[Larry Lee]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

What, no mention of sanctifying grace through the holy sacraments?

I rebuke you in Jesus precious name! you misguided Papist.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

What, no mention of sanctifying grace through the holy sacraments?

Your "holy sacraments" aren't mentioned anywhere in the Bible, papist.

Go count your beads. This is a forum for Christians.

[True Disciple]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

I'm sorry, but what free will? I don't see how any will except God's is involved.

John 1:12-13: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Romans 9:16: So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This doesn't deny people choosing Salvation™ out of free will. The first verse speaks about "receiving the power to become the sons of God," which doesn't speak of Salvation™ directly, but of Gods reward for people accepting Salvation™.

The second verse is taken a little out of context (I thought a Pastor is supposed to set a good example here, but never mind). Let's include the preceding verses as well:

Romans 9:13-16:
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

As you can see, this is not about which people receive and which people receive not Salvation™, it just states that it is God's own choice whom He shows mercy and who not (and we already knew that, of course). And the Bible plainly teaches He shows mercy at people who accept Him, and accepting Him is a choice we are free to make ourselves:

Revelation 3:20:
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus clearly says here that it is the action of a man (opening the door) that allows people to accept Him and be Saved®. Predestination is heresy, as it is fundamentally opposed to Jesus' Own Words here!

I'm sorry, Brother, but I don't follow you. If God has picked you to be a Christian, you will be a Christian:

John 6:37-39: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

It's completely up to the Father.

No, dear Pastor, you're wrong, again. Read a little further, and we see:

John 6:44-45:
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

1. This Passage teaches that every man is sent by the father (all shall be taught of God).
2. Jesus actively calls people: come to me! If people didn't have free will, what sense would that make?

These Passages tells that no man can come unto Jesus without the Father drawing Him. However, it also teaches that God teaches all men to do this, and Jesus calling all men to do so, clearly proves that it is a choice we ourselves make. This further supports that:

1. Every person is predestined by God to go to Heaven, as I already said.
2. People are free to not come unto Jesus, and go to Hell.

I sincerely hope you aren't including heresies like this in your sermons, dear Pastor?

[TC Patriot]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

I don't see where all the confusion is.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

************************************************** ********

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Psalm 62:12 For you render to each one according to his works.

************************************************** *********

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth.... As it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. ************************************************** ******

Galatians 2:16 A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. Matthew 19:17 If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. ************************************************** ******
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. 1 Peter 1:17 The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.
It seems quite clear to me.

[Larry Lee]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

...one Godly baying after another...

It's good to see such passion for Holy Scripture. But Brother, I fail to see where we differ.

You say Jesus called out the Pharisees on their hypocrisy... and I agree.

I say Jesus called out the Pharisees on their bending of God's righteousness to meet public opinion... and you agree.

I say Jesus illustrated his condemnation of Pharisaic "know-it-all-ness" by slewing the fig tree... and you agree (although you prefer to parse the Pharasee's transgression as "unfruitfulness of the teachings of the Pharisees", which considering the Pharisees' considerable learning (you don't dispute that, do you?), is equivalent to saying Jesus condemned their "know-it-all-ness"; so, our disagreement is one of form, rather than substance).

None of which, of course, disputes the fact that the Hebe Pharisees crucified our precious Lord in a vain attempt to bolster their popularity with the masses.

[Larry Lee]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

It seems quite clear to me.

Aye, Brother TCP. But, were you -- personally -- predestined since the foundation of the world? and how do you feel about that?

[Levi Jones]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

I admit that this Passage seems to imply that works would be important. However, I think Paul means here with "what he hath done," whether a person accepted Jesus Christ as the Lord and Saviour™ or not. It's the only way it can be fitted in with the rest of the Bible.



Well, about following the Law to the letter, didn't Jesus Himself say:

Matthew 5:17-19:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Are you suggesting that we should disobey this Passage and not follow the Law to the Letter?

Of course we should and that's how we know that Works is the path to Salvation®. You see? It's all very logical. And I spell Salvation it with an ® instead of a ™. You should too!!

Brother Levi, what is this? Are you feeling alright? Have you given in to Pentecostal heresies? Should I call an exorcist? Or do you prefer a moderator?

