[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Humoured him, did he? If the Old Testament is God's Word, then why does it say that God was actually angry, and not make any mention of the "fact" that God knew that he would not, in the end, destroy the Israelites? It never really says that God knew what was going to happen, it is only your interpretation that says so.

As a Christian you have to believe God is all knowing. Just like a Christian believes Jesus is the Son of God as part of The Trinity. If you believe otherwise you are not a Christian. Therefore as a Christian I take it as read God knew what is going to happen and I do not need it stated.

As far as God thinking in all of this, how can we possibly understand it? While we are in His image He is vastly different than us in the perspective He works on.

44835HAHAHA! Pre-stole? You're funny. More like the Christian church stole the ceremonies from Paganism, made them into Christian holidays. It's statements like that that make me wonder if you were lying when you said you take what you preach as serious as the flames of Hell.

Friend, I assure I take salvation, damnation and Scripture will the dignity they deserve.

Now friend, if we were to accept your Christian Copy theory then what would that make Christianity? Some cheesy readers notes of the religious thinking of the ancient near east. That sounds like the thinking of a monkey worshiping Atheist, not a Christian. Now if you are talking about Catholic holidays and other nonsense, yes they are ripped off pagan ceremonies. But TRUE Christian law, ceremonies and thinking; that described in The Bible. Those came from God Himself. No, you can bet your soul that Satan did things like copy the Ten Commandments and give them to the ancient Egyptians so they would show up in their Books of the Dead before God gave them to Moses, just to mock God.

I agree with your concept of angels as extensions of God. But how do you know that my God is Satan, and yours isn't? Can you really prove that Yahweh all those years ago wasn't actually Satan misleading Moses and his people?

Eh? What are you? A Cathar? If the God of the Old Testament was a false God Jesus would have said so during His earthy ministry. While He changes something Jesus makes it very clear the remainder of the Old Testament is still intact. No were does the Gospels it even suggest anything like this.

What I am trying to say is Satan is doing what God specifically wants Satan to do.

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

What is there to think about? God and His co-third of the Trinity call for hatred and intolerance. I am not so arrogant, and as self centered as you are to claim I know better than God.

Assuredly you aren’t for sanctioning evil by passive acceptance?

Did I ever claim to know better than God? I claimed to know better than the false god that appears in the Old Testament. You must know it: we all of us have an ingrained sense of morality, for example, we feel revulsion at the sight of torture (or at least, we should). It was given to us by the real God. Yet, you claim we should kill and rape and torture the "unbelievers". Justify this.

If you friend believe Godly government would fail then you friend do not believe in Christ and are not a Christian like you claim. There is no way a bunch of mere mortal men could stop the Will of God. If they could that would mean God does not exist.

History has proven that ALL theocratic regimes fall. Look at the old kingdom of Israel, it was divided and conquered and the Jews were dispersed. Perhaps you will say that God had fated it to fall. If that is true than you will also say that the new theocratic regime to come will not be fated by God to fall. Well, we shall see if it falls- none of us can tell for now. Also I do not claim to be Christian. I'm a Pagan who believes that all gods are merely aspects of one God and in the message of Jesus Christ.

Sadly I was not raised by Fundamentalists friend. I was raised by permissive, liberal, east coast elite, blue collar, union membership Catholics and as about as far from Jesus as you could get. PRAISE JESUS He sent Pastor Al to save my soul from Hell.

Tell me friend, what made you convert? Did you have a bad experience with Catholicism? Were you raped by a priest as a child? Or was it simple fear of going to hell that made you convert?

Well friend, I guess your dark master Satan loses again.

Oh, silly fundie. How many times do you have to be told: if one does not worship Satan, one does not worship Satan. One does not passively accept anything, it's not all black and white. If I claim I do not worship Satan, but secretly worship him, then I do worship Satan. If I claim to worship Satan, but secretly do not, I do not worship him but in claiming so I corrupt those around me without meaning to. But I neither claim to worship Satan, nor do so, therefore I do not worship Satan.

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

As a Christian you have to believe God is all knowing. Just like a Christian believes Jesus is the Son of God as part of The Trinity. If you believe otherwise you are not a Christian. Therefore as a Christian I take it as read God knew what is going to happen and I do not need it stated.

As far as God thinking in all of this, how can we possibly understand it? While we are in His image He is vastly different than us in the perspective He works on.

