[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

sorry for my ignorance but none of your quotes have dates may you please provide me the dates becuase then how do i know how old these quotes are?

"but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once." (15:27-28)

so let it be to me that dog that the woman thought she was.

You're joking, right?

Has anyone mentioned to you that this is not a debate forum, papist?

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

well i read your link and it did not show me nothing dating before the reformation. so what are you trying to say i must of not seen it can you then please show me the direct quote?

Here. Quotes heralding the position of Baptists (being against infant baptism) that define Baptist churches throughout the ages. http://www.christian-history.org/infant-baptism.html

However, Justin Martyr does give a reason for baptism that absolutely precludes infant baptism, and he says that the church in Rome received it from the apostles. This quote is from approximately A.D. 155:

And for [water baptism] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed. (Justin, First Apology 61)

Here, Justin specifically contrasts water baptism with the lack of choice that we had as children, and he says that the apostles taught that this was the very reason for water baptism.



Well, there we have two quotes to work from. One, from Irenaeus around the year 185, is almost certainly pro-infant baptism, and the other, from Tertullian around 210, addresses infant baptism directly and disagrees with it.
Irenaeus, c. A.D. 185:

He came to save all through means of Himself—all … who through Him are born again to God—infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men. He therefore passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, thus sanctifying infants; a child for children, thus sanctifying those who are of this age, being at the same time made to them an example of piety, righteousness, and submission … (Against Heresies II:22:4)

Note here that the term "born again" was synonymous with baptism to early Christians. That really didn't change until the time of the pietists in the 17th century. (Use the "Contact Me" button to the left if you can find a reliable, accurate reference to an original pre-17th century document that separates the term "born again" from baptism. I'd be happy to see it.)



Thus, by mentioning infants being born again, that's an almost certain reference to infant baptism from Irenaeus. I'm really never ready to make definitive statements, however, by inference. This is clear inference, but it's inference nonetheless.
Tertullian, c. A.D. 210: No inference here; he's very clear:

According to the circumstances and disposition, and even age, of each individual, the delay of baptism is preferable; principally, however, in the case of little children. … The Lord does indeed say, "Do not forbid them to come to me." Let them come, then, while they are growing up! Let them “come” while they are learning, while they are learning where to come to! Let them become Christians when they have become able to know Christ. Why does the innocent period of life hasten to the remission of sins? … Let them know how to ask for salvation, that you may seem to have given "to him that asks." (On Baptism 18)

Well, that's clear. Tertullian was against infant baptism.

[Moses.]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

You're joking, right?

Has anyone mentioned to you that this is not a debate forum, papist?

um actualy im not joking, ok i might spear a secound and teach you how to quote a historical document.

example:
"Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Cephas, and on this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it"
Tatian the Syrian. (170 AD). The Diatesseron 23
Available: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/100223.htm


Can you see how it has the year makes a very big difference.

Anyways i went to the trouble to see who you mentioned as i have no idea who they are don't think they were important enough for me to remember.

John Tyler Christian (1854–1925)
Alexander Campbell (12 September 1788 – 4 March 1866)
Charles Haddon (C.H.) Spurgeon (June 19, 1834 – January 31, 1892)

so the real question is are you joking? i said 1000 years before you have given me the people dates back the earliest 1788 and thats when he was born more than a thousand year gaping hole in your history! how can any of this be reliable. Be honest with your self your not fooling no one except your self.


Hathen_Basher thank you for your post with historical evidence let see what these church fathers say oh by the way your chart includes the year 2000 so how can that be an historical document?

However, Justin Martyr does give a reason for baptism that absolutely precludes infant baptism, and he says that the church in Rome received it from the apostles. This quote is from approximately A.D. 155:

And for [water baptism] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed. (Justin, First Apology 61)

Here, Justin specifically contrasts water baptism with the lack of choice that we had as children, and he says that the apostles taught that this was the very reason for water baptism.



Well, there we have two quotes to work from. One, from Irenaeus around the year 185, is almost certainly pro-infant baptism, and the other, from Tertullian around 210, addresses infant baptism directly and disagrees with it.
Irenaeus, c. A.D. 185:

He came to save all through means of Himself—all … who through Him are born again to God—infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men. He therefore passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, thus sanctifying infants; a child for children, thus sanctifying those who are of this age, being at the same time made to them an example of piety, righteousness, and submission … (Against Heresies II:22:4)

Note here that the term "born again" was synonymous with baptism to early Christians. That really didn't change until the time of the pietists in the 17th century. (Use the "Contact Me" button to the left if you can find a reliable, accurate reference to an original pre-17th century document that separates the term "born again" from baptism. I'd be happy to see it.)



Thus, by mentioning infants being born again, that's an almost certain reference to infant baptism from Irenaeus. I'm really never ready to make definitive statements, however, by inference. This is clear inference, but it's inference nonetheless.

