[Brother Temperance]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

Gosh, did I say anywhere on the forum that I'm a woman hater?

Do you believe that women are allowed to teach in Church? No, because you believe that women are inferior, and rightly so.

[Sister Noddy]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

Do you believe that women are allowed to teach in Church? No, because you believe that women are inferior, and rightly so.

Well women are certainly not allowed to teach in your church, Brother T, but we already know that.

We are allowed to teach -- and preach -- in mine. Not only allowed, women are qualified academics in my church who have earned degrees in theology, who are professors with PhDs, and teach at the Divinity School which is affliated with the University in my city.

And of course you already know that in the Episcopal Church of the USA women with a Masters of Divinity degree may go through Process to Holy Orders and be ordained as clergy.

Do I believe women are inferior to men? A big fat NO! -- inferior neither in church nor society nor in family structure nor in marriage.

... hope that answers it for yooooooou, a humble noddy

[Brother Temperance]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

Well women are certainly not allowed to teach in your church, Brother T, but we already know that.

We are allowed to teach -- and preach -- in mine. Not only allowed, women are qualified academics in my church who have earned degrees in theology, who are professors with PhDs, and teach at the Divinity School which is affliated with the University in my city.

And of course you already know that in the Episcopal Church of the USA women with a Masters of Divinity degree may go through Process to Holy Orders and be ordained as clergy.

Do I believe women are inferior to men? A big fat NO! -- inferior neither in church nor society nor in family structure nor in marriage.

... hope that answers it for yooooooou, a humble noddy

Blasphemer! How do you reconcile any of that nonsense with this:
1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.



or:


1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


And why did you boast:

Yes, Pastor Zeke, I agree.

Would you believe me if I tell you that at my church I don't give sermons? I am a communion minister only, a chalice (cup) bearer at the altar; but I don't preach or teach, and don't speak except to repeat the Holy words of distribution.

[Sister Noddy]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

... And why did you boast:

Yes, Pastor Zeke, I agree.

Would you believe me if I tell you that at my church I don't give sermons? I am a communion minister only, a chalice (cup) bearer at the altar; but I don't preach or teach, and don't speak except to repeat the Holy words of distribution

Oooooooooh Brother Temperance, you are very quick to find the scripture you need to prove your point, and whatever earlier post of mine on the board to try to demonstrate an inconsistency on my part.

But the facts are, many centuries have passed since holy men wrote those verses, and they were true in the society in which they lived at the time, but no longer true in our modern day. Anyway, there are parts of the Bible that are describing the laws of society in those times, not the divine laws of God, and these verses you've picked are examples.

And as for my own role in the Church, I'm not ordained clergy and not a professor, I'm a lay eucharistic minister, and we don't preach or give sermons.

... again hoping this helps to explain it, brother

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

But the facts are, many centuries have passed since holy men wrote those verses, and they were true in the society in which they lived at the time, but no longer true in our modern day.

Why not?
And who decided they "weren't true" anymore? Certainly not God!

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:8

Jesus doesn't change, and as such, neither would ANY True Christian..
NOBODY who "changes with the times" is a real Christian. NOT ONE!

Anyway, there are parts of the Bible that are describing the laws of society in those times, not the divine laws of God, and these verses you've picked are examples.

The laws of society?
They are describing the rules of the CHURCH, not society.. Didn't you even read the verses?
They are God's laws for how to run a Church, and I'd dare you to find scripture stating the contrary!


Also, Christians were not really a part of society in the days those were first written.
Rather, we Christians were shunned and persecuted. Just as we are today.

[Sister Noddy]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

First Mr Salvation, it is important to understand that your church believes the Bible was written by God about man; and my church, and most mainstream denonimations, believe the opposite, that the Bible was written by men about God.

Your fundie church thinks God dictated the Bible; and we think many different authors, religious men in their time, wrote the original scriptures.

Furthermore, non-religious people think the Bible is folklore, and literature only, and has no meaning other than that.

BIG DIFFERENCE! Same Bible and same scriptures, completely different meanings.

Why not?
And who decided they "weren't true" anymore? Certainly not God!

Human society has decided they aren't true anymore. Face it.

Jesus doesn't change, and as such, neither would ANY True Christian ...
NOBODY who "changes with the times" is a real Christian. NOT ONE!

This statement is true for literalist fundamentalists who believe the Bible was written by God, but not true for the rest of us; and there are many more of us than there are of you.

Why? because we use our minds, and we understand logic and reason. There is nothing supernatural in the natural world, and Christianity was founded on symbolism by the Romans for the purpose of power.

In fact, if it weren't for the Roman Empire, no one today would ever have heard of Jesus, his life and ministry would be long forgotten; and there would be no Bible.

Even the early Romans didn't believe it, and Constantine remained a pagan throughout his reign, and was baptized only on his death bed.

The laws of society?
They are describing the rules of the CHURCH, not society ... Didn't you even read the verses?

The laws of society were dictated by religion in those days; but not in modern society.

Also, Christians were not really a part of society in the days those were first written.
Rather, we Christians were shunned and persecuted. Just as we are today.

