[Matchbox_On_Fire]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

It's true! A lot of Christian say abortion is wrong, but I have studied the Bible thoroughly, and guess what - it's not mentioned in there! BUT - what IS in there definitely leads me to believe God respects a woman's right to CHOOSE!

First of all, according to the Bible, a fetus is not yet a human being!

Exodus 21: 22-25 "When there's a fight and in the fight a pregnant woman is hit so that she miscarries but is not otherwise hurt, the one responsible has to pay whatever the husband demands in compensation. But if there is further damage, then you must give life for life—eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

According to this verse, a woman who lost her baby has not been accosted of any life, and the guilty party is not charged with murder for making the woman miscarry.

There are other verses that explain an unborn bany as alive. I don't remember which prophet it was, I think Isaiah, but one prophet God says that he knew him while God sowed him in his mother's womb. So if this is the truth then a person is alive while they are in their mother's womb. Thus it's not a "fetus" it's an unborn baby.

The othere side of the arguement as you've said, Serenity-Millennium, is it's a woman's body, so it's her choice. Right? Well I disagree. While in a mother to be, a baby is it's own growing individual. The onlyconnection the mother has to the child is through the plecanta, which only transfers oxgyan and nutriants to thechild and the baby's waste products back to the mom. The baby produces it's own blood, and grows on it's own with the mother's nutrition.

With this in mind it's not a woman's body, her choice. It's her body and her child's baby. But the child being dependant on the his/her mother doesn't get a choice to say.

Sorry Serenity-Millennium, I dig your name being a sci-fy fan myself, but with abortion, there's to many ignored moral issues that convince me that it's wrong, along with relious beliefs that your alive at conception and killing is wrong.

[Samuel Coleridge]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

There are other verses that explain an unborn bany as alive. I don't remember which prophet it was, I think Isaiah, but one prophet God says that he knew him while God sowed him in his mother's womb. So if this is the truth then a person is alive while they are in their mother's womb. Thus it's not a "fetus" it's an unborn baby.

That's in Jeremiah 1 and if you read it in context, you will realize that it only applies to the Prophet.

1The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:
4Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
6Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.

I know you fundie types tend to use it as being against the Right to Choose, but it clearly isn't.

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Great argument! Never considered that! This completely blows away the arguments I've presented so far!

Thank you

You are out of your mind. Next thing you'll tell me is that Salvation™ is achieved through works, instead of through faith.

Salvation is achieved by existence, lol. Or more accurately, it's achieved by God's works. He died on the cross and therefore saved everyone who ever lived (assuming they were over a month old, of course).

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

There are other verses that explain an unborn bany as alive. I don't remember which prophet it was, I think Isaiah, but one prophet God says that he knew him while God sowed him in his mother's womb. So if this is the truth then a person is alive while they are in their mother's womb. Thus it's not a "fetus" it's an unborn baby.

I don't think this is correct:

God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives. (ie, the baby does not matter, as God does not punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty)

Numbers 5: 16-22 "The priest then is to take her and have her stand in the presence of God. He is to take some holy water in a pottery jar and put some dust from the floor of The Dwelling in the water. After the priest has her stand in the presence of God he is to uncover her hair and place the exposure-offering in her hands, the Grain-Offering for jealousy, while he holds the bitter water that delivers a curse. Then the priest will put the woman under oath and say, 'If no man has slept with you and you have not had an adulterous affair and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that delivers a curse not harm you. But if you have had an affair while married to your husband and have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband'—here the priest puts the woman under this curse—'may God cause your people to curse and revile you when he makes your womb shrivel and your belly swell. Let this water that delivers a curse enter your body so that your belly swells and your womb shrivels.'
"Then the woman shall say, 'Amen. Amen.'

Numbers 5: 23-28 "The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash the words off into the bitter water. He then is to give the woman the bitter water that delivers a curse. This water will enter her body and cause acute pain. The priest then is to take from her hands a handful of the Grain-Offering for jealousy, wave it before God, and bring it to the Altar. The priest then is to take a handful of the Grain-Offering, using it as an exposure-offering, and burn it on the Altar; after this he is to make her drink the water. If she has defiled herself in being unfaithful to her husband, when she drinks the water that delivers a curse, it will enter her body and cause acute pain; her belly will swell and her womb shrivel. She will be cursed among her people. But if she has not defiled herself and is innocent of impurity, her name will be cleared and she will be able to have children.


