[BelieverInGod]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Huh? When did I say we pray to Mary? I said ask her to pray for us. And it's easy. While praying I'll say "Mary, pray for me. I'm going through a rough time."

Also, I like that you provided a link to Hail Mary. Did you read it? Because right there it says:

"pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death."

And like I have also said several times we ask Saints to pray for us just like Mary. Example: Saint Jude is the Patron Saint of hopeless causes so I'd say "Saint Jude, my friend is really sick. There's not a good chance he'll make it. Please, Saint Jude, pray for Chris."

The prayers you reference are all in that same manner.

As I said, how do you ask her? Do you phone her? Write her a letter? No, you pray to her. Just because you ask her to take it to the next level doesn't mean it isn't a prayer.

As for St. Jude. I thought you had to say the magic spell prayer just right.

Forgive me for this

Most holy Apostle, St. Jude, faithful servant and friend of Jesus, the Church honors and invokes you universally, as the patron of difficult cases, of things almost despaired of, Pray for me, I am so helpless and alone.
Intercede with God for me that He bring visible and speedy help where help is almost despaired of. Come to my assistance in this great need that I may receive the consolation and help of heaven in all my necessities, tribulations, and sufferings, particularly -(make your request here) - and that I may praise God with you and all the saints forever. I promise, O Blessed St. Jude, to be ever mindful of this great favor granted me by God and to always honor you as my special and powerful patron, and to gratefully encourage devotion to you. Amen

May the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus be adored, and loved in all the tabernacles until the end of time. Amen.
May the most Sacred Heart of Jesus be praised and glorified now and forever. Amen
St. Jude pray for us and hear our prayers. Amen.

Blessed be the Sacred Heart of Jesus
Blessed be the Immaculate Heart of Mary
Blessed be St. Jude Thaddeus, in all the world and for all Eternity.

Pray the Our Father and the Hail Mary

Sounds like witchcraft to me, and you know what the Bible says to do with witches.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Oh right. What would I know? I'm just a born Catholic who's been Catholic my entire life.

Seriously, it's my religion. I think I know a little more about it than you people. Also toAbove poster) We do not kneel to the images we kneel to God.

I was raised a Catholic. Notice the ex-Mary Worshiper award I have

And yes, when I was a Catholic, I was routinely told to bow down in front of statues.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

When the memorials in Washington D.C. were created, such as those for Lincoln and Jefferson, statues were created in honor of them. The statues did not take the place of man whom they honored. For instance, if I were to create a statue of Heathen Basher, I would sincerely hope that the Landover community would cease to acknowledge the living Heathen Basher and instead direct their attention toward the stone recreation made in his honor. In the same way, creating a statue of any saint, pope, or even Christ, does not redirect any honor or attention from that whom it was made to honor. Rather, the saint would be honored to be the object of a man's time and talent.

Similarly, if a man were to approach the grave erected in memorial of a lost family member, he is in no way replacing the lost family member with the headstone marking their burial place. Rather, this headstone gives the man a connection, if you will, to his lost family member. This is similar to seeking communion with a saint before their statue. No honor is directed at the statue, but entirely directed to the saint with the statue merely offering a visual aid for the believer.

Sacred Heart

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

When the memorials in Washington D.C. were created, such as those for Lincoln and Jefferson, statues were created in honor of them. The statues did not take the place of man whom they honored. For instance, if I were to create a statue of Heathen Basher, I would sincerely hope that the Landover community would cease to acknowledge the living Heathen Basher and instead direct their attention toward the stone recreation made in his honor. In the same way, creating a statue of any saint, pope, or even Christ, does not redirect any honor or attention from that whom it was made to honor. Rather, the saint would be honored to be the object of a man's time and talent.

If a statue were made of me, I would personally see to it that it would be destroyed.

Exodus 20:4, Deuteronomy 5:8 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath.
Deuteronomy 4:16-18 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the simultude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth.
Deuteronomy 4:23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget ... and mke you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden thee.
Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman.
2 Kings 18:3-4 He [Hezekiah] did that which was right in the sight of the LORD....
He ... brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made.

