[Levi Jones]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

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God Bless.

I see whatshername is back to posting those walls of tl:dr.

Papists.. So funny. So predictable.

[James Dewitt]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

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CATHOLIC TRADITION - Call priests father, e.g., Father McKinley.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

WHAT THE BIBLE ALSO SAYS -
1 Cor 4:15 "I became your father in Christ Jesus through the Gospel."
Matt 19:19 "honor your father and mother."
Acts 7:2 - St. Stephen calls the Jewish leaders "fathers"
Acts 22:1 - St Paul calls Jews in Jerusalem "fathers"
Rom 4:16 "Abraham...is the father of all of us"
1 Tim 1:2 "Timothy...my true child in faith"
1 John 2:13 "I am writing to you, fathers"

I guess St. Paul, St Luke, St. John, St. Matthew are all papists.

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CATHOLIC TRADITION - Forbidding the priesthood to marry.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

1) It is devilish to forbid God's people to marry when He has given marriage to be received with thanksgiving.

1 Timothy
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2) Peter was married (remember the pope is supposedly continuing the apostolic line through Peter).

Matthew
8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

Mark
1:30 But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever, and anon they tell him of her.

Luke
4:38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.

3) Paul, a great apostle, remained single; however he made it very clear that he could marry if he wanted to.

1 Corinthians
9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

WHAT THE BIBLE ALSO SAYS -
Matt 19:12 "Some are incapable of marriage...renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom." - Christ himself praises celibacy
1 Cor 7:7-8 - St. Paul encourages the Corinthians to stay celibate as he is.

What you either don't realize or intentionally omit is that there ARE married priests in the Catholic Church. Celibacy is a "discipline" in the Roman Rite, there are many Eastern Rite Catholics who's priests can be married. Not to mention the are exceptions in the Roman Rite when certain Protestant ministers convert and after study are ordained.

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CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary never had other children after the Lord Jesus. A perpetual virgin.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary and Joseph indeed had children. They were the Lord's half brothers and sisters for their father was Joseph and mother was Mary.

Matthew
13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Mark
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

WHAT THE BIBLE ALSO SAYS -
Two of these four "brothers" of Jesus (James and Joseph) are sons of another Mary, who is significantly called "the other Mary" (Matt 27:61, Matt 28:1). Compare Matt 27:56 with John 19:25-27. None of the brothers of Jesus is ever called "son of Mary." Jesus entrusts Mary to St John, not another sibling. This is unthinkable, if Jesus had other brothers. The way Jesus' "brothers" advise (John 7:3-4) and rebuke him (Mark 3:21) is inconsistent with actions of younger brothers. Acts 1:14 shows Mary praying with Jesus' "brothers" but then she goes home with St John (John 19:27); again, this is highly unlikely in the Jewish culture of her time. "Brother" can mean something other than "blood brother". See 1 Cor 15:6 when Jesus appears to 500 "brothers" at once.

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CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the mother of God.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary is the mother of the earthly Jesus, not God. Jesus pre- existed from everlasting as God (see John 1:1). When He came to redeem mankind, He laid aside His glory and was made like unto sinful man so that He could take our punishment (Hebrew 2:9). God has no mother. He has lived from everlasting which means He had no beginning.

Isaiah
43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. [If Mary gave birth to God, she'd be God.]
Psalm
93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Micah
5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler [Jesus] in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Philippians
2:6 Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

SOMETHING TO CONSIDER -
Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. Your statement that Mary is not the Mother of God, repeats the 5th century heresy of Nestorianism.

Ask yourself these questions: Was Jesus Christ God? Was he God when he was born? Was he God when he was conceived?

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

To avoid this conclusion, you seem to assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion, as I said above, reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.

The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary, the humble handmaid of the Lord:

Irenaeus
"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
"[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]" (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).
Gregory the Wonderworker
"For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David" (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).
"It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, ‘Hail, full of grace!’" (ibid., 2).

Peter of Alexandria
"They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs" (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).

"We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God" (Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D. 324]).
Methodius
"While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).
"Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid., 14).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness" (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).
Ephraim the Syrian
"Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God" (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).

Athanasius
"The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God" (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
"Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Ambrose of Milan
"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?" (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).
Gregory of Nazianz
"If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead" (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome
"As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing" (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).
"Do not marvel at the novelty of the thing, if a Virgin gives birth to God" (Commentaries on Isaiah 3:7:15 [A.D. 409]).
Theodore of Mopsuestia
"When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation" (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).

Cyril of Alexandria
"I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God?" (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).
"This expression, however, ‘the Word was made flesh’ [John 1:14], can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was. This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin ‘the Mother of God,’ not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word, being personally united, is said to be born according to the flesh" (First Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).
"And since the holy Virgin corporeally brought forth God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh" (Third Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).
"If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema" (ibid.).

John Cassian
"Now, you heretic, you say (whoever you are who deny that God was born of the Virgin), that Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, cannot be called the Mother of God, but the Mother only of Christ and not of God—for no one, you say, gives birth to one older than herself. And concerning this utterly stupid argument . . . let us prove by divine testimonies both that Christ is God and that Mary is the Mother of God" (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D. 429]).
"You cannot then help admitting that the grace comes from God. It is God, then, who has given it. But it has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God" (ibid., 2:5).
Council of Ephesus
"We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her" (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]).
Vincent of Lerins
"Nestorius, whose disease is of an opposite kind, while pretending that he holds two distinct substances in Christ, brings in of a sudden two persons, and with unheard-of wickedness would have two sons of God, twoThe Notebooks 12[35] [A.D. 434]).