God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women. (again, no consideration is given for the baby's life)

Genesis 38: 24 Three months or so later, Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law has been playing the whore—and now she's a pregnant whore."
Judah yelled, "Get her out here. Burn her up!"



Other Biblical passages question the value of an unhappy, painful, or "wicked" life. They aver that it is better to suffer an "untimely birth" (i.e, be miscarried) than live a miserable existence, or worse, live as an evil unbeliever.

Ecclesiastes 6: 3-5 Say a couple have scores of children and live a long, long life but never enjoy themselves—even though they end up with a big funeral! I'd say that a stillborn baby gets the better deal. It gets its start in a mist and ends up in the dark—unnamed. It sees nothing and knows nothing, but is better off by far than anyone living.



Job 3: 11-19 "Why didn't I die at birth,
my first breath out of the womb my last?
Why were there arms to rock me,
and breasts for me to drink from?
I could be resting in peace right now,
asleep forever, feeling no pain,
In the company of kings and statesmen
in their royal ruins,
Or with princes resplendent
in their gold and silver tombs.
Why wasn't I stillborn and buried
with all the babies who never saw light,
Where the wicked no longer trouble anyone
and bone-weary people get a long-deserved rest?
Prisoners sleep undisturbed,
never again to wake up to the bark of the guards.
The small and the great are equals in that place,
and slaves are free from their masters.


Psalm 58: 3-5 The wicked crawl from the wrong side of the cradle;
their first words out of the womb are lies.
Poison, lethal rattlesnake poison,
drips from their forked tongues—
Deaf to threats, deaf to charm,
decades of wax built up in their ears.

6-9 God, smash their teeth to bits,
leave them toothless tigers.
Let their lives be buckets of water spilled,
all that's left, a damp stain in the sand.
Let them be trampled grass
worn smooth by the traffic.
Let them dissolve into snail slime,
be a miscarried fetus that never sees sunlight.
Before what they cook up is half-done, God,
throw it out with the garbage!

[True Disciple]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

That's in Jeremiah 1 and if you read it in context, you will realize that it only applies to the Prophet.

1The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:
4Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
6Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.

I know you fundie types tend to use it as being against the Right to Choose, but it clearly isn't.

Don't speak nonsense, mr. Coleridge. If you had bothered to read the previous posts in this thread, you would have seen that this point already was disproved.

This is because mr. Millennium proposed that abortion was Biblically correct because a baby up until a month old wouldn't be a human being. This assertion is wrong because:

1. The Scripture Verses he quoted to support his claims simply do not say that.
2. It is a universal negative. It is completely irrelevant that Jeremiah 1:5 only applies to Jeremiah; the point is that there was at least one unborn baby we can be 100% sure of that God regarded him as a human being. This disproves mr. Millennium's universal negative, and invalidates his claims: if one unborn person was seen by God as a human being, on what basis exactly can we say that other persons would not be? What Scripture is there to support that Jeremiah was unique in this way?

So, clearly God views at least some unborn babies as human beings. There is no way we can make out for ourselves which unborn babies He does or doesn't see like that, so abortion is sinful.

Thank you

Please give me the definition of both the words "aionion" and "sarcasm."

Salvation is achieved by existence, lol. Or more accurately, it's achieved by God's works. He died on the cross and therefore saved everyone who ever lived (assuming they were over a month old, of course).

Ridiculous. Then why does the Bible teach:

Romans 10:9:
If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If you were correct, then what exactly would be the point of confessing the Lord Jesus with your mouth and believing that God raised Him from the dead? What does "saved" mean according to you?

And again, your one-month-old rule for abortion has bethat you are wrong. You have the annoying tendency to just repeat yourself endlessly without listening, considering or answering the criticisms of your ideas by other people.