Oh, I believe God is all-knowing all right, I just don't believe your god is all-powerful or all-knowing. The episode with Moses and the golden calf proves this. God was angry. Now why should he be angry if he knew this was to come? And why did he listen to Moses' reason? Save a people from slavery, just to murder them in the desert? If your god was perfect then he wouldn't have been angry in the first place. Your definition of perfect is messed up.

Friend, I assure I take salvation, damnation and Scripture will the dignity they deserve.

Now friend, if we were to accept your Christian Copy theory then what would that make Christianity? Some cheesy readers notes of the religious thinking of the ancient near east. That sounds like the thinking of a monkey worshiping Atheist, not a Christian. Now if you are talking about Catholic holidays and other nonsense, yes they are ripped off pagan ceremonies. But TRUE Christian law, ceremonies and thinking; that described in The Bible. Those came from God Himself. No, you can bet your soul that Satan did things like copy the Ten Commandments and give them to the ancient Egyptians so they would show up in their Books of the Dead before God gave them to Moses, just to mock God.

Right. I'll believe that. Even when all the evidence points to the fact that the Jews borrowed some of the Commandments from the Egyptians. Every ancient culture in the old world was ruled by the same precepts: submission to god(s), and violence against those who oppose you. Your True Christian(TM) Israelites were no different than the rest of them. In fact, the God one worships is all dependent on culture. If, say, the Egyptians had come out on top, we'd have Osiris as Jesus right now.

Eh? What are you? A Cathar? If the God of the Old Testament was a false God Jesus would have said so during His earthy ministry. While He changes something Jesus makes it very clear the remainder of the Old Testament is still intact. No were does the Gospels it even suggest anything like this.

What I am trying to say is Satan is doing what God specifically wants Satan to do.

Even when there is nothing in the Bible that says God secretly controls Satan? Who's interpreting now? Besides that, if Jesus said that Yahweh was false, then it would be as if the government had revealed they had secretly been dealing with aliens. Firstly, every Jew there ever was would have panicked or commited suicide or converted or something. Either that or a mob would have murdered Him and He wouldn't have had a chance to die on the cross. It would have been utter chaos. And God doesn't want chaos. You see, Jesus said He had not come to make the Mosaic Law obsolete, but subtly He was undermining its foundations. The Mosaic Law said "an eye for an eye", but Jesus said "turn the other cheek". Please explain this for me.

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Oh wait, you did already explain it. But what I'm trying to say is, why should we follow the laws of a god who displays base human emotions and murders people, when his own commandments say not to murder, or be jealous of your neighbour? And Yahweh was jealous of neighbouring nations' gods. We should rather follow the example of Jesus, who only really got angry when certain heresies were committed (but certainly never damned or killed anyone for it), or when He was in severe pain.

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Oh wait, you did already explain it. But what I'm trying to say is, why should we follow the laws of a god who displays base human emotions and murders people, when his own commandments say not to murder, or be jealous of your neighbour? And Yahweh was jealous of neighbouring nations' gods. We should rather follow the example of Jesus, who only really got angry when certain heresies were committed (but certainly never damned or killed anyone for it), or when He was in severe pain.

Has it not already been explained to you that God and Jesus are one and the same?

Tell us, what religion do you follow, since you clearly hate God?

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

So God's laws in the books Leviticus and Deuteronomy are just mere "allegories"? So then what? We can rip them out of The Bible and wipe our butts on them because they are just "nice little stories about God ordering us to stone sinners, that's all".

What is an allegory and what is real is very clear in the Bible IMHO

I wasn't saying the history in the Old Testament wasn't real, I believe Yahweh actually existed and ordered the Isrealites to invade Canaan on other places, but he was not a god.

Enough of this. Do you believe that God will strike me down, as he struck many in the Old Testament, if I put him to the test? For it is written, "you shall not put the Lord your God to the test". If I pray to him to strike me down if I am wrong and you are right, will he do it?

I'm the one whose read scripture here friend. I haven't seen any evidence of that from you.

I've read a decent amount, but definitely not as much as you, so I'm a little less knowledgeable than most of the veterans of this site.

God’s law is a “story”? Jesus specially says when He changes The Law.

It is a story. The entire book of Exodus is a story, perhaps true, perhaps semi-true, with many laws sprinkled in. Most holy texts from around the world are stories.

Yes, Hell is mentioned 64 times in The Bible, 39 times Old Testament. Remember we are talking God’s correct Holy Word here The King James Version 1611 and not some heretical so called bibles going around out there.