Is see no "stud" in your Bible Study. REASONED responses would be appreciated. Your gross misinterpretation of Scripture leads me to conclude with this:

2 Peter 1:20 - "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation."

and

2 Peter 3:15-16 - "And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures."

God Bless.

Let me remind you of our Lords words on worshiping false GODS

1.Psalm 4:2
How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame ? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods ?

2.Psalm 40:4
Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods.

3.Jeremiah 13:25
This is your lot, the portion I have decreed for you," declares the LORD, "because you have forgotten me and trusted in false gods.

4.Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.

5.Amos 2:4
This is what the LORD says: "For three sins of Judah, even for four, I will not turn back {my wrath}. Because they have rejected the law of the LORD and have not kept his decrees, because they have been led astray by false gods, the gods their ancestors followed,

6.Romans 3:7
Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"



When you pray to Mary,it is worship of a false GOD. When you make a Saint out of a mortal man , and then worship him, ITS A SIN


You best get right with Jesus!

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

When you pray to Mary,it is worship of a false GOD.

Could you please explain why communion with the saints is worship? Indeed, as I speak to you now, you and I are in "communion", however I assure you that this brief message is not worship, and neither is the intercession of the Saints.

When you make a Saint out of a mortal man , and then worship him, ITS A SIN

Again, you have lost me James. Which mortal man have I worshiped?

[James Dewitt]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Could you please explain why communion with the saints is worship? Indeed, as I speak to you now, you and I are in "communion", however I assure you that this brief message is not worship, and neither is the intercession of the Saints.



Again, you have lost me James. Which mortal man have I worshiped?

Do you cathreliks or do you not have prayers to Mary the mother of Jesus?
Do you or do you cathreliks have shrines that Glorify Mary? Need proof, I can help with that.

Was Mary the mother of Jesus a mortal?

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Do you cathreliks or do you not have prayers to Mary the mother of Jesus?

No, we offer prayer to God alone friend. If there is some specific Catholic prayer that has troubled you, bring it to the table here and I would be happy to answer any questions.

Do you or do you cathreliks have shrines that Glorify Mary? Need proof, I can help with that.

"Glorify" is quite a strong word. Catholics do not "glorify" Mary or any of the Saints. Venerate, respect, admire... these would be more appropriate.

I see you are from New York. What do you think of the Statue of Liberty? And going a bit south, what do you think of the Lincoln Memorial? What about the Washington? Jefferson?

Would you say that these statues were wrought to worship a false deity, or to simply honor someone?

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

By the way, I like your signature

One of my favorite verses.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

[...]What do you think of the Statue of Liberty? And going a bit south, what do you think of the Lincoln Memorial? What about the Washington? Jefferson?

Would you say that these statues were wrought to worship a false deity, or to simply honor someone?

Dear Lord, do you offer up prayers to any statue now? Light candles to Lincoln? Mutter 10 "Hail Washingtons"

Or do you have to tell your priest to do that for you?

Have you seen the array of stains, blotches and blobs that your lot find mystical? And you say you're Christian?

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Dear Lord, do you offer up prayers to any statue now?

Of course not.

Light candles to Lincoln? Mutter 10 "Hail Washingtons"

Why, Ezekiel, do you consider candles or the "Hail Mary" to be worship?

Have you seen the array of stains, blotches and blobs that your lot find mystical? And you say you're Christian?

The "lot" of which you speak, cannot be the body of the Catholic Church as a whole. The Catholic Church does not "test the spirits" of every slice of french toast that looks like Jesus. Rather, certain individual members of the Church believe them as a sign, but only on their own personal level. And what would be so wrong with this, should it end up strengthening their faith? One could just as easily pass this off as a coincidence as one might pass off a successful surgery, saying that it was by the hands of the physician and not of God. But the real question is why does it matter? The only result is a stronger faith in the believer.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

No, we offer prayer to God alone friend. If there is some specific Catholic prayer that has troubled you, bring it to the table here and I would be happy to answer any questions.

[mnnelson90]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

I would like to point out that the bible says that you are born into sin and can never escape it. And it is only through Christ that You can be saved. You'll never be able to 'never sin again'

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

The Bible says no such thing:

Romans 5:14 Death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.

3 John 11 He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

[Samuel Coleridge]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Could you please explain why communion with the saints is worship?

Though I am a fan of your conviction in Catholicism and you are surely destined for the Pearly Gates with the Landoverites, I can't help but have a slight issue with your interpretation of saints.

Doesn't the Word say that the Saints are living people and not the dead?

I would be glad to post the scriptures for you that point toward that conclusion upon your request.

Your humble servant in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Sam

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

I see veneration and profound respect. Not worship.

Let me introduce you to a couple other Catholic prayers:

Glory be to the FATHER, and to the SON, and to the HOLY SPIRIT. As it was in the beginning, is now and forever shall be, world without end. Amen.

Our FATHER. Who art in heaven, hallowed be THY name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For the kingdom, the power and the GLORY are YOURS, now and forever. Amen.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Though I am a fan of your conviction in Catholicism and you are surely destined for the Pearly Gates with the Landoverites, I can't help but have a slight issue with your interpretation of saints.

Doesn't the Word say that the Saints are living people and not the dead?

I would be glad to post the scriptures for you that point toward that conclusion upon your request.

Your humble servant in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Sam

Oh yes, that is absolutely correct.

Mark 12:26-27 "As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, [the] God of Isaac, and [the] God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled."

It is for this reason that the communion of Saints is made a reality. Catholics assert that the soul is eternal, and that a commitment made to Christ to "pray for our brothers and sisters" is still active in the heavenly kingdom.

In Christ,

Sacred Heart

[James Dewitt]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

And this one.

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.


Its sure looks like you are worshiping Mary to me!