I don't think this is correct:

God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives. (ie, the baby does not matter, as God does not punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty)

I thought you supported the ridiculous, unbiblical idea that God wouldn't punish anyone, not even the guilty. What made you change your mind?

God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women. (again, no consideration is given for the baby's life)

Genesis 38: 24 Three months or so later, Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law has been playing the whore—and now she's a pregnant whore."
Judah yelled, "Get her out here. Burn her up!"

Umm, is God the one speaking here? Or do you worship Judah as your god?

Other Biblical passages question the value of an unhappy, painful, or "wicked" life. They aver that it is better to suffer an "untimely birth" (i.e, be miscarried) than live a miserable existence, or worse, live as an evil unbeliever.

This is what people in the Bible say, but I can't think of a single instance where God Himself says this. This is why this doesn't support your argument at all.

Additionally, I'm afraid you've left the best one out here. In fact, twice does Jeremiah, the very person of whom we with absolute certainty know that he was "known before God formed him in the belly," himself lament the day he was born:

Jeremiah 15:10:
Woe is me, my mother, that thou hast borne me a man of strife and a man of contention to the whole earth! I have neither lent on usury, nor men have lent to me on usury; yet every one of them doth curse me.

Jeremiah 20:14-18:
Cursed be the day wherein I was born: let not the day wherein my mother bare me be blessed. Cursed be the man who brought tidings to my father, saying, A man child is born unto thee; making him very glad.
And let that man be as the cities which the LORD overthrew, and repented not: and let him hear the cry in the morning, and the shouting at noontide;
Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me.
Wherefore came I forth out of the womb to see labour and sorrow, that my days should be consumed with shame?

If Jeremiah was in for a life of pain and suffering, and it would have been better, as you said, to have never been born, why was he born?

Because God wanted him to be born!

Jeremiah 1:5:
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

God wants people to be born, even when their lives will be filled with hardship and pain. Jeremiah would have preferred abortion, perhaps, but God disagreed. What more proof do you need?

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Please give me the definition of both the words "aionion" and "sarcasm."

I don't follow you

Ridiculous. Then why does the Bible teach:

Romans 10:9:
If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If you were correct, then what exactly would be the point of confessing the Lord Jesus with your mouth and believing that God raised Him from the dead? What does "saved" mean according to you?

You are right, the Bible does teach that. You should try reading the whole Bible sometime, though, because it clearly says EVERYONE will confess Jesus is Lord:

KJV:

Philippians 2:9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Message:

Philippians 2: 9-11Because of that obedience, God lifted him high and honored him far beyond anyone or anything, ever, so that all created beings in heaven and on earth—even those long ago dead and buried—will bow in worship before this Jesus Christ, and call out in praise that he is the Master of all, to the glorious honor of God the Father.

And again, your one-month-old rule for abortion has bethat you are wrong. You have the annoying tendency to just repeat yourself endlessly without listening, considering or answering the criticisms of your ideas by other people.

Well, I certainly did not do that on purpose, but perhaps you should recall Jesus' words about removing the beam from your eye...

I thought you supported the ridiculous, unbiblical idea that God wouldn't punish anyone, not even the guilty. What made you change your mind?

More proof you haven't read anything I've written I never said God didn't punish anyone. I clearly said I just don't believe in ETERNAL punishment.

Umm, is God the one speaking here? Or do you worship Judah as your god?

Is Judah not a godly man? Does the Bible mention Judah doing anything wrong here?

This is what people in the Bible say, but I can't think of a single instance where God Himself says this. This is why this doesn't support your argument at all.

While you can make the argument that the Job passage is just someone talking -

are you suggesting that the Psalmist (King David) and the preacher of Ecclesiastes (King Solomon) were not inspired by God in their writing?

Jeremiah 1:5:
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

BEFORE I formed thee in the belly.

Do you think life starts BEFORE conception, in that case Of course God knows, God knows everything that will happen.

God wants people to be born, even when their lives will be filled with hardship and pain. Jeremiah would have preferred abortion, perhaps, but God disagreed. What more proof do you need?