Tertullian, c. A.D. 210: No inference here; he's very clear:

According to the circumstances and disposition, and even age, of each individual, the delay of baptism is preferable; principally, however, in the case of little children. … The Lord does indeed say, "Do not forbid them to come to me." Let them come, then, while they are growing up! Let them “come” while they are learning, while they are learning where to come to! Let them become Christians when they have become able to know Christ. Why does the innocent period of life hasten to the remission of sins? … Let them know how to ask for salvation, that you may seem to have given "to him that asks." (On Baptism 18)

on Peter as The Churchs head.

Tertullian


"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).

"[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

on Peter being in Rome!

Irenaeus


"Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church" (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the succession of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3, 3, 2).

"The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the letter to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anacletus, and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. ... To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded . . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherius. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us" (ibid., 3, 3, 3).

how clear is all of this but i guess Christs Parable can also apply here "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand"

Jesus have Mercy on them for they no not what they do.

[Samuel Coleridge]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

um actualy im not joking, ok i might spear a secound and teach you how to quote a historical document.

example:
"Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Cephas, and on this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it"
Tatian the Syrian. (170 AD). The Diatesseron 23
Available: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/100223.htm

To be fair, if you are going to consider that actually canonical, you have opened up an entire can or worms. That means that the entire Nag Hamadi. The Gospel of Thomas in particular that is believed to be older than John.

Jesus declares James the Just of Jerusalem to be the heir of the church. The very James Paul whines about in Galatians. The very James who is seen as the leader in Acts 15.

(12) The disciples said to Jesus : "We know that You will leave from us. Who is to be our leader ?" Jesus said to them : "From where You stand now, You are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

The rest of your argument is fairly well invalidated at this point.

[Moses.]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

To be fair, if you are going to consider that actually canonical, you have opened up an entire can or worms. That means that the entire Nag Hamadi. The Gospel of Thomas in particular that is believed to be older than John.

Jesus declares James the Just of Jerusalem to be the heir of the church. The very James Paul whines about in Galatians. The very James who is seen as the leader in Acts 15.

(12) The disciples said to Jesus : "We know that You will leave from us. Who is to be our leader ?" Jesus said to them : "From where You stand now, You are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

The rest of your argument is fairly well invalidated at this point.

well dont give me a gnostic Gospel, you know as much as i do the gnostic gospals where fabricated as they contradict the bible and deny the reserection of Jesus, i have not given you a Gospel but the Early church fathers depiction on what was happening during that time. i only used the same people that MR Brethen was using to say that they where against the Catholic church.

all the sources i gave u are reliable on the other hand you have the gospal of thomas saying things like #114, where Jesus says women must become male in order to get to heaven.

so i am being fair.

[Samuel Coleridge]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

all the sources i gave u are reliable on the other hand you have the gospal of thomas saying things like #114, where Jesus says women must become male in order to get to heaven.

I suppose it's no stranger than the Catholics making Mary a new fertility goddess. A new Gaia.

When Jesus says the opposite.

27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. Luke 11


29For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Luke 23

so i am being fair.

Of course you are. Your source is Catholic approved and mine isn't. It's all about what "they" decide with you guys.

[The Cantabrian]

Debunking the 'Mary worship' myth

There are many references in extreme protestant churches that catholics commit idolatory by 'worshipping Mary'. Indeed, there are many places where the term 'mary worshipper' is used as an insult.

What you need to understand is that we catholics do NOT worship Mary. To do this would be a great sin, as worship is reserved for God alone.

But the Bible tells us that Mary is 'most blessed', in Luke 1:48. This is because she was the mother of the Christ child, the mother of God. We therefore venerate and honour her, and make requests for her to intercede for us.

So does anyone here object to this?

[Mrs. Rogers]

Re: Debunking the 'Mary worship' myth

But the Bible tells us that Mary is 'most blessed', in Luke 1:48. This is because she was the mother of the Christ child, the mother of God. We therefore venerate and honour her, and make requests for her to intercede for us.

So does anyone here object to this?

Well, not really. If you want to bugger around praying to dead people then yes, by all means go ahead. Myself, I prefer to pray directly to GOD Himself. I suppose I'm just Biblical that way.

Enjoy HELL, dear.

[Levi Jones]

You are not a Christian

There are many references in extreme protestant churches that catholics commit idolatory by 'worshipping Mary'. Indeed, there are many places where the term 'mary worshipper' is used as an insult.

What you need to understand is that we catholics do NOT worship Mary. To do this would be a great sin, as worship is reserved for God alone.

But the Bible tells us that Mary is 'most blessed', in Luke 1:48. This is because she was the mother of the Christ child, the mother of God. We therefore venerate and honour her, and make requests for her to intercede for us.

