[Sacred Heart]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

"This" refers to what Jesus told the Apostles to do - take the bread and eat it. When you gather for a meal, remember Jesus' sacrifice for you.

I can see your interpretation of "this" as you do not believe that Jesus could perform this miracle and convert the bread into his flesh.

However, simply because I believe what actually happened there to be different, I can't agree with you. There's not really much more to be said on that matter.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

When Mary had a bun in the oven, she didn't literally have a bun in the oven.

Lol. That was actually a good play on words. Haha.

Remy doesn't need your permission to move on. You're a party-line hypocrite who accuses the Pharisees of taking grandiose titles, but when high Catholic officials arrogate far more, and far more grandiose, titles unto themselves you brush it off as "there has to be a head of the Church." So why won't you admit it so we can move on, Sacred Hypocrite?

I believe that yes Jesus Christ forbid the use of these titles ONLY for the purpose of humility and to avoid likeness to the pharisees.

You have already agreed that Jesus simply wanted his apostles to be humble.
You haven't supported your argument that because of this title the Priest have become superior and prideful like the Pharisees.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

I'm making an assumption about what I already KNOW?

I think you read too fast for proper comprehension.
I said you make an assumption based off what you already know about humans.

This means that you assume that Jesus was indeed not a cracker. You use this as your basis to assume that Jesus did not change the bread into his body through transubstantiation when, indeed, that is what the Bible would seem to say.

Are you really as stupid as you sound? As I KNOW that Jesus was not a Bread Golem with fermented grape juice for blood, I KNOW that the bread and wine mentioned were not actual pieces of His body. Or perhaps you think all humans are made of bread and wine?

Matthew 1:1-16 tells us that Jesus's physical ancestry. Abraham descended from Noah, as all humans did. So please, spare your pathetic attempts at what I hope is humour. Surely you aren't really as stupid as you sound? You are kidding, right?

Of course I do not believe Jesus to be a walking cracker. I do this because I interpret Scripture. Just like you. Just like all your brothers. You interpret "this is my body" to be metaphorical. If "what it says is what it says" as you just told me, then "this was his body". Because that is the simple, literal way to read scripture which you are so akin to.

I understand that you don't really think I'm interpreting. You are simply insisting as such because you have lost the debate and are reaching. It's typical of pride-filled blowhearts who can't admit when they are wrong. Just so you know, you're making a fool of yourself. But you know that...

You said, "There can be nothing more straightforward than following the Bible to the letter. We don't interpret." and that is what I have challenged. However, I have already asked if you are willing to admit this very minor thing and move on to more important issues and you of course refused. I am not the one stuck on this issue.

"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." - Matthew 26:26-28

He spoke to the apostles. Not to anyone else.

But then he said "do this in memory of me."

That was an easy one...

Oh, and you were saying that the Catholic church has never changed its interpretation of the Bible... So, do they still torture, maim and kill those they deem heretics in Vatican City? Do they stone homosexuals and disobeidient children? Is slavery legal there? Do tell?

Why don't you give me the actual Scripture that we "changed" our opinions on?

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

blah, blah, were are the altar boys? blah

Why don't you give me the actual Scripture that we "changed" our opinions on?

You've never read any of The Bible, haven't you?

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

Why don't you give me the actual Scripture that we "changed" our opinions on?

For centuries the Catholic church was big on executing people, which they advocated from the Bible.

Today, the Church is anti-death penalty.

For centuries the Catholic church supported slavery, which it advocated from the Bible.

Today, the Church is anti-slavery.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

Lol. That was actually a good play on words. Haha.


I believe that yes Jesus Christ forbid the use of these titles ONLY for the purpose of humility and to avoid likeness to the pharisees.

You have already agreed that Jesus simply wanted his apostles to be humble.
You haven't supported your argument that because of this title the Priest have become superior and prideful like the Pharisees.

When Cornelius greeted Peter, he bowed before him. Peter told him not to do this, as he was a mere man, and humble.