Deuteronomy 2: 32-36 So Sihon and his entire army confronted us in battle at Jahaz. God handed him, his sons, and his entire army over to us and we utterly crushed them. While we were at it we captured all his towns and totally destroyed them, a holy destruction—men, women, and children. No survivors. We took the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured and carried them off for ourselves. From Aroer on the edge of the Brook Arnon and the town in the gorge, as far as Gilead, not a single town proved too much for us; God, our God, gave every last one of them to us.

Deuteronomy 3:3-7 So God, our God, also handed Og king of Bashan over to us—Og and all his people—and we utterly crushed them. Again, no survivors. At the same time we took all his cities. There wasn't one of the sixty cities that we didn't take—the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. All these cities were fortress cities with high walls and barred gates. There were also numerous unwalled villages. We totally destroyed them—a holy destruction. It was the same treatment we gave to Sihon king of Heshbon, a holy destruction of every city, man, woman, and child. But all the livestock and plunder from the cities we took for ourselves.

Joshua 10:28-40


No Survivors

28 That same day Joshua captured Makkedah, a massacre that included the king. He carried out the holy curse. No survivors. Makkedah's king got the same treatment as Jericho's king. 29-30 Joshua, all Israel with him, moved on from Makkedah to Libnah and fought against Libnah. God gave Libnah to Israel. They captured city and king and massacred the lot. No survivors. Libnah's king got the same treatment as Jericho's king.
31-32 Joshua, all Israel with him, moved on from Libnah to Lachish. He set up camp nearby and attacked. God gave Lachish to Israel. Israel took it in two days and killed everyone. He carried out the holy curse, the same as with Libnah.
33 Horam, king of Gezer, arrived to help Lachish. Joshua attacked him and his army until there was nothing left of them. No survivors.
34-35 Joshua, all Israel with him, moved on from Lachish to Eglon. They set up camp and attacked. They captured it and killed everyone, carrying out the holy curse, the same as they had done with Lachish.
36-37 Joshua, all Israel with him, went up from Eglon to Hebron. He attacked and captured it. They killed everyone, including its king, its villages, and their people. No survivors, the same as with Eglon. They carried out the holy curse on city and people.
38-39 Then Joshua, all Israel with him, turned toward Debir and attacked it. He captured it, its king, and its villages. They killed everyone. They put everyone and everything under the holy curse. No survivors. Debir and its king got the same treatment as Hebron and its king, and Libnah and its king.

40-42 Joshua took the whole country: hills, desert, foothills, and mountain slopes, including all kings. He left no survivors. He carried out the holy curse on everything that breathed, just as God, the God of Israel, had commanded. Joshua's conquest stretched from Kadesh Barnea to Gaza and from the entire region of Goshen to Gibeon. Joshua took all these kings and their lands in a single campaign because God, the God of Israel, fought for Israel.

Joshua 11: 10-11 Then Joshua came back and took Hazor, killing its king. Early on Hazor had been head of all these kingdoms. They killed every person there, carrying out the holy curse—not a breath of life left anywhere. Then he burned down Hazor.
12-14 Joshua captured and massacred all the royal towns with their kings, the holy curse commanded by Moses the servant of God. But Israel didn't burn the cities that were built on mounds, except for Hazor—Joshua did burn down Hazor. The People of Israel plundered all the loot, including the cattle, from these towns for themselves. But they killed the people—total destruction. They left nothing human that breathed.



Joshua 11:15 Just as God commanded his servant Moses, so Moses commanded Joshua, and Joshua did it. He didn't leave incomplete one thing that God had commanded Moses.

Joshua 11:16-20 Joshua took the whole country: the mountains, the southern desert, all of Goshen, the foothills, the valley (the Arabah), and the Israel mountains with their foothills, from Mount Halak, which towers over the region of Seir, all the way to Baal Gad in the Valley of Lebanon in the shadows of Mount Hermon. He captured their kings and then killed them. Joshua fought against these kings for a long time. Not one town made peace with the People of Israel, with the one exception of the Hivites who lived in Gibeon. Israel fought and took all the rest. It was God's idea that they all would stubbornly fight the Israelites so he could put them under the holy curse without mercy. That way he could destroy them just as God had commanded Moses.