I believe in Hell, but as a place of Purgatory, not eternal damnation. An unbaptised or aborted baby goes to Hell just because they never accepted Jesus? Come off it! You must be insane.

a) It is against the law to stone people in The United States. While it as false, wicked law put up by Satan it is the law and we good and TRUE Christians are commanded to obey the law, as per Romans.

b) I would never be stoned because I have turned my life over to Jesus and He protects me from sinning. GLORY!

a) Well, I'm glad you obey. Obeying laws we don't like for the benefit of God's will is redemptive for the soul. I just pray I can take some of my own advice if and when the time comes.

b) Okay, put what if bin Laden should take over, and he won't, but what if he should, and implement Sha'ria (spelling?) law, and you end up being stoned anyway? What would you say then?


Oh yeah, can I ask you something? At what point in the Old Testament does God actually stop interacting physically with the Israelites?

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Has it not already been explained to you that God and Jesus are one and the same?

Tell us, what religion do you follow, since you clearly hate God?

God and Jesus are one and the same. And Yahweh is not God.

I told you, I'm a pagan. And I hate your god because his very actions go against every sense of morality and reason and justice ingrained in me, not from my parents, or from the liberal media, or from any outside source, but the morality and reason and justice I developed on my own, that was partially with me at birth, and partially developed from my own experiences.

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

God and Jesus are one and the same. And Yahweh is not God.

I told you, I'm a pagan. And I hate your god because his very actions go against every sense of morality and reason and justice ingrained in me, not from my parents, or from the liberal media, or from any outside source, but the morality and reason and justice I developed on my own, that was partially with me at birth, and partially developed from my own experiences.

So instead of following the One True God, you prefer to make up your own Do-It-Yourself gods, and follow them. Gotcha.

Wouldn't it be easier to just say that you're an atheist? After all, making up a god to suit yourself is the same thing as worshipping yourself, anyway.

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

So instead of following the One True God, you prefer to make up your own Do-It-Yourself gods, and follow them. Gotcha.

Wouldn't it be easier to just say that you're an atheist? After all, making up a god to suit yourself is the same thing as worshipping yourself, anyway.

Actually I've found that it's easier for me to just pray to whatever aspect of God suits my needs at a given time. If, for example, I wish it to be sunny on a certain day, I'd pray to Ra, and if I wish for rain, the Mayan god Chac. Does it often work? Probably not. But it's been scientifically proven that the more people put their minds to something happening, the more likely it is to happen: in essence, prayer works. So no, I don't make up gods, and I certainly am not a narcisist or athiest. How the hell did you come up with that conclusion anyway? Your logic is beyond my comprehension.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Even when there is nothing in the Bible that says God secretly controls Satan? Who's interpreting now? Besides that, if Jesus said that Yahweh was false, then it would be as if the government had revealed they had secretly been dealing with aliens. Firstly, every Jew there ever was would have panicked or commited suicide or converted or something. Either that or a mob would have murdered Him and He wouldn't have had a chance to die on the cross. It would have been utter chaos. And God doesn't want chaos.

Hold it there friend.

What you are saying friend makes absolutely no sense from a Christian perspective; Jesus, Son of God, who willing suffered a brutal if temporary death for our sins over a long weekend was too afraid to tell The TRUTH to the world???? No friend, my faith says that is pure nonsense, to believe it is to spit in Jesus face, slap Him around, strip Him naked and then mock in public as a spineless coward. There is no way any good Christian could accept what you have just stated. Frankly I can not see how chaos among the Jews would have dissuaded Jesus, did He not prophesizes that the Romans would destroy the Temple and ruin the Jewish nation? Chaos was coming and since God is the ruler of all men it was the chaos God wanted.

Friend, for the sake of you soul you have to face The Truth; God is God threw the whole Bible. This exasperating insistence that we TRUE Christians somehow worship a false god is ridiculous. We have scripture behind us 110.10%. I’ve seen precious little from you.

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Hold it there friend.

What you are saying friend makes absolutely no sense from a Christian perspective; Jesus, Son of God, who willing suffered a brutal if temporary death for our sins over a long weekend was too afraid to tell The TRUTH to the world???? No friend, my faith says that is pure nonsense, to believe it is to spit in Jesus face, slap Him around, strip Him naked and then mock in public as a spineless coward. There is no way any good Christian could accept what you have just stated. Frankly I can not see how chaos among the Jews would have dissuaded Jesus, did He not prophesizes that the Romans would destroy the Temple and ruin the Jewish nation? Chaos was coming and since God is the ruler of all men it was the chaos God wanted.

