Please help with Bible problem: God cannot lie but he deceives?

[Harsha Shah]

Yes! It is Harsha Shah here.

Many of you know that I am teaching RME that is Religious and Moral Education to 11-12 year-olds. Yes. We have been discussing lying and truthfulness and having examples from many religions. Yes. I was referring to the Bible and the Titus Epistle (Titus 1:2) "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;" Yes. I was saying that the christian God will not lie.

Yes. I have a girl in my class that I have been telling you about. She is very intelligent and not religious. I am thinking that this may offend you but she had also been reading the Bible and she said that the God of the Bible does lie. Yes. She mentioned the Thessalonians epistle chapter 2 (2 Thessalonians 2:11) "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" I was saying that this is not exactly lying but sending hallucinations. Yes. Then she started referring to your old testament. In the Jeremiah prophacy (Jeremiah 20:7) the prophet is saying "O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me." Yes.

This has also been written in the Ezekiel prophecy (Ezekiel 14:9) "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." Yes. The same was also in the Jewish Chronicles (2 Chronicles 18:22) "Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee."

Yes. I am thinking that I might be offending you but I have not been able to reconcile this. I was also looking for the definitions of lying and deceiving and I found these: Lying is 'to make a false statement with the intention to deceive' yes and 'A lie is a statement made by one who does not believe it with the intention that someone else shall be led to believe it'. I am thinking that a lie is practically the same as deception.

The girl was pointing out that if the Titus epistle is correct then the Bible is lying and if the other parts of Bible are correct then the Titus epistle is wrong and lying. Yes. This is also a question of omnipotency regarding your God. I am sorry if I was offending you but my RME class would probably appreciate to know how you Christians would be replying to this. Yes.

[Im Atheist idiot]

Re: Please help with Bible problem: God cannot lie but he deceives?

There is a simple answer to your question my dear. The Christian god is a, for all intensive purposes, a monster. So in regards to him not being able to lie but deceive, it is a paradox in and of itself. He also doesn't have to play by any rules he makes because he is god, so in the end it doesn't even matter. He can theoretically lie and tell the truth at the same time and if you say a damn thing about it is waiting with a pitchfork for you sweet ***removed potty language*** babe.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Please help with Bible problem: God cannot lie but he deceives?

There is a simple answer to your question my dear. The Christian god is a, for all intensive purposes, a monster. So in regards to him not being able to lie but deceive, it is a paradox in and of itself. He also doesn't have to play by any rules he makes because he is god, so in the end it doesn't even matter. He can theoretically lie and tell the truth at the same time and if you say a damn thing about it is waiting with a pitchfork for you sweet ***removed potty language*** babe.

Mr. Atheist,

Your expressions are a bit vulgar but I can see that you are not a lost case. You heart is in the right place. You have more understanding of God than many false Christians or the Muslim-Catholic swarms.

Indeed, God does not necessarily care about earthly logic. He Creates logic. He does what He wishes. False Christians try to make Him in their personal image - they try to make Him a cotton-candy God that would accept everything and everyone. You understand that that is NOT the case.

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

For the unbeliever, God might indeed seem to be monstrous. This is necessary to make them Fear God (Ecclesiastes 12:13). Jesus is Loving and Caring to us once we reach Heaven. For the majority of mankind (Matthew 7:14), He won't be so merciful. He has promised to bring to peace but war (Matthew 10:34). Very soon He'll re-appear from the Heavens wielding that aforementioned sword from His mouth (Revelation 19:15). He'll burn the forests and grasslands, poison the drinking water of unbelievers, destroy all ocean life and cause war and havoc.

it is the first step towards Redemption to understand that God won't just accept you into Heaven. I have high hopes for you, our new atheist friend!


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Phil Ander]

Re: Please help with Bible problem: God cannot lie but he deceives?

Yes! It is Harsha Shah here.

Many of you know that I am teaching RME that is Religious and Moral Education to 11-12 year-olds. Yes. We have been discussing lying and truthfulness and having examples from many religions. Yes. I was referring to the Bible and the Titus Epistle (Titus 1:2) "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;" Yes. I was saying that the christian God will not lie.

Yes. I have a girl in my class that I have been telling you about. She is very intelligent and not religious. I am thinking that this may offend you but she had also been reading the Bible and she said that the God of the Bible does lie. Yes. She mentioned the Thessalonians epistle chapter 2 (2 Thessalonians 2:11) "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" I was saying that this is not exactly lying but sending hallucinations. Yes. Then she started referring to your old testament. In the Jeremiah prophacy (Jeremiah 20:7) the prophet is saying "O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me." Yes.