Joshua 11:21-22 Joshua came out at that time also to root out the Anakim from the hills, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, from the mountains of Judah, from the mountains of Israel. Joshua carried out the holy curse on them and their cities. No Anakim were left in the land of the People of Israel, except in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod—there were a few left there.

[True Disciple]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

I don't follow you

That's why marijuana is bad for you. It makes you incapable of understanding even the most basic logic there is. Put away that joint and start reading your Bible for a change!

You are right, the Bible does teach that. You should try reading the whole Bible sometime, though, because it clearly says EVERYONE will confess Jesus is Lord:

KJV:

Philippians 2:9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Message:

Philippians 2: 9-11Because of that obedience, God lifted him high and honored him far beyond anyone or anything, ever, so that all created beings in heaven and on earth—even those long ago dead and buried—will bow in worship before this Jesus Christ, and call out in praise that he is the Master of all, to the glorious honor of God the Father.

You're missing my point entirely. It wasn't the question whether all people would be saved or not. We disagree on that, of course, but it was not the issue here.

My point was: this very act of confessing that Jesus is Lord and believing in Him is what gets us Saved™. This is because Jesus' death on the Cross is an offer, and we still have to choose to accept it.

Well, I certainly did not do that on purpose, but perhaps you should recall Jesus' words about removing the beam from your eye...

What has happened to good old Exodus 20:16 (Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour)? Or have you cut that part out of your demonic bible as well?

I don't believe for a moment that you yourself believe that you have honestly tried to directly answer my questions. The point is, mr. Millennium, you are very, very mistaken about almost everything. But when people point this out to you, you just pick an unimportant sentence out of their post and start sidetracking them about this. This is, of course, blatantly dishonest and a sign of intellectual cowardice. Your refusal to answer the aionion question further confirms this. I'm amazed by your hypocrisy.

More proof you haven't read anything I've written I never said God didn't punish anyone. I clearly said I just don't believe in ETERNAL punishment.

Then I misunderstood you. Thanks for the correction! Now we can talk again about the eternal part!

Is Judah not a godly man? Does the Bible mention Judah doing anything wrong here?

Umm...he doesn't allow his daughter in law to marry yet another son of him, in contrast to what he promised, and he visits a prostitute. I consider those things wrong. If you do not, than please have the decency not to call yourself a Christian anymore. That can be confusing to people who seek the real message of True Christianity™.

While you can make the argument that the Job passage is just someone talking -

are you suggesting that the Psalmist (King David) and the preacher of Ecclesiastes (King Solomon) were not inspired by God in their writing?

Of course not, you retard. You should read those passages, instead of just copy-pasting them without checking whether they really support your arguments.

Solomon states that for some persons it might have been better to have never been born. However, the simple fact that they are born, means that God wanted them to, because He governs everything. This is because, and this is the point you seem to be deliberately evading, this passage claims it is bad for that person to be born. But that doesn't automatically mean that it is bad for God as well that that person was born.

And David is praying to God here. A person praying to God is not the same thing as God speaking. I don't understand how you ever could have mixed those two things up.

BEFORE

I formed thee in the belly.

Do you think life starts BEFORE conception, in that case Of course God knows, God knows everything that will happen.

It may very well be. But my point was, of course, and please do not shy away from this argument, that God clearly knew Jeremiah before he was born. That's what this entire discussion is about, isn't it?

Deuteronomy 2: 32-36 So Sihon and his entire army confronted us in battle at Jahaz. God handed him, his sons, and his entire army over to us and we utterly crushed them. While we were at it we captured all his towns and totally destroyed them, a holy destruction—men, women, and children. No survivors. We took the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured and carried them off for ourselves. From Aroer on the edge of the Brook Arnon and the town in the gorge, as far as Gilead, not a single town proved too much for us; God, our God, gave every last one of them to us.