Similarly, if a man were to approach the grave erected in memorial of a lost family member, he is in no way replacing the lost family member with the headstone marking their burial place. Rather, this headstone gives the man a connection, if you will, to his lost family member. This is similar to seeking communion with a saint before their statue. No honor is directed at the statue, but entirely directed to the saint with the statue merely offering a visual aid for the believer.

Sacred Heart

I have heard plenty of stories from my Portuguese Catholic relatives that tell tales of the healing properties of statues, that believe statues will protect them or bring them good luck, that tell of stories of statues talking to people and going on pilgrimages to see famous statues and bowing down and kissing its feet. They have long parades holding up statues which people flock to and wave handkerchiefs to as if saluting hello to the statue.

I'm sure Aaron and the Israelites thought their honor was entirely directed to God with the statue merely offering a visual aid for the believer. After all, in Exodus 32 the people never say they have abandoned God, they merely complain they have lost His presence while Moses is away. When they make the statue, they even say:

Exodus 32:4
'Israel,' the people shouted, 'here is your God who brought you up out of Egypt!'

In Exodus 32:5, Aaron even refers to the statue as Yahweh. So it wasn't that they had turned to another god, it was that they made a statue to depict.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

When the memorials in Washington D.C. were created, such as those for Lincoln and Jefferson, statues were created in honor of them.

Do you understand the diffrence between a memorial and idolatry?

Nobody bows down to the Lincoln memorial. You Papist dogs can't wait to bow down to your demonic stauary.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

I have heard plenty of stories from my Portuguese Catholic relatives that tell tales of the healing properties of statues, that believe statues will protect them or bring them good luck, that tell of stories of statues talking to people

Does this shock you?

Many objects gain healing properties in scripture from association with saintly people.

2 Kings 13:20-21 And Eliseus died, and they buried him. And the rovers from Moab came into the land the same year. And some that were burying a man, saw the rovers, and cast the body into the sepulcher of Eliseus. And when it had touched the bones of Eliseus, the man came to life, and stood upon his feet.

Acts 5:15-16 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that when Peter came, his shadow at least, might overshadow any of them, and they might be delivered from their infirmities. And there came also together to Jerusalem a multitude out of the neighboring cities, bringing sick persons, bringing sick persons, and such as were troubled with unclean spirits; who were all healed.

Acts 19:11-12 And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles. So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked spirits went out of them.

If God chooses to work healing through a shrine dedicated to a saint who is part of the Body of Christ, why argue?

and going on pilgrimages to see famous statues and bowing down and kissing its feet. They have long parades holding up statues which people flock to and wave handkerchiefs to as if saluting hello to the statue.

Have you ever seen someone embrace the picture of a lost family member? They do not do so because they are adoring the photograph, but because in their hearts they are expressing love to the lost family member.

I'm sure Aaron and the Israelites thought their honor was entirely directed to God with the statue merely offering a visual aid for the believer. After all, in Exodus 32 the people never say they have abandoned God, they merely complain they have lost His presence while Moses is away. When they make the statue, they even say:

Exodus 32:4
'Israel,' the people shouted, 'here is your God who brought you up out of Egypt!'

In Exodus 32:5, Aaron even refers to the statue as Yahweh. So it wasn't that they had turned to another god, it was that they made a statue to depict.

I must answer this with another question, so that we might better understand the Lords commandment.

If all graven images were banned, why would the lord request these graven images in the passages of Exodus 25:18–20 and 1 Chr. 28:18–19? Would this not make God a hypocrite?

[Levi Jones]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Would this not make God a hypocrite?

As that is impossible, no. There can be no contradictions in the Holy Word.

Also Exodus 32. They couldn't call God by His name could they?

[BelieverInGod]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

First of all, I've never been a catholic, and only been in a catholic church a handful of times in my life.

That being said, the Exodus quote you gave us were about the cheribums on the mercy seat. Where exactly does it tell anyone to bow down to these statues, or to worship them? Does anyone kiss their feet? No it was simply instructions on how God wanted the Ark of the Covenant made. The same thing with your 1 Chronicles quote, it's instructions for creating the cheribums that covered the Ark again.

A graven image is something that you bow down to, that you pray to, bow down to, or worship. I have animal mounts (hunting) in my home, it doesn't make me some sort of animalistic pagan.

[Malaysia_Christian]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

I'm happy that when I was unsaved 3 years ago, I was led to a Baptist church.