So does anyone here object to this?

You wanted your alleged research material, you have found the mother lode. I'll even sign your permission slip that you made all these arguments.

[Moses.]

Re: Debunking the 'Mary worship' myth

Well, not really. If you want to bugger around praying to dead people then yes, by all means go ahead. Myself, I prefer to pray directly to GOD Himself. I suppose I'm just Biblical that way.

Enjoy HELL, dear.

Well I can start to name verses in the bible which back up this argument, but i will take anothe apporach one that i hope will open your hearts and minds. I dont know where this idea came from where if it is not in the bible explicitly then it means its totaly wrong "sola scripture", The Trinity was never mentioned in the bible only implicitly, The Church Fathers took a great while to even comprehend it and still it has its mysteries. Now Paul says "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" 2 Thess. 2:15. He goes futher on to say "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" 2 Thess. 3:6. so we don't have to prove that praying to the saints has to be only in the bible as these verses suggest. But can be based on tradition passed down from the Chuch Fathers from the time of Christ.

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Clement of Alexandria ,Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).



"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (OrigenPrayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

as this is only a small portion passed on traditions and not something that the catholic church conjured up on an random day.


Now lets look at one the of most receded prayers that there is, the Hail Mary, now our Lady appeared at Fatima in 1917 infront of a 70,000 strong crowd inwhich the mircle of the "dancing sun" appeared, the crowd did not only have devouted christians but also athiest, agnostics, Muslims and many other beleifts all had the same accounts on what happened and how there cloths were totaly dry after the danceing sun mirlce despite everyone being soaking wet prior because it was an extreamly rainy day. When the our Blessed Mother appeard she proficied certian proficeies inwhich most have come true and some still yet to come. she also asked us the pray the rosary which has the Hail Mary in it. She said to Lucia one of the three children she appeared to that it is God's will that nations look toward her in help for all the nations not hers! can't you see by you denying our Blessed Mother you are really denying Jesus open your eyes she helped in raising up our Lord Jesus Christ our God, how much more can she help out in our up bringing and guidence.

As you aremay be aware the Hail Mary prayer has the verse "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." Now Paul says I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me" Rom. 15:30. so praying for others is not something odd for a Christian.


Now there is countless of healing done by saints to the faithful and some turned faithful all through out the years with proper documentation, how does one think saints are made saints through an opinion poll? of course not!. There documented evedence of healing which doctors can no explain such as cancers totally disappearing with out any traces.

When our Blessed Mother and Jesus were at the wedding and she said to Jesus there is no wine, Jesus said, it is not yet my time. Nether-less Jesus still performed his first bible written miracle after listening to his Mother.The way i see it is asking the our Blessed Mother and the Saints to pray for you is like taking your prayer through the Prayer Motorway, and dodgeing the school zones, everyone that is loving listens to their mother. How much more have you increased your chances of your prayer being heard by asking our Blessed Mother to pray that the ultimate, the true definiation of love Jesus Christ would hear your prayer!

[Flatty10]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Nicely said!

[Mrs. Mary Whitford]

Re: Debunking the 'Mary worship' myth

When our Blessed Mother and Jesus were at the wedding and she said to Jesus there is no wine, Jesus said, it is not yet my time. Nether-less Jesus still performed his first bible written miracle after listening to his Mother.The way i see it is asking the our Blessed Mother and the Saints to pray for you is like taking your prayer through the Prayer Motorway, and dodgeing the school zones, everyone that is loving listens to their mother. How much more have you increased your chances of your prayer being heard by asking our Blessed Mother to pray that the ultimate, the true definiation of love Jesus Christ would hear your prayer!

So you're saying that if you pray directly to Jesus, He may or may not hear it so you're better off praying to a dead woman who isn't THE LORD because she hears prayers BETTER THAN CHRIST?!?

[Moses.]

Re: Debunking the 'Mary worship' myth

So you're saying that if you pray directly to Jesus, He may or may not hear it so you're better off praying to a dead woman who isn't THE LORD because she hears prayers BETTER THAN CHRIST?!?

whos prayers would Our Lord Jesus first listen too his Mothers or yours?

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Debunking the 'Mary worship' myth

whos prayers would Our Lord Jesus first listen too his Mothers or yours?

Jesus 1/3 of the Trinity and co-deity with God. That means Christ is all knowing.

Marry is what,... beyond the receptacle for the Holy Spirit to come upon (Luke 1:34)?

Do you thank the oven or the cook who baked your bread?

[Mrs. Mary Whitford]

Re: Debunking the 'Mary worship' myth

whos prayers would Our Lord Jesus first listen too his Mothers or yours?

The fact that you think JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD AND SAVIOR is constrained by time and number of prayers says A LOT about you.

("Net neutrality" may be a communist plot, but PRAYER NEUTRALITY IS NOT!)