This has also been written in the Ezekiel prophecy (Ezekiel 14:9) "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." Yes. The same was also in the Jewish Chronicles (2 Chronicles 18:22) "Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee."

Yes. I am thinking that I might be offending you but I have not been able to reconcile this. I was also looking for the definitions of lying and deceiving and I found these: Lying is 'to make a false statement with the intention to deceive' yes and 'A lie is a statement made by one who does not believe it with the intention that someone else shall be led to believe it'. I am thinking that a lie is practically the same as deception.

The girl was pointing out that if the Titus epistle is correct then the Bible is lying and if the other parts of Bible are correct then the Titus epistle is wrong and lying. Yes. This is also a question of omnipotency regarding your God. I am sorry if I was offending you but my RME class would probably appreciate to know how you Christians would be replying to this. Yes.

It is quite possible to deceive without lying.


Example from the animal kingdom:


I sitting in my favorite chair which Rastas, our pet dog, also coverts. He is lying on the floor next to the chair, suddenly gets up and runs to the front door and starts to bark. I think that Rastas is alerting me to the fact that there is someone, possibly a Jehovah's witness or a Mormon standing outside the door. I get up, go to grab my rifle so I can deal with this unwarranted intrusion in a civil fashion, but as soon as I have gone to the Armoury, Rastas runs back and jumps on the chair. Rastas has deceived me, but has not lied. My reaction to to his behaviour has achieved Rastas's short term goals. The goal is in fact short term, because as soon I realize I've been conned, Rastas gets the beating of his life.


Example from a hypothetical crime


John A is suspected of committing a crime in Location B. John A says "I have evidence that I was in Location C on that day" and shows a credit card receipt for a transaction that afternoon." He has not lied but is attempting to deceive the investigators, by not mentioning the return aeroplane trip he took to location B in the morning.


Example from history


New York is bought for $24 worth of trinkets from the local Indian tribe in 1626. The Indian chief thought a couple of strings of beads were priceless jewels. That the Dutch didn't correct this impression was not a lie, it was a deception.


And as history tells, an important tipping point. Just imagine if Wall Street was a mess of wigwams these days.


Deceptions is different to Lies


Pedantic Phil

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Please help with Bible problem: God cannot lie but he deceives?

Yes! It is Harsha Shah here.

Someone told me you'd joined ISIS... anyway, enough of these pleasantries - about God:

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
(Jeremiah 20:7) the prophet is saying "O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me." Yes.

(Ezekiel 14:9) "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." Chronicles (2 Chronicles 18:22) "Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee."

I think you need to remember Romans 9 in which Paul lays out God's Power and Administration of that Power.

Paul asks the rhetorical question:
Ro:9:12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Ro:9:13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Ro:9:14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Ro:9:20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Ro:9:21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Ro:9:22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Ro:9:23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

You may think that Paul has made all of this up, but no! He is merely re-speaking Jesus's Words in John 9:

Joh:9:1: And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
Joh:9:2: And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh:9:3: Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Here then we see that all that God does is to demonstrate His Power to us - all things are possible with God, but occasionally we need that demonstration:

Someone fitted for Hell is sent there: not by being smited by God with astonishment of the heart, but by going mad or telling lies.

As you walk along the street, you see people who are sick, lame, lazy, dark-skinned, have boils, nappy-haired, have big noses, etc., etc. And what is your first thought?

Well it should be "God did that just to show how powerful he is - I must be thankful that I have not suffered so much that way."

I hope that answers your student's questions. Please explain why you could not answer them and yet are being paid (with my taxes) to teach!

[Johny Joe Hold]

Re: Please help with Bible problem: God cannot lie but he deceives?

Yes! It is Harsha Shah here.
Yes. I am thinking that I might be offending you but I have not been able to reconcile this. I was also looking for the definitions of lying and deceiving and I found these: Lying is 'to make a false statement with the intention to deceive' yes and 'A lie is a statement made by one who does not believe it with the intention that someone else shall be led to believe it'. I am thinking that a lie is practically the same as deception.

The girl was pointing out that if the Titus epistle is correct then the Bible is lying and if the other parts of Bible are correct then the Titus epistle is wrong and lying. Yes. This is also a question of omnipotency regarding your God. I am sorry if I was offending you but my RME class would probably appreciate to know how you Christians would be replying to this. Yes.