Deuteronomy 3:3-7 So God, our God, also handed Og king of Bashan over to us—Og and all his people—and we utterly crushed them. Again, no survivors. At the same time we took all his cities. There wasn't one of the sixty cities that we didn't take—the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. All these cities were fortress cities with high walls and barred gates. There were also numerous unwalled villages. We totally destroyed them—a holy destruction. It was the same treatment we gave to Sihon king of Heshbon, a holy destruction of every city, man, woman, and child. But all the livestock and plunder from the cities we took for ourselves.

Joshua 10:28-40


No Survivors

28 That same day Joshua captured Makkedah, a massacre that included the king. He carried out the holy curse. No survivors. Makkedah's king got the same treatment as Jericho's king. 29-30 Joshua, all Israel with him, moved on from Makkedah to Libnah and fought against Libnah. God gave Libnah to Israel. They captured city and king and massacred the lot. No survivors. Libnah's king got the same treatment as Jericho's king.
31-32 Joshua, all Israel with him, moved on from Libnah to Lachish. He set up camp nearby and attacked. God gave Lachish to Israel. Israel took it in two days and killed everyone. He carried out the holy curse, the same as with Libnah.
33 Horam, king of Gezer, arrived to help Lachish. Joshua attacked him and his army until there was nothing left of them. No survivors.
34-35 Joshua, all Israel with him, moved on from Lachish to Eglon. They set up camp and attacked. They captured it and killed everyone, carrying out the holy curse, the same as they had done with Lachish.
36-37 Joshua, all Israel with him, went up from Eglon to Hebron. He attacked and captured it. They killed everyone, including its king, its villages, and their people. No survivors, the same as with Eglon. They carried out the holy curse on city and people.
38-39 Then Joshua, all Israel with him, turned toward Debir and attacked it. He captured it, its king, and its villages. They killed everyone. They put everyone and everything under the holy curse. No survivors. Debir and its king got the same treatment as Hebron and its king, and Libnah and its king.

40-42 Joshua took the whole country: hills, desert, foothills, and mountain slopes, including all kings. He left no survivors. He carried out the holy curse on everything that breathed, just as God, the God of Israel, had commanded. Joshua's conquest stretched from Kadesh Barnea to Gaza and from the entire region of Goshen to Gibeon. Joshua took all these kings and their lands in a single campaign because God, the God of Israel, fought for Israel.

Joshua 11: 10-11 Then Joshua came back and took Hazor, killing its king. Early on Hazor had been head of all these kingdoms. They killed every person there, carrying out the holy curse—not a breath of life left anywhere. Then he burned down Hazor.
12-14 Joshua captured and massacred all the royal towns with their kings, the holy curse commanded by Moses the servant of God. But Israel didn't burn the cities that were built on mounds, except for Hazor—Joshua did burn down Hazor. The People of Israel plundered all the loot, including the cattle, from these towns for themselves. But they killed the people—total destruction. They left nothing human that breathed.



Joshua 11:15 Just as God commanded his servant Moses, so Moses commanded Joshua, and Joshua did it. He didn't leave incomplete one thing that God had commanded Moses.

Joshua 11:16-20 Joshua took the whole country: the mountains, the southern desert, all of Goshen, the foothills, the valley (the Arabah), and the Israel mountains with their foothills, from Mount Halak, which towers over the region of Seir, all the way to Baal Gad in the Valley of Lebanon in the shadows of Mount Hermon. He captured their kings and then killed them. Joshua fought against these kings for a long time. Not one town made peace with the People of Israel, with the one exception of the Hivites who lived in Gibeon. Israel fought and took all the rest. It was God's idea that they all would stubbornly fight the Israelites so he could put them under the holy curse without mercy. That way he could destroy them just as God had commanded Moses.

Joshua 11:21-22 Joshua came out at that time also to root out the Anakim from the hills, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, from the mountains of Judah, from the mountains of Israel. Joshua carried out the holy curse on them and their cities. No Anakim were left in the land of the People of Israel, except in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod—there were a few left there.

Your point being...?

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

That's why marijuana is bad for you. It makes you incapable of understanding even the most basic logic there is. Put away that joint and start reading your Bible for a change!

I am not on marijuana, but I love and accept all those who are

You're missing my point entirely. It wasn't the question whether all people would be saved or not. We disagree on that, of course, but it was not the issue here.