I wasn't saying He was afraid, I'm saying that for the good of the world the truth was not to be revealed; humans could not handle the truth just then... and obviously they still can't. Perhaps in the coming apocalypse... I think we're all in for some surprises when that happens, even me.

Friend, for the sake of you soul you have to face The Truth; God is God threw the whole Bible. This exasperating insistence that we TRUE Christians somehow worship a false god is ridiculous.

You want to know what's ridiculous? Your entire belief system! It's so messed up and twisted, I can't believe anyone ever could believe it. Babies going to hell! Righteousness in rape, murder and torture! It goes against the morals of every sane person on the planet! It is beyond exasparating to see you all spew this filth. You're all taints that need to be WIPED OUT!

*Calms down* Sorry, I get like that sometimes. All this debate has got me riled up.

We have scripture behind us 110.10%. I’ve seen precious little from you.

Oh sure, you have the literal scriptures behind you, but I fear you do not understand the message of them, the spirit of them. The fact of the matter is, there is NOTHING in the New Testament that validates your beliefs... Jesus said to (paraphrase) "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and give unto God what is God's". If that's not a call for the separation of Church and State, I don't know what is. Unless you're saying that Jesus deliberately lied to decieve liberals, and that, my friend, is blasphemy.

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

I'm retiring for the night; I'll pick this up tomorrow.

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Actually I've found that it's easier for me to just pray to whatever aspect of God suits my needs at a given time. If, for example, I wish it to be sunny on a certain day, I'd pray to Ra, and if I wish for rain, the Mayan god Chac. Does it often work? Probably not. But it's been scientifically proven that the more people put their minds to something happening, the more likely it is to happen: in essence, prayer works.

Could you give us a "scientific" reference for that? Or are you just going to claim whatever you believe is "a known fact"? Last time I checked, God answered prayers with a "yes" or a "no", not by taking a poll and deciding based upon how many others thought my prayer was a good idea. It's praying to God, not American Idol! (Though the latter likely suits you better, eh?)

I imagine you must support Global Orgasm Day, then? It would seem to fit neatly with your concept of how God works.

So no, I don't make up gods, and I certainly am not a narcisist or athiest. How the hell did you come up with that conclusion anyway? Your logic is beyond my comprehension.

I'm sorry if we confuse you. It's really quite simple.

A made-up god is a reflection of the maker. Therefore, you pray to whatever suits you at the moment, or a god of your own imaginings. You put your imagination above God. This makes you both a narcissist and an atheist, because you deny God by imagining your own gods.

I wasn't saying He was afraid, I'm saying that for the good of the world the truth was not to be revealed; humans could not handle the truth just then... and obviously they still can't. Perhaps in the coming apocalypse... I think we're all in for some surprises when that happens, even me.

So you're calling God not a coward but a liar, I see. That's much better.

You want to know what's ridiculous? Your entire belief system! It's so messed up and twisted, I can't believe anyone ever could believe it. Babies going to hell! Righteousness in rape, murder and torture! It goes against the morals of every sane person on the planet! It is beyond exasparating to see you all spew this filth. You're all taints that need to be WIPED OUT!

If you don't like what the Bible says, take it up with God. He wrote it, we merely share the truth about what it says.

Unlike salad-bar Christians, who pick and choose the nice parts of the Bible, we follow the whole thing, even the parts we don't like.

Considering Christianity (including warped John 3:16 Christianity, and all other manner of False Christians) is the majority religion on the planet, with over 2 billion served, and is the dominant religion in all advanced countries, I wonder who is or is not sane here.

After all, you're the one advocating genocide, not us. ("You're all taints that need to be WIPED OUT!" Who said that? Oh, yes. The "peace-loving" Pagan, known by his fruits. Uh-huh.)

Oh sure, you have the literal scriptures behind you, but I fear you do not understand the message of them, the spirit of them. The fact of the matter is, there is NOTHING in the New Testament that validates your beliefs...

Please demonstrate. Have you actually READ the New Testament?

Jesus said to (paraphrase) "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and give unto God what is God's". If that's not a call for the separation of Church and State, I don't know what is.

Well, no. It's not, so apparently you don't.

Let's look at that in context, shall we?

Mark 7:13-17

13And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.

