as well. Of course, such arguments also involve assumptions about the past. That is why, ultimately, the only way to know about the past for certain is to have a reliable historic record written by an eyewitness. That is exactly what we have in the Bible.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Oh, so you are selling your soul to the scientists and ignoring the Bible? Well that's your choice then. Don't say I didn't warn you when you end up in hell, believing like that.

Since you mentioned this a few times, about Hell I will answer that.

But first. First of all there is nothing wrong with science. Science is not a threat to the bible. Or is it Satanic. In the old days, many religious leaders, persecuted , ones that tried to understand how things worked.
But in reality, God is the greatest scientist. He set up the laws of gravity, also physics, chemistry, astronomy, biology etc. He also gave us the interest in exploration, and in finding out how all the things we see were made and put together. Because the scientists interpret the science they found may be in contrast what the bible says. So in the way you are right. Scientists make assumptions.
But the same is true about the bible. There are many Christian religions, many of them saying different things. So many are assuming different ideas to the same book. So how do you find out which is correct?
It's not correct to bury your head in the sand. Even God wants for us to test the scriptures, he wants you to prove it to yourself.

Romans 12:2 (King James Version)

2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This proof comes from the scriptures and the creation itself.

So if the science disproved creation , then there would be a problem. Then it would be hard to say the bible or God, is true.
But if you look into the science, it also proves a creator. ( though the interpretation of some scientists , contradicts creation) It's an effect by Satan to divert people from God. Many in the world today, are diverted.

If you look at the bible as a big jigsaw puzzle, all the pieces have to fit,to get the whole picture. Just as in a jigsaw puzzle other parts of the puzzle help you to understand where to put other pieces. That is how the bible interprets itself.
So God has made point of telling us that a 'Day' can mean many different time lengths , and is even used as an unspecified length of time, that means we can't say 24 hrs is meant every time.
But the point that life on earth has lasted thousands and thousand of generations and even died out, tells us the earth has been here a long time, by our standards of time. Also earth's geological events would have taken a long time. Certainly more than 7, 24 days.

Now on Hell. There is no place as Hell in the bible. It is just the common grave of mankind. There is no place of torment, there is no hell-fire.