[SecretFalcon]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Thanks plenty for this link you sent me Pastor. It helped fill in some missing gaps I had on my argument against catholicism that I've been having with a couple kids at school.

[lgabrick]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

I teach a Sunday School class to teens. Thank you for the responses Brother Temperance. I have been trying to show them why Catholics are still sinners. Now I can go in to class armed and ready to battle for Jesus!



_________________
Justin Bieber gay keep your children away from him!

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

12. Are the church's decisions ratified in heaven as well as on earth (Matthew 18:18)?

Yes.

Then you act in contrary to your doctrine of Sola Scriptura by giving extra-Biblical Authority to your Church.

I would expect your brothers at Landover to disagree with your supposition.

We teach what Jesus Himself said in Luke 11:28:
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Indeed, Mary is not Blessed merely for the reason of being the Mother of God in itself. Rather, she is Blessed for complete obedience to the Word of God, and was thereby chosen to be the Mother of God. Therefore, we see that her role as the Mother of God is resulting from her Immaculate Conception and keeping of the Word, which is what is the most important thing.

Where does 1 Timothy 3:15 do down the Bible, or set up an opposition between Church and Bible? We believe that our church is a pillar of truth because

we obey the Holy Scripture to the word, so issues of church vs Bible don't come up.

However, you say:

12. Are the church's decisions ratified in heaven as well as on earth (Matthew 18:18)?

Yes.

Which of course, would suppose that your Church possess an extra-Biblical authority, and thereby is indeed the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. You contradict yourself.

If it is the Bible that gives authority to the Church, then no authority of the Church can supersede the Authority of the Scripture. Therefore, it would be superfluous and redundant to suggest that the Church is the foundation of ANY truth, for in is unable to provide Truth that is yet unprovided by Scripture.

On the contrary, it is the Living Church which, as the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, authorizes Scripture as Truth. Scripture does not have this capacity.

Yes.

I will remember this admission from Brother Temperance that Rome is not the Whore of Babylon, as many Landovers would like to suggest.

Has nothing to do with celibacy and everything to do with preaching the Word to unsaved scum like you. You're just throwing in unrelated verses in an attempt to boost your non-existent argument.

Allow me to correct the typo:

Matthew 19:12 : When the disciples questioned Jesus about not marrying, He said "Some are incapable of marriage, because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."[/QUOTE]

That's about self-sacrifice in general. It's not specifically pro-celibacy.

Luke 18:29-30 specifically mentions giving up "wife".

Or are you also against parents and houses? When's the last time you spoke to your parents? If you haven't given up contact with your parents for the kingdom of God's sake, I don't see what right you have to demand that others should be celibate.

Some people do give up contact with their parents, friends and family. This is the foundation of Monasticism. Cloister Sisters and Monks are excellent examples.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Then you act in contrary to your doctrine of Sola Scriptura by giving extra-Biblical Authority to your Church.

SH, you are welcome as always. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the best catholic apologist I have ever run across. A truly powerful demon of Mary worship drives this one.

The truth is, there is no contradiction in giving our own church more weight in doctrinal issues. It is through our scholarship, devotion to and strict adherence to God's Word that we are able to definitively say we are right and you are not.

Indeed, Mary is not Blessed merely for the reason of being the Mother of God in itself. Rather, she is Blessed

You mean worshiped. It's on your own website in the Catechism.


Courtesy of Pastor Isaac Peters

From your own catechism:

2675 Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first "magnifies" the Lord for the "great things" he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings29 the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria: (blasphemous "Hail Mary" prayer snipped)

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40

[Thomas W]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

"4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"
- Exodus 20:4-5

This passage (especially Exodus 20:4) is important, at least to me, because this seems to extend not only to worshipping crosses (which morbidly enough is the torture rack upon which Our Savior died) but it also extends to in any way making any likeness of anything.

Making pictures is breaking one of Gods commandments, which is very tricky for anyone using a computer. I hear Linux is the way to go if you don't want to create pictures on your monitor, but I'll probably have trouble accessing this blessed forum from a Linux prompt. I should pray more often.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

SH, you are welcome as always. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the best catholic apologist I have ever run across. A truly powerful demon of Mary worship drives this one.