It is now customary for people to prostate in front of the Pope and kiss his ring. If they were following the humble example of Peter, why not tell people not to do this?

Also, I don't believe Peter lived in a big palace and were huge pointy hats.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

For centuries the Catholic church was big on executing people, which they advocated from the Bible.

Today, the Church is anti-death penalty.

For centuries the Catholic church supported slavery, which it advocated from the Bible.

Today, the Church is anti-slavery.

First you do need to show me a reference saying which verses the Church used and how it said they were justified.

Then, explain why this matters as it was not a doctrinal teaching of the Church.

[Remy Lebeau]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

Listen carefully, you imbred retard. Jesus was NOT a Townhouse Cracker!!!! I don't assume anything. I KNOW. You CAN-NOT make an assumption about something you KNOW!!!. By viture of KNOWING there is no room for assumptions. Assumptions are based in ignorance.

End of (that idiotic) Discussion!!!

But then he said "do this in memory of me."

That was an easy one...

:rolleye: Who was He telling to "do this in memory of me"?

Why don't you give me the actual Scripture that we "changed" our opinions on?

The book of Leviticus... um, 1 Timothy 6, Titus 2 for starters.

This is the third time I've brought this up: DOES THE VATICAN, A SO-CALLED SOVERIEGN STATE, IMPLIMENT GOD'S LAWS? What are you afraid of, sinner? Seems like an easy enough question.

[WWJDnow]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

It is now customary for people to prostate in front of the Pope and kiss his ring.

Then they start kissing his ass.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

First you do need to show me a reference saying which verses the Church used and how it said they were justified.

Then, explain why this matters as it was not a doctrinal teaching of the Church.

On Slavery:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3804.htm

(Since you hate reading so much, I'll post the section pertaining to our discussion, but please follow the link to make sure I am not taking this out of context.)

"Canon 3

If any one shall teach a slave, under pretext of piety, to despise his master and to run away from his service, and not to serve his own master with good-will and all honour, let him be anathema.
This canon is framed in accordance with the doctrine of the Apostle, in 1 Timothy 6:1. Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And again the same Apostle teaches his disciple Titus that he should exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; not purloining, but showing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. Titus 2:9-10 These texts are likewise cited by Balsamon and Zonaras."


This is from the Synod of Gangra, a Catholic church council held in 340. According to New Advent, a synod is: "A general term for ecclesiastical gatherings under hierarchical authority, for the discussion and decision of matters relating to faith, morals, or discipline" http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14388a.htm . The decisions of the Synod of Gangra were upheld by the Council of Chalcedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Gangra , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholi...y_Christianity), considered by Catholics the fourth Ecumenical Council (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03555a.htm). According to New Advent, an Ecumenical Council is:

1. Ecumenical Councils are those to which the bishops, and others entitled to vote, are convoked from the whole world (oikoumene) under the presidency of the pope or his legates, and the decrees of which, having received papal confirmation, bind all Christians. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04423f.htm

The same decree is repeated in a Council under Pope Martin I in 650 AD! (http://churchslavery.blogspot.com/)

So to answer your first question, the church used 1 Timothy and Titus to justify slavery. But wait, there's more.

How about this fact from another Ecumenical Council, the Third Lateran Council (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09017b.htm)

24. Cruel avarice has so seized the hearts of some that though they glory in the name of Christians they provide the Saracens with arms and wood for helmets, and become their equals or even their superiors in wickedness and supply them with arms and necessaries to attack Christians. There are even some who for gain act as captains or pilots in galleys or Saracen pirate vessels. Therefore we declare that such persons should be cut off from the communion of the church and be excommunicated for their wickedness, that catholic princes and civil magistrates should confiscate their possessions, and that if they are captured they should become the slaves of their captors. We order that throughout the churches of maritime cities frequent and solemn excommunication should be pronounced against them. Let those also be under excommunication who dare to rob Romans or other Christians who sail for trade or other honourable purposes. Let those also who in the vilest avarice presume to rob shipwrecked Christians, whom by the rule of faith they are bound to help, know that they are excommunicated unless they return the stolen property.