Romans Catholism = Communism.

Vatican wants it all. They want your money, your virginity, and your faith. Total submisison...

[Brad Crassley]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

I'm happy that when I was unsaved 3 years ago, I was led to a Baptist church.

Romans Catholism = Communism.

Vatican wants it all. They want your money, your virginity, and your faith. Total submisison...

Me too. I think Baptist churches are great. Especially Southern Baptist. Those hell fire and brimstone preachers are what I'm all about. They all tend to talk with funny accents too.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Because in these cases it was God choosing to work a miracle. In your case it is you lying about miracles

The Catholic Church has no doctrine requiring you to believe in all the miracles claimed by individuals from various locations or statues or shrines. There is plenty of room for skeptics like yourself in the Church

caused by objects

Not by the object. But by the grace of God working His healing through the object.

If I saw a person having a conversation with a photograph of a loved one, I would call up the nearest mental hospital.

I did not mention conversation. This was in response to at attack on kissing statues. It shows that, though the physical recipient of the action is the inanimate object, that the love of the individual expressing the emotion is intended for the actual person in spirit.

Does this mean God is a hypocrite for banning killing in the ten commandments, but later ordering mass killings? Of course not. Things are okay only if God orders them.

Yes that would make God a hypocrite. It would make him act in a way that is not his nature, and therefore impossible. God and sin are opposite. Just like a flame cannot emit darkness, God cannot sin. Any killing performed by God or ordered by God, is not murder or in violation of his commandment. It is an act of his Perfect Justice.

Therefore, by ordering the construction of statues, we can know for certain that it is not the statue itself that is forbidden, but the actual worship of the inanimate object. For he is a jealous God.

And God approved the making of an object for healing, but later revealed the dangers of such thinking when the people started worshiping it instead of Him and so ordered it destroyed.

Numbers 21:8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole.
2 Kings 18:3-4 He [Hezekiah] did that which was right in the sight of the LORD....
He ... brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made. This would seem to be one of those cases of God temporarily approving of one thing, only to later ban it. Like the whole divorce issue.

Yes this is correct. We see again that is not the actual construction of the statue that God as forbidden, but the worship of it.

Sacred Heart

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Romans Catholism = Communism.

Interesting idea. Would you like to elaborate?

Vatican wants it all. They want your money Lev.27:30, your virginity Titus 2:4-5, Matthew 19:12, Matthew 19:12 , and your faith Galatians 2:15–16. Total submisison Matt. 19:21...

I feel the Vatican demonstrates the Word of God well. What is your perspective?

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

F
That being said, the Exodus quote you gave us were about the cheribums on the mercy seat. Where exactly does it tell anyone to bow down to these statues, or to worship them? Does anyone kiss their feet? No it was simply instructions on how God wanted the Ark of the Covenant made. The same thing with your 1 Chronicles quote, it's instructions for creating the cheribums that covered the Ark again.

Exactly. God commanded the construction of "graven images." If we are to believe that God has forbidden all graven images, and not just those that become idols (As in the one created in Numbers 21), then God is reduced to a hypocrite. An impossible situation.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that God forbids the worship of other Gods and idols, not the creation all graven images.

A graven image is something that you bow down to, that you pray to, bow down to, or worship. I have animal mounts (hunting) in my home, it doesn't make me some sort of animalistic pagan.

This is incorrect. The term "graven" means "carved" or "engraved." But it true that the only images God is speaking of are those that become idols for the people. For he is a jealous God.

[exMormon]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Me too. I think Baptist churches are great. Especially Southern Baptist. Those hell fire and brimstone preachers are what I'm all about. They all tend to talk with funny accents too.

We are not Southern Baptists. We are an independent, fundamentalist Bible believing Baptist Church.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Exactly. God commanded the construction of "graven images." If we are to believe that God has forbidden all graven images, and not just those that become idols (As in the one created in Numbers 21), then God is reduced to a hypocrite. An impossible situation.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that God forbids the worship of other Gods and idols, not the creation all graven images.



This is incorrect. The term "graven" means "carved" or "engraved." But it true that the only images God is speaking of are those that become idols for the people. For he is a jealous God.

But you do worship those statues. Enjoy hell.