But it DOES say everyone, right?

My point was: this very act of confessing that Jesus is Lord and believing in Him is what gets us Saved™. This is because Jesus' death on the Cross is an offer, and we still have to choose to accept it.

No, there is no choice involved.

What has happened to good old Exodus 20:16 (Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour)? Or have you cut that part out of your demonic bible as well?

I wasn't lying. Jesus really does talk about removing the beam from your own eye. It's in Matthew 7.

But when people point this out to you, you just pick an unimportant sentence out of their post and start sidetracking them about this.

I never did that Why are you so rude?

Then I misunderstood you. Thanks for the correction! Now we can talk again about the eternal part!

We already did, it was in another thread. I believe you posted a link to it earlier in this discussion, you should check it out.

Umm...he doesn't allow his daughter in law to marry yet another son of him, in contrast to what he promised, and he visits a prostitute. I consider those things wrong. If you do not, than please have the decency not to call yourself a Christian anymore. That can be confusing to people who seek the real message of True Christianity™.

Where does it say that in the text?

Solomon states that for some persons it might have been better to have never been born. However, the simple fact that they are born, means that God wanted them to, because He governs everything. This is because, and this is the point you seem to be deliberately evading, this passage claims it is bad for that person to be born. But that doesn't automatically mean that it is bad for God as well that that person was born.

Does it say that in the text, or are you inserting your own opinion there?

And David is praying to God here. A person praying to God is not the same thing as God speaking. I don't understand how you ever could have mixed those two things up.

So you don't believe Psalms to be inspired? Okay. You don't believe it should be a basis of doctrine because it's only "David praying to God"? You have no problem quoting the authority of David's prayers when it suits your purpose, like here: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showp...&postcount=677

or here: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showp...7&postcount=19

or here: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showp...&postcount=555

or here: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showp...05&postcount=1

or here: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showp...8&postcount=18

or here: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showp...6&postcount=58

Care to explain this discrepency?

It may very well be. But my point was, of course, and please do not shy away from this argument, that God clearly knew Jeremiah before he was born. That's what this entire discussion is about, isn't it?

Yes, but we are dealing with the hypothetical here. God knew Jeremiah, but Jeremiah was actually born. Where does it say God knows those who never were born and reached one month of age?

Your point being...?

God orders the killing of many women, but makes no reference to the fact that in a community, a good portion of those women might be pregnant.

[True Disciple]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

But it DOES say everyone, right?

It does. Just as it does in Revelation 21:4. However, the people in Hell are excluded from this, of course, as they are neither in Heaven or on Earth. Which is why Revelation 21:4 is followed up by Revelation 21:8, which speaks about people suffering in Hell, which is in apparent contradiction with 21:4, until you realize that 21:4 only applies to people in Heaven.

No, there is no choice involved.

I've proved with Scripture that this is not true. Just shouting "no" and whining about it does not change what God wrote in the Holy Bible, you know. It only brings you several steps closer to being eternally sodomized by demons with spiked tallywhackers in the Lake of Fire.

I wasn't lying. Jesus really does talk about removing the beam from your own eye. It's in Matthew 7.

Of course, as you would have realized if you had any brain worth mentioning, I wasn't talking about the part where you quoted Scripture, I was talking about you claiming being unintentionally misunderstanding you. That was a lie, and Jesus hates things like that, especially when you lie to a True Christian™.

I never did that Why are you so rude?

Yes, you did that. Don't make Jesus cry by lying to me again. And why I am a little firm with you? Because I draw inspiration from my Precious Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. He said the following when He encountered hypocrites like you who twisted God's Words to suit their own needs:

Matthew 23:13-28:
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

We already did, it was in another thread. I believe you posted a link to it earlier in this discussion, you should check it out.

Oh, I just thought you hadn't yet accepted the utter annihilation of your arguments and worldviews that happened there. I thought, "well, maybe he has some valid points left, which finally would prove some of his ideas right after all." You see, unlike you, I'm not running away from addressing important questions, and think you deserve a chance to bring in new arguments, if you have them. But if you don't have to say anything about it anymore, then we can just agree, of course, that aionian really means eternal.