There is a similar problem for all of us who publically proclaim for Jesus. I can't tell you how many times a new comer to Freehold has asked me a question like, "So, the big church in town is Landover Baptist. Would I enjoy that church?"

All of us who are True Christians™ give the same answer, "Yes, you will really enjoy it. Go next Sunday."

However, when we say "you will really enjoy it", we are referring to the eternal life in heaven. We are not referring to the sermon next Sunday. At that sermon Pastor Zeke will condemn these newcomers for their sins. He will make them feel guilty and worthless for all their sins which in turn makes their souls headed for the fire.

In setting them up for a miserable Sunday, we have saved them from the misery of hell.

I hope that helps you and your students understand the complex subject matter of truth and lies.

[Harsha Shah]

Re: Please help with Bible problem: God cannot lie but he deceives?

Yes. It is Harsha Shah here. I am answering to you. Yes.

I am very thankful for your educated replies. Yes. I am thinking that I might offend you but my pupils were not satisfied with the answers. This very intelligent girl has now been researching some websites with biblical studies and she is saying that Jesus was also lying in the Gospel of John Chapter 7. yes, he was. This is from that part of your Bible. I am hoping that this text does not offend you.

"Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.
When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.
But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret."

Yes. Jesus is telling that he will not go to the feast but it is a lie as he eventually will be going there anyway. I am thinking that this is a human book and that our minds and lives are complex and tuirths and lies always intermix. Yes. It must have been the same with your Jesus. Thank you again for your very kind answers. Yes.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Please help with Bible problem: God cannot lie but he deceives?

John 7 is one of the simpler chapters of the Bible to understand although your not having American as a first language, and being a woman are perhaps grave disadvantages to understanding and thus, Salvation.

John 7 opens after Jesus has fed 5,000, walked on the sea and mysteriously made his way back to Galilee. His disciples suggest that he leave for Judah as the Kikes are after him and there’s going to be a festival and the place will look like Macey’s on Blue Cross Sale day.

This puts Jesus in a fix
(i) He can tell them that He is going to go anyway, but if they go with Him, as He knows they will want to, He will be recognized and will not be able to save souls.
(ii) He can tell them to go alone, and they can do the Saving of Souls, but they do not want to go if they cannot follow Him about.
(iii) He can tell them that His Perfect Plan is to go to the Temple, but they would tie Him up in the mistaken belief that they were Saving Himself from Himself (which is the offer He makes us.)

So He gives them busy-work: Save Souls (whilst I tell the Kikes what it is all about at the Temple.) only He doesn’t mention the last bit – so it’s not like lying like atheists and Catlicks do – it is just that the disciples don’t need to know what He is doing.

[Harsha Shah]

Re: Please help with Bible problem: God cannot lie but he deceives?

Yes, Mr. Bathfire. I am grateful for your comment even if I am starting to wonder why your Bible is so complex a book that the explanations are requiring more room than the original text. Yes. I have been trying to read the Galatians commentary by your Luther and it is perhaps 30 times longer than the original. I am finding this quite confusing. Yes.


I am hoping that this is not offending you. Yes. I am still trying to follow some of the teachings of my jainist religion, such as anekāntavāda the non-absolutism that is keeping an open mind to everything. Saying Yes. Yes. I am picturing a world of shared matter but many immaterial truths. Yes. Thank you again, Mr. Bathfire. You are always very kind. Yes.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Please help with Bible problem: God cannot lie but he deceives?

Yes, Mr. Bathfire. I am grateful for your comment even if I am starting to wonder why your Bible is so complex a book that the explanations are requiring more room than the original text.

I don't think God ever said it would be easy getting to Heaven, if it were, everyone would be there, and the place would be crowded.

Yes. I have been trying to read the Galatians commentary by your Luther

I haven't got a Luther...

and it is perhaps 30 times longer than the original.

That's probably Luther's fault, not mine. If you're a True Christian, the right answer is short and just "comes to you."

... such as anekāntavāda the non-absolutism

Well, whatever works for you, but anything that has a stupid name is probably stupid itself - "by their fruits ye shall know them, etc."

that is keeping an open mind to everything. Saying Yes. Yes.

I am sure this makes you popular with the young men, but we do not encourage that sort of thing at Landover.

I am picturing a world of shared matter but many immaterial truths.

Do you know... I don't even know what that means, and I suspect the guy who told you that didn't either.