Brothers, this is becoming serious. One of you is advocating Salvation™ through works instead op faith, and starts behaving like a Pentecostal, while the other apparently advocates the division of the indivisible Holy KJV into parts we should and shouldn't follow. I think you both should swallow your words right now. Before the ladies discover this thread!

I'm not sure what came over me. It could have been the Holy Spirit.

I suddenly feel like faith healing with snakes!

Mark 16:17-18
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

[True Disciple]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

It's good to see such passion for Holy Scripture. But Brother, I fail to see where we differ.

You say Jesus called out the Pharisees on their hypocrisy... and I agree.

I say Jesus called out the Pharisees on their bending of God's righteousness to meet public opinion... and you agree.

I say Jesus illustrated his condemnation of Pharisaic "know-it-all-ness" by slewing the fig tree... and you agree (although you prefer to parse the Pharasee's transgression as "unfruitfulness of the teachings of the Pharisees", which considering the Pharisees' considerable learning (you don't dispute that, do you?), is equivalent to saying Jesus condemned their "know-it-all-ness"; so, our disagreement is one of form, rather than substance).

None of which, of course, disputes the fact that the Hebe Pharisees crucified our precious Lord in a vain attempt to bolster their popularity with the masses.

We disagree at just one point, in fact.

1. I said that Jesus didn't condemn the Pharisees because of their know-it-allness, but because of their hypocrisy. I do not dispute that the pharisees knew a lot. But why would knowing a lot about the Law be in any way offensive to Jesus? Didn't God Himself say in the Old Testament:

Deuteronomy 6:6-9:
And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

So I think we can safely say that the assertion that Jesus would be annoyed by the Pharisees knowledge of the Law ("know-it-allness") is nothing short of ridiculous.

Again, the reason Jesus disliked the Pharisees was because of their selective adherence to the Law, and the way they taught the people about the Law, without practicing what they preached. Also, and I maybe should have brought this up before, the Pharisees added an oral tradition to the Law, which Jesus opposed. This is why Jesus says to them:

Matthew 15:3-9:
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Of course we should and that's how we know that Works is the path to Salvation®. You see? It's all very logical.

This passage teaches that we should obey the Law. It doesn't say anywhere that failure to do so will make people miss out Salvation™. In fact, Scripture teaches the following:

Romans 3:28:
A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Scripture or it didn't happen, Brother.

And I spell Salvation it with an ® instead of a ™. You should too!!

What heresy is this?

I'm not sure what came over me. It could have been the Holy Spirit.
I suddenly feel like faith healing with snakes!

Mark 16:17-18
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Are you going to drink poison, Brother? May I suggest that you discuss this with the Senior Pastors first? You know, just to be sure that this verse really applies to you?

[Levi Jones]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

Romans 3:28:
A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Scripture or it didn't happen, Brother.

Around and around it goes!

Without works faith is dead!

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

[Levi Jones]

"Faith vs Works"

You faith only people are crazy.

You will be judged by your works! Look no further than Revelation 20:12.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Re: "Faith vs Works"

You faith only people are crazy.

You will be judged by your works! Look no further than Revelation 20:12.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

As I have said before in many sermons, works follow faith. In fact, faith and works are one in the same. You can't do good works without faith, and if you're not doing good works you never had the faith to begin with. We True Christians(tm) are free from sin and continue not to sin (1 John 3:6-9) because we have been washed by Christ's blood (Rev. 1:5) because we have faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:15-16).

So really, what it all comes down to is faith, since by having faith you will not sin. When the Bible says it will judge people according to works it is talking about whether or not people truly have faith that Christ is their savior.

Of course, the other option is that the Bible is contradictory (in some places it says faith, other places say works, other places say faith and works, etc.) but we know that simply cannot be the case.

[Levi Jones]

Re: "Faith vs Works"

As I have said before in many sermons, works follow faith. In fact, faith and works are one in the same. You can't do good works without faith, and if you're not doing good works you never had the faith to begin with. We True Christians™ are free from sin and continue not to sin (1 John 3:6-9) because we have been washed by Christ's blood (Rev. 1:5) because we have faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:15-16).

So really, what it all comes down to is faith, since by having faith you will not sin. When the Bible says it will judge people according to works it is talking about whether or not people truly have faith that Christ is their savior.

Of course, the other option is that the Bible is contradictory (in some places it says faith, other places say works, other places say faith and works, etc.) but we know that simply cannot be the case.