Where does it say that in the text?

About prostitution:

1 Corinthians 6:13-20:
Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

And about breaking promises:

Leviticus 5:4-5:
Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these. And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing


I somehow missed the part that says "unless you are Judah" in one of the above Passages. Could you please point out to me where I can find that?

Does it say that in the text, or are you inserting your own opinion there?

Why are you stupid? What did your parents do to anger God so much that He cursed them with a retarded boy? You said the text indicated that God would condone abortion, I said the text said nothing of the sort. It's you who has to prove the Bible says that, not me who has to prove the Bible doesn't say that. Basic argumentation rules. Even you can understand that, I think.

So you don't believe Psalms to be inspired?

What on earth makes you think that? And you want me to believe that you do not deliberately misunderstand me? Why do you lie so much?

You don't believe it should be a basis of doctrine because it's only "David praying to God"?

No, you retard, of course it's a source of doctrine. It teaches the way we may pray for our enemies, as I indeed have often done.
But still, David praying is different from God giving orders. David also prays for the death of his enemies, but he only killed with God's permission, and prayed God to kill his enemies, as he realized that murder was legal only when either God did it or God ordered a man to do it.

Likewise, David isn't talking about abortion committed by humans, but by God (which is something else entirely).

To make it more clear, the Bible says that it is:

- not okay to manually abort babies
- is okay to pray God to do so.

Again, none of the Scripture you have referenced so far denies any of the above.

You have no problem quoting the authority of David's prayers when it suits your purpose, like here: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showp...&postcount=677

or here: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showp...7&postcount=19

or here: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showp...&postcount=555

or here: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showp...05&postcount=1

or here: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showp...8&postcount=18

or here: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showp...6&postcount=58

Care to explain this discrepency?

I think I've done that, mr. Millennium.

Yes, but we are dealing with the hypothetical here. God knew Jeremiah, but Jeremiah was actually born. Where does it say God knows those who never were born and reached one month of age?

The Bible gives no absolute verdict about this. However, the Bible does say that at least some people are known by God before they are born, and doesn't say anywhere that a person wasn't known by God before he was born. So at least some people are known by God as fetuses, and as we have no way to figure out which people are, we cannot make an informed decision when committing abortion, as we know God might already know that person, in which case it is murder.

Bible Logic isn't your strongest side, friend.

God orders the killing of many women, but makes no reference to the fact that in a community, a good portion of those women might be pregnant.

Yes. So what? I say abortion is murder. The killing of women is murder as well. As I've said before, murder is only justified when you are ordered by God to do so. Or do you think we should remove "thou shalt not kill" from the Bible as well?

[godly guy]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

i hope you burn in hell for saying this you unsaved heathen just remember what jesus did for you.

[Levi Jones]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

i hope you burn in hell for saying this you unsaved heathen just remember what jesus did for you.

Friend, you talk the talk, but do you truly walk with Jesus? I'm going to ask that you go to the The introduction forum and tell us more about yourself. Tell us what Church you attend, your favorite Bible verse and etc.

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Yes. So what? I say abortion is murder. The killing of women is murder as well. As I've said before, murder is only justified when you are ordered by God to do so. Or do you think we should remove "thou shalt not kill" from the Bible as well?

Oh well, the truth is a hard pill to swallow for you, it seems. I pray God removes your wilfull ignorance

[True Disciple]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Oh well, the truth is a hard pill to swallow for you, it seems. I pray God removes your wilfull ignorance

What is it that renders you unable to answer normal arguments? You seem a little confused lately. Maybe you have discovered that your false christian worldviews were about as biblical as Hitler's worldviews were. He was an abortionist, just like you.

Jesus has given you much more opportunities to get Saved™ then He gives most people; he even used me to explain to you what happens if you manage to miss yet another chance (hint: it's hot, and it's eternal). Don't you realize that all these missed chances will make you even feel worse when the Big Barbecue™ of Satan starts in the Lake of Fire? You only have to accept Jesus and become a True Christian™, and you'll attain eternal bliss instead of eternal torment!

[AngelKatie3]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

This offends me.