Again, this was before the Romans founded Christianity as a religion; they were a small sect or cult within Judaism in those centuries between the crucifixion of Jesus and the founding of Christianity in 325 AD.

Just a note from noddy ...

... even though I have some academic background in theology, I am not a theologian or a priest, so to get the best explanation of Anglican-Episcopal church doctrine in the United States, go to the sourse, go HERE ...

[Mrs. Mary Whitford]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

The Bible isn't a salad bar, it's a FULL MEAL DEAL and only those who clean their plates are going to go to Heaven!
So what makes you decide what is true and what isn't in the Bible? Do you go through it flipping a coin, or do you just think, "Oh, I don't like that part so it doesn't matter any more"? That's assuming you've read the whole book in the first place, of course.
I do have to say, the "God" you claim to believe in isn't very powerful. Apparently He allowed a bunch of men centuries ago write a book that is supposed to teach the world about Him and salvation without any guidance from Him at all, not being aware that a couple of thousand years later, people would decide that this part doesn't matter anymore, that part doesn't matter anymore... How long before you decide that the temporary sacrifice of His only begotten Son, Jesus, doesn't matter anymore?
No. God is amazingly powerful and knowledgeable. He personally wrote His Word down through His human dictation takers and wrote that Word to stand solid through the centuries until the End Times!
Sin has taken over the world, most people are full of arrogance and pride, and He saw that coming so that's why He gave us a book that serves as a rock to which we can secure ourselves, one that doesn't give way to the fickle tides of human whim!
I feel sorry for you. I do believe you honestly think you're in the right Church, but Satan as so blinded you to the truth that when Judgement Day comes, you will be in for a horrifying shock. But Jesus brought you here for a reason. You needed to find a Bible-believing church to help you find your way to real salvation, and we are THE Bible-believing church! Turn your life over to Jesus today, please! I would love to see you up in Heaven with us!

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

First Mr Salvation, it is important to understand that your church believes the Bible was written by God about man; and my church, and most mainstream denonimations, believe the opposite, that the Bible was written by men about God.

That's because you trust in men instead of God, and your faith is weak & pathetic:
Jesus hate the lukewarm.

Your fundie church thinks God dictated the Bible; and we think many different authors, religious men in their time, wrote the original scriptures.

And we're right and you're wrong-
The Bible has NEVER been proven wrong in any way.. just how could men write such a book without God's dictation?

Furthermore, non-religious people think the Bible is folklore, and literature only, and has no meaning other than that.

So?
I could think you're a frog, does that make it truth?
The opinon of fools is of no concern.

BIG DIFFERENCE! Same Bible and same scriptures, completely different meanings.

Yet only one can be right.

Human society has decided they aren't true anymore. Face it.

Yes, I know they have "decided" such.. thanks for admitting it;
That it's all opinon with men, and that it matters not.

They THINK it doesn't matter anymore. But does "human society" somehow know better? (than us) Is the majority always right? Are there several truths even though they are in opposition?
No, of course NOT.

This statement is true for literalist fundamentalists who believe the Bible was written by God, but not true for the rest of us; and there are many more of us than there are of you.

What a load of crap. You can't have several truths if they contradict each other.

Truth 1: Minister is in your username here.
Truth 2: Noddy is in your username here.
That's two valid truths.

But of these two:
1: Your full username here is noddy.
2: Your full username here is minister noddy.
Only ONE can be true.

Truth is truth. Period.
Also, there are more flies in the world than humans, so does that make eating horsedung a good idea?
The "majority-argument" is a real stupid one, mostly used by those with nothing real to say on a matter.. (Look in the mirror!)

Why? because we use our minds, and we understand logic and reason. There is nothing supernatural in the natural world, and Christianity was founded on symbolism by the Romans for the purpose of power.

Are you saying that I don't use logic and reason? Get real.
Second, you speak that as if was fact, when it's not.

As for logic and reason, human logic is flawed:
It's flawed by the limited understanding of man, and the limited knowledge of man.

Wisdom that doesn't originate from the Holy Spirit can never gain the truth, come close maybe, but not truly understand something.

In fact, if it weren't for the Roman Empire, no one today would ever have heard of Jesus, his life and ministry would be long forgotten; and there would be no Bible.

Blasphemy!
God is all-powerful, and He can use whoever, or whatever, He pleases to preserve His Holy Word.

He doesn't need man to do it.

Even the early Romans didn't believe it, and Constantine remained a pagan throughout his reign, and was baptized only on his death bed.

Not true. I strongly suggest that you pick up a history book.

The laws of society were dictated by religion in those days; but not in modern society.

Modern huh? Do you mean technologically.. or culturally?
Cause we sure ain't making progress on the latter, society is becoming more and more decadent and evil;
Because people has turned their back on God.

Again, this was before the Romans founded Christianity as a religion; they were a small sect or cult within Judaism in those centuries between the crucifixion of Jesus and the founding of Christianity in 325 AD.

So they founded an already existing faith?
Pray tell, just how does one do that?
Stop being such a blind tool of satan.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

Oooooooooh Brother Temperance, you are very quick to find the scripture you need to prove your point, and whatever earlier post of mine on the board to try to demonstrate an inconsistency on my part.