The legitimacy of slavery was later incorporated into the Decretum Gratiani ("a collection of Canon law compiled and written in the twelfth century as a legal textbook by a jurist (perhaps) named Gratian, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decretum_Gratiani ) which was incorporated into the Corpus Juris Canonici (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04391a.htm), that is: "(lit. 'Body of Canon Law') is the collection of significant sources of canon law of the Catholic Church that was applicable to the universal Church or specifically to Churches of the Latin Rite or Eastern Rites. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Juris_Canonici)

More info here: http://churchslavery.blogspot.com/

The ninth Council of Toledo in 655 AD (a provincial synod of bishops of Carthaginiensis ,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Council_of_Toledo) imposed slavery on the children of priests. On the councils of Toledo: "From the fifth to the seventh century, about thirty synods, variously counted, were held at Toledo in what would come to be part of Spain." "As nearly one hundred early canons of Toledo found a place in the Decretum Gratiani, they exerted an important influence on the development of ecclesiastical law." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Councils_of_Toledo)

The Synod of Melfi under Pope Urban II in 1089 imposed slavery on the wives of priests: "disabilities of all kinds were enacted and as far as possible enforced against the wives and children of ecclesiastics. Their offspring were declared to be of servile condition, debarred from sacred orders, and, in particular, incapable of succeeding to their fathers' benefices. The earliest decree in which the children were declared to be slaves, the property of the Church, and never to be enfranchised, seems to have been a canon of the Synod of Pavia in 1018. Similar penalties were promulgated later on against the wives and concubines (see the Synod of Melfi, 1189, can. xii), who by the very fact of their unlawful connection with a subdeacon or clerk of higher rank became liable to be seized as slaves" (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm)

In 1455, Pope Nicholas V wrote the following in an Apostolic Constitution:

"We (therefore) weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso -- to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery,..."

An apostolic constitution: "is the highest level of decree issued by the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_constitution) Full-text and background of this decree can be found here: http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal...-pontifex.html

In 1866, the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith issued this statement:

"Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons.... It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given."

The CDF "is the oldest of the nine congregations of the Roman Curia." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_for_the_Doctr ine_of_the_Faith). The Roman Curia is "Strictly speaking, the ensemble of departments or ministries which assist the sovereign pontiff in the government of the Universal Church" (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13147a.htm)

1800 +: The Roman Catholic church's Sacred Congregation of the Index continued to place many anti-slavery tracts on their Index of Forbidden Books in order to prevent the public from reading them. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav2.htm)

This is a pretty short and simple timeline of Catholic flip-flopping on the issues of slavery (though mostly supporting it): http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav4.htm

Interesting, no? Here's some other material to brush up on Roman Catholicism and slavery:

http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5378&Itemid=48

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z0Z8hKPPcsYC&pg=PA97&dq=aquinas+slavery&lr=&as_brr=3&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=aquinas%20slavery&f=false

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sfytrGYF-1cC&pg=PA62&dq=aquinas+slavery&as_brr=3&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=aquinas%20slavery&f=false

http://www.catholicregister.org/content/view/1832/842/

http://www.slaverysite.com/Body/morality.htm

Now, it seems to me that some of this just might count as doctrinal teaching of the church, but in case it doesn't meet your standards (I'm betting it won't. I'm sure if I posted the measly examples floating around of Catholics opposing slavery you would loudly proclaim it as infallible...) here's why it matters: Jesus said quite clearly you shall know a tree by its fruit.

Maybe I'll get around to death penalty too when I have some spare time.