Haha, Levi, this is probably the closest thing to a complement I will ever receive from you. I feel compelled to thank you for it.

The truth is, there is no contradiction in giving our own church more weight in doctrinal issues. It is through our scholarship, devotion to and strict adherence to God's Word that we are able to definitively say we are right and you are not.

Brother Temperance's claim extended beyond saying "who is right and who is not":

[QUOTE=Brother Temperance;585195]
12. Are the church's decisions ratified in heaven as well as on earth (Matthew 18:18)?
Yes.[/QUOTE]

This means that the Church could make a binding decision over physical and spiritual things. This would include the forgiveness of sins, as well as the authority to authorize works as Divinely Inspired.

However, if we are to presuppose that Sacred Scripture contains every doctrine necessary for Salvation, then the only ideas that the Church could "ratify" must already be present in Sacred Scripture.

For example, let's say we have read the Bible and find it teaches the following doctrines:

<----Sola Scriptura----Sola Fide----Sola Gratia----Solo Christo----Soli Deo Gloria---->

But your Church seeks to add an extra-Biblical Doctrine, for example:

<----The Assumption of Mary---->

If you are to begin teaching this Doctrine, then you contradict one of the teachings by which you believe your Church to receive its authority, Sola Scriptura.

If you do not teach extra-Biblical Doctrine's, then the Church can make no decision that will be "bound in heaven" as all of its teachings are already found in Scripture, and therefore already bound in heaven, and no authority of the Church is necessary. The idea becomes redundant.

You mean worshiped. It's on your own website in the Catechism.


Courtesy of Pastor Isaac Peters

2675 Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first "magnifies" the Lord for the "great things" he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings29 the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.

2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria: (blasphemous "Hail Mary" prayer snipped)

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40

Either the people who wrote the Roman institution's catechism weren't true Catholics, or you need a refresher course in your own religion.

"Worship" is only found on this page stating the the Holy Spirit is worthy of it.

But does entering into Communion with the Saints mean that "worship" has been committed? If so, then we should not find any instances in the Bible where someone enters into Communion with the Saints, for they would follow strictly the adherence of worshiping the One God. But this is what we see:

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12:1)

And twenty verses later:

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, AND to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant." (Hebrews 12:22-24)

The only way to "come to" (this is in the past tense) innumerable angels, the assembly of the first-born, a judge who is God of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, AND to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant all at once is, of course, through prayer. Unless you know of some other way to "come to" all of these?

In the OT we also see an exchange of communication between Daniel and Joshua and angels.

"Joshua went up to him and asked, 'Are you one of us or of our enemies?' He replied, 'Neither. I am the captain of the host of the Lord and I have just arrived." (Joshua 5:13-14)

"He said to me, 'Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the end of time.'" (Daniel 8:17)

In both cases the angels communicate directly with Joshua and Daniel, and Joshua even communicated back. But note this:

"Angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 18:10)

"But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

If these angels are always before God, and are in fact united and one spirit with Him, then the only way that this communication is made possible is through the Communion of Saints, which is the Body of Christ, and does not entail worship.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

"4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"
- Exodus 20:4-5

This passage (especially Exodus 20:4) is important, at least to me, because this seems to extend not only to worshipping crosses (which morbidly enough is the torture rack upon which Our Savior died) but it also extends to in any way making any likeness of anything.

God commanded the construction of "graven images." If we are to believe that God has forbidden all graven images, and not just those that become idols (As in the one created in Numbers 21), then God is reduced to a hypocrite. An impossible situation.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that God forbids the worship of other Gods and idols, not the creation all graven images.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

God commanded the construction of "graven images." If we are to believe that God has forbidden all graven images, and not just those that become idols (As in the one created in Numbers 21), then God is reduced to a hypocrite. An impossible situation.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that God forbids the worship of other Gods and idols, not the creation all graven images.

So how does institutional child rape come into this?

[Thomas W]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

God commanded the construction of "graven images." If we are to believe that God has forbidden all graven images, and not just those that become idols (As in the one created in Numbers 21), then God is reduced to a hypocrite. An impossible situation.