Faith is subservient to works. I show my faith by my works James 2:18.

I show my faith by preaching the Word and being a faithful servant. That is what Christianity is about.

Let your light (faith) so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Belief is not enough.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That is the key. He that does the will of God.

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Re: "Faith vs Works"

Levi, with all due respect, there's a reason why you're a youth pastor here at our church, while I get the cozy salaried position of senior pastor. And not to brag, but I do have a Th.D. and a Ph.D. under my belt, along with 45 years of pastoral experience, so I think I know a thing or two more than you.

Faith is subservient to works. I show my faith by my works James 2:18.

Actually, James 2:18 simply affirms my point: That faith creates works.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Faith is not subservient to works. Faith is the utmost importance. The point that James is making in the above verse is that you show your faith via your works, but your works do not cause faith. Faith is a tree and works are the fruit. Jesus Himself tells us we will know men by their fruits [works] (Matt. 7:20).

By no means am I saying works are unimportant, what I'm saying is that works flow naturally from those who have faith. Faith is what is required for Salvation®. As Paul tells us in Galatians...

Galatians 2;16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I show my faith by preaching the Word and being a faithful servant. That is what Christianity is about.

Yes, that is true.

Belief is not enough.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That is the key. He that does the will of God.

But read it in context. What do the following verses say?

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus says even if you do good works, it is not enough. You can pretend to be a Christian all you want and even do the works, but if you do not have the faith, then it is meaningless.

[Levi Jones]

Re: "Faith vs Works"

Levi, with all due respect, there's a reason why you're a youth pastor here at our church, while I get the cozy salaried position of senior pastor. And not to brag, but I do have a Th.D. and a Ph.D. under my belt, along with 45 years of pastoral experience, so I think I know a thing or two more than you.

I certainly do appreciate the musings of such an "experienced" person as yourself.

I am just now going for my masters. I know. It is a grind. I am actually studying the Word constantly working on my thesis.

Lucky you. You get to phone it in week after week using old material. I thought your sermon last week on the evils of young boys wearing pants was so timely.

Faith is not subservient to works. Faith is the utmost importance. The point that James is making in the above verse is that you show your faith via your works, but your works do not cause faith. Faith is a tree and works are the fruit. Jesus Himself tells us we will know men by their fruits [works] (Matt. 7:20).

How can you say faith is less important than works, when works is what we are ultimately judged by? We are judged by what we have done and said. Matthew 12:36-37, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 19:17, Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:29, Revelation 2:23, Revelation 20:13, Revelation 22:12

By no means am I saying works are unimportant, what I'm saying is that works flow naturally from those who have faith. Faith is what is required for Salvation®. As Paul tells us in Galatians...

Galatians 2;16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I would quote 1 John 3:7-8 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Works would also include the abstinence of sin. God's scales of justice. It is a system upon where we are judged by what we have done not if we walk around saying, "praise Jesus."

Jesus says even if you do good works, it is not enough. You can pretend to be a Christian all you want and even do the works, but if you do not have the faith, then it is meaningless.

If you don't do the works, you are not showing that you don't have faith.

Are we seriously disagreeing over the Word? Could it be that it does not always agree with itself?

Nah, never mind. That's just silly talk. You want to play golf Saturday?

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Re: "Faith vs Works"

Are we seriously disagreeing over the Word? Could it be that it does not always agree with itself?

Let's look at the evidence. You and others have shown Biblical proof that salvation is through works. I and others have shown Biblical proof that salvation is through faith. Certainly, a misguided person might be tempted to believe the notion that the Bible says two seperate things and is therefore inerrant. This same misguided person might then assume that the Bible is not the Word of God® for the simple fact that it can't get a basic concept like Salvation® straight.

They will then scour the Bible looking for more purported contradictions. This will erase their faith. They will start seeing the Bible as some fallible document written by various imperfect Bronze Age human authors as a means to give authority to their own personal beliefs.

We can't let that happen! So, the best thing to do is to concede your points and admit defeat.

Nah, never mind. That's just silly talk. You want to play golf Saturday?

You know it! Although, I'm getting tired of the Freehold Country Club. How about we take a quick jaunt to Scottsdale and play at the Camelback. I usually do well there. We can take my jet. I can have it ready by tomorrow afternoon.