[Lola Handcock]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

May I ask a question
1 why do the catherliks make Saints out of their dead Popes ?
2 Why do they make saints out of some of their dead nuns ?
3 Why do they pray to the saints ,they worship them ?
sure looks to me like the worship false gods

1. Psalm 4:2
   
   How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame ? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods ?
2. Psalm 40:4
   
   Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods.
3. Jeremiah 13:25
4. This is your lot, the portion I have decreed for you," declares the LORD, "because you have forgotten me and trusted in false gods.
5. Jeremiah 16:19
6. O LORD, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.

I know I posted this before ,I never received an answer so thought I would run it by this catherlick
Pastor Ezekiel have patience with me if I am repetitive

[satan's False Word]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

May I ask a question
1 why do the catherliks make Saints out of their dead Popes ?
2 Why do they make saints out of some of their dead nuns ?
3 Why do they pray to the saints ,they worship them ?
sure looks to me like the worship false gods

1. Psalm 4:2
   
   How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame ? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods ?
2. Psalm 40:4
   
   Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods.
3. Jeremiah 13:25
4. This is your lot, the portion I have decreed for you," declares the LORD, "because you have forgotten me and trusted in false gods.
5. Jeremiah 16:19
6. O LORD, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.

I know I posted this before ,I never received an answer so thought I would run it by this catherlick
Pastor Ezekiel have patience with me if I am repetitive

Miss Lola, I've been meaning to ask you a few questions myself, if you would indulge me?

1. Why do you not conform to the Godly language written in the Bible?
2. Do you have spell check on your personal computer? and because I already know you're not the sharpest tool in God's shed, I mean spell as in grammar, not spell as in witchcraft.
3. Why do you mention Pastor Zeke in every single post you make? Do you have a (not so) secret crush on him?
4. Why do you search words on www.biblegateway.com and post random scriptures to make what clearly is not a good enough point on its own?

God Bless you Miss Lola!

[WWJDnow]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

Miss Lola, I've been meaning to ask you a few questions myself, if you would indulge me?

1. Why do you not conform to the Godly language written in the Bible?
2. Do you have spell check on your personal computer? and because I already know you're not the sharpest tool in God's shed, I mean spell as in grammar, not spell as in witchcraft.
3. Why do you mention Pastor Zeke in every single post you make? Do you have a (not so) secret crush on him?
4. Why do you search words on www.biblegateway.com and post random scriptures to make what clearly is not a good enough point on its own?

Miss Lola doesn't have to answer to a Satanist such as you. Your attack on her spelling merely shows that you are an anti-Southern bigot. Besides, just because someone hasn't been as well educated as you have doesn't mean she's stupid. By focusing on these things, you're just trying to tear us down without adding anything positive. It's not going to work.

Pastor Zeke and Miss Lola have a very special and purely platonic relationship. You wouldn't understand that, because the only relationship you would enjoy is one with Marilyn Manson's poodle.

Nobody ever has to apologize for posting God's Word. Ever.

[satan's False Word]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

Miss Lola doesn't have to answer to a Satanist such as you. Your attack on her spelling merely shows that you are an anti-Southern bigot. Besides, just because someone hasn't been as well educated as you have doesn't mean she's stupid. By focusing on these things, you're just trying to tear us down without adding anything positive. It's not going to work.

Pastor Zeke and Miss Lola have a very special and purely platonic relationship. You wouldn't understand that, because the only relationship you would enjoy is one with Marilyn Manson's poodle.

Nobody ever has to apologize for posting God's Word. Ever.

Why thank you Mr. Lola!

I am not a satanist! You think the avatar and user-name LBC chose for me makes me a satanist... well, that makes you an idiot!

Being southern does make her stupid! Being illiterate does make her stupid! By accepting her into your midst you are tearing yourself down without adding ANYTHING! PERIOD!

Mis-quoting and random searches not pertaining to a point merely to impress the small minded elders of this so called church is often infractioned on this here good forum, so what the hell are you on about boy?

[Remy Lebeau]

Re: Um... Why is my religion listed as a cult?

4. Why do you search words on www.biblegateway.com and post random scriptures to make what clearly is not a good enough point on its own?

She probably learned that from you.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...