Please don't call The Lord a hypocrite, and don't reduce Him to the same level as a man either. The Lord is of course free to do whatever He wants. His commandments just apply to us, not Him.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that God forbids the worship of other Gods and idols, not the creation all graven images.

As they appear to me, the first part is about even making these images. Would it just be about kneeling before them or serving them, we wouldn't have this separate passage that only speak about making images. Also, it says to not make "any graven image, or any likeness of anything" (et.c.). These are two separate things The Lord asks of us: Don't make graven images, and don't make any likeness of any thing. He is very elaborate about this, and it's clear that images are very sinful to The Lord, and I think it might be like child porn, where His whole creation is His child, which is then exposed and exploited for sinful pleasures, often in mocking and insulting ways.
After shutting off my computer in panic, I spent some time thinking about this, and I still think that emoticons and such are okay, as they aren't like anything seen in nature, and aren't parts of Gods direct creation.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Please don't call The Lord a hypocrite, and don't reduce Him to the same level as a man either. The Lord is of course free to do whatever He wants. His commandments just apply to us, not Him.

If He tells us to do one thing, then does another, then He is a hypocrite. This is impossible:

James 3:17 "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceful, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy."

God commanded the construction of "graven images." If we are to believe that God has forbidden all graven images, and not just those that become idols (As in the one created in Numbers 21), then God is reduced to a hypocrite. An impossible situation.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that God forbids the worship of other Gods and idols, not the creation all graven images in itself.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

So how does institutional child rape come into this?

It does not.

[Thomas W]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

If He tells us to do one thing, then does another, then He is a hypocrite. This is impossible:

James 3:17 "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceful, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy."

God commanded the construction of "graven images." If we are to believe that God has forbidden all graven images, and not just those that become idols (As in the one created in Numbers 21), then God is reduced to a hypocrite. An impossible situation.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that God forbids the worship of other Gods and idols, not the creation all graven images in itself.

First of all that quote is entirely out of context. James 3:17 speaks about wisdom residing in the hearts of man, as James 3:14 makes clear, and not about the infinite wisdom sent directly from The Lord.

Second of all, I see that you, in your insolence, think of The Lord as someone who should obey by mortal rules. It makes me sick to my stomach, but still, maybe it would help you understand if you think about the commandments not as a mutual bonding kind of deal, but as terms and conditions for the great privilege of enjoying His creation and enjoying a good afterlife. This way of seeing things is still blasphemous, because a commandment is by definition something that must be obeyed, and not a proposal you are free to consider, but at least it's closer to the truth.

Third of all, nobody likes a vain repeater.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

First of all that quote is entirely out of context. James 3:17 speaks about wisdom residing in the hearts of man, as James 3:14 makes clear, and not about the infinite wisdom sent directly from The Lord.

Let's examine this.

"Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good life let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfsih ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. This wisdom is not such as comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, devilish. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, without uncertainty or insincerity. And the harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace." (James 3:13-17 RSV)

These verses continue to address the teachers mentioned in 3:1. The teacher who claims to be wise but is controlled by "jealousy and selfish ambition" (3:14) is really a fool whose wisdom stems from the world (3:15). True wisdom transforms the mind and heart of the teacher and is manifest through a pure and peaceable life (3:17). It is a divine gift that comes down from the Father above:

"Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change." (James 1:17 RSV)

If the gift of Wisdom is "from above" (James 3:17) then it is "good" and "perfect" (James 1:17). If it is good and perfect, then it is like God, who is also good and perfect. And if it is like God, then it is a quality that He possesses. And if He possesses the gift of Wisdom, which is "first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, without uncertainty or insincerity" then He cannot act as a hypocrite.

[ALMOS7]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

i don't want to sound "rude" pastor, but Catholicism is God's true religion. You believe in Jesus Christ right? Well what he founded is called "Catholicism", the one religion that all of these other groups (lutheran, protestant, etc) formed from.

Also, priests in the RC Church do not marry and are celibate, they are models of Jesus Christ, our savior who we follow.

[Warner S. Davidson]

Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians

Also, priests in the RC Church do not marry and are celibate, they are models of Jesus Christ, our savior who we follow.

Celibate that is good news - Perhaps that will be some comfort to the Alter Boys that your Catholic Priests have raped over the centuries