14And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
15Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
16And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.
17And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

The Pharisees and Herodians were trying to trick Jesus into saying that Jews should not pay tribute to Caesar, so they could have him jailed as a revolutionary. He was too clever for them. This is quite clear, if you read the full Scripture, instead of trying to cherry-pick verses at random to support your frail argument. It has nothing to do with endorsing a separation of church and state, a wholly modern concept.

Unless you're saying that Jesus deliberately lied to decieve liberals, and that, my friend, is blasphemy.

Why would you think that Jesus would not deceive anyone? What Bible have you been reading, son?

Matthew 13:10-13

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Jesus speaks to the masses in parables so that he can tell them the truth in a way that they will not understand it. In this manner, they may be freely condemned to eternal punishment in Hell for failing to comprehend, since they were told the Truth and rejected it.

God (who is also Jesus, remember) also lies to people directly. Hear Paul attesting to this fact:

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Here, Paul describes the downfall of the Antichrist and his followers. GOD shall send them strong delusion, it says, that they should believe a lie (the Antichrist's lies), that they all might be damned!

Yes, God does deceive people so He may, in good conscience, damn them to eternal torture for the sake of being foolish enough to believe the lies He forced them to believe! Your claims that God would never be dishonest are the blasphemy here!

PRAISE GOD for deceiving the wicked, that they might not be saved, and may be eternally punished in Hellfire!

[Daniel]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Pagan gods are just false gods put up by Satan. That is why many of their ceremonies resemble Godly Christian ceremonies butedate them. Satan pre-stole these things to mock Jesus.

Plus, Satan is terrible at coming up with his own ideas. He is about as stupid and unoriginal as they come. You can see this in the way some of his followers sacrifice to him...cutting themselves. It's just sick.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

I wasn't saying He was afraid, I'm saying that for the good of the world the truth was not to be revealed; humans could not handle the truth just then... and obviously they still can't.

Friend, who knows the mind of God? No mortal man can. That is our point here at Landover; human reason can not possibly match’s God’s so the faithful must follow His Godly commands to the letter. Jesus tells me in my heart that all of it is for the better even if it appears to me to be otherwise.

Perhaps in the coming apocalypse... I think we're all in for some surprises when that happens, even me.

According the Revelations the only surprise will be the shock and horror of what Jesus will do to the sinful. Those that He doesn’t kill outright with disease, famine and war He will personally cut down and command the birds to feed on their dying bodies.

You want to know what's ridiculous? Your entire belief system! It's so messed up and twisted, I can't believe anyone ever could believe it. Babies going to hell!

If they reject Christ by not living long enough to repent of their depravity and accept Jesus as their personal savior they will go to hell, yes that is what God in The Bible says friend.

Righteousness in rape, murder and torture!

We TRUE Christians murder no one friend. The Bible specifically says the blood of their deaths is upon their own head. In other words the sinner kills themselves.

It goes against the morals of every sane person on the planet! It is beyond exasparating to see you all spew this filth. You're all taints that need to be WIPED OUT!

*Calms down* Sorry, I get like that sometimes. All this debate has got me riled up.

First; I forgive you for your outburst. Since you are not one of Jesus beloved elect you can no show the same patience and love for humanity Jesus has bestowed upon me.

Second; Friend, let me carefully explain this to you. This is not what I personally consider right or wrong. This is what God specifically says it right or wrong. If you have an issue with stoning sinners to death for their crimes against God then you have an issue with God. Since God calls for this it must be righteous and my own personal distaste is just my selfish humanity depravity.

Oh sure, you have the literal scriptures behind you, but I fear you do not understand the message of them, the spirit of them. The fact of the matter is, there is NOTHING in the New Testament that validates your beliefs... Jesus said to (paraphrase) "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and give unto God what is God's". If that's not a call for the separation of Church and State, I don't know what is. Unless you're saying that Jesus deliberately lied to decieve liberals, and that, my friend, is blasphemy.

There go again friend reading only part of scripture. People do this all the time like with the “love you neighbor” quote, they ignore Christ specifically telling them it only applies to fellow Christians. Now what Christ is say and Romans explains further is we TRUE Christians are to obey secular law. That is why we TRUE Christians do not go around killing wickers, atheists, homers and the like on sight because it is against secular law. Since this unjustly oppresses our religious freedom we TRUE Christians are working in the system to put up leaders who reflect our values like GW Bush. The day will come friend when the United States of America is a Christian nation again! GLORY!