And as for my own role in the Church, I'm not ordained clergy and not a professor, I'm a lay eucharistic minister, and we don't preach or give sermons.

Do you believe women should be able to give sermons or not, you misogynist hypocrite? Let's look at the context in which you originally made that statement:

Hold on a minute there. It is the HOLY BIBLE that says women are not to teach or speak out in church, not us. If you think that's unfair, then take it up with God.

Yes, Pastor Zeke, I agree.

Would you believe me if I tell you that at my church I don't give sermons? I am a communion minister only, a chalice (cup) bearer at the altar; but I don't preach or teach, and don't speak except to repeat the Holy words of distribution.

Well? Do you agree, or are you just a liar?

Furthermore, non-religious people think the Bible is folklore, and literature only, and has no meaning other than that.

And? Mahommedans think blowing up innocent people and raping little girls all the livelong day is a good way to go about things, are you going to cite their opinion next?

Human society has decided they aren't true anymore. Face it.

So you take the words of humans above those of God?

Why? because we use our minds, and we understand logic and reason. There is nothing supernatural in the natural world, and Christianity was founded on symbolism by the Romans for the purpose of power.

Really? I was under the impression that Christianity was founded on the death and resurrection of Christ by a number of ex-Jewish reformers. Or do you deny the resurrection as well? And do you really think the early Christians had that much power?

Even the early Romans didn't believe it, and Constantine remained a pagan throughout his reign, and was baptized only on his death bed.

Right, so they didn't believe in Christianity, even though they founded it to get power? Wouldn't it have made more sense to found something they did believe in?

The laws of society were dictated by religion in those days; but not in modern society.

You think the laws of society were dictated by the Bible when the Bible was written? When the Bible wants a break with existing social norms, it's very clear on the subject (or do you think everyone circumcised their children and avoided shellfish before the Bible was written as well?). If the laws of society were the same as religious laws, why did the proto-Catholic pervert Augustine make such a big distinction between the city of God and the Earthly City? It's not just a reflection of existing social norms, it's a statement of how GOD wants the ideal society to function; and it just so happens that GOD wants women to be oppressed. Hard luck.

[Sister Noddy]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

The Bible isn't a salad bar, it's a FULL MEAL DEAL and only those who clean their plates are going to go to Heaven!

So what makes you decide what is true and what isn't in the Bible? Do you go through it flipping a coin, or!

Thanks for your reply, Sister Mary Maria.

Since we believe the scriptures are actually a collection of stories, histories & geneologies, poetry and letters, we interpret each according to what it meant at the time it was written.

No. God is amazingly powerful and knowledgeable. He personally wrote His Word down through His human dictation takers and wrote that Word to stand solid through the centuries until the End Times!

In every generation, religious men and women have believed the 'end times' were going to have happened in their own lifespans. The planet is still here and very much alive. There are no End Times. In some four billion years from now, when the sun expands into its red giant phase, our earth will be engulfed in its hot gasses; and in that day will come the end of time for our descendants, if there are any still living here.

You needed to find a Bible-believing church to help you find your way to real salvation, and we are THE Bible-believing church! Turn your life over to Jesus today, please! I would love to see you up in Heaven with us!

Thanks for your kind words here, Sister, it seems this is the only time you have posted a welcome of any kind to me on the board.

Let me tell you a story in short form: I was raised Presbyterian, but never related very much to church. I dropped religion altogether for many years. About twenty years ago I rented a room in the house of a woman who was a Pentecostal.

She spoke in tongues and acted like a demon-possessed mad-woman, and she demanded that if I didn't go to church with her and believe the same, she would throw me out of the house.

One night she came home from Bible-banging Holy Roller session at her demonic-possessed church, broke the door of my room off the hinges and attacked me. I was slightly injured and part of my hair had been torn out of my scalp by her.

Her son came running into the room and dragged his mother down the hall, locked her in her bedroom, and called the police ... on his own mother. Friends of mine came over in the middle of the night and moved my stuff out of her house, and into theirs.

I was lucky the bitch didn't kill me.

I became a fullblown atheist. Then in 1999 I joined the Episcopal Church, and have been happy ever since. It's the most beautiful church I've ever known, and I am honored to serve; I am still an atheist.

I will never again believe as a fundamentalist, I'm sorry, it's absolutely crazy.

... with affection and best regards Sister MM, from noddy

[Sister Noddy]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

Do you believe women should be able to give sermons or not, you misogynist hypocrite? ...

... and it just so happens that GOD wants women to be oppressed. Hard luck.

Short answer for you here, Brother Temperance, meaning no disrespect.

Take a look at my post above to Sister Mary Maria. I am both and atheist and confirmed practicing member and minister of the Episcopal Church. This does not present a problem of inconsistency for me, there is no contradiction.

Some of my replies on this board are according to my church doctrine, and others are my own personal belief or opinion. By atheist I should clarify that I believe in God and the Holy Spirit, but not the Bible.

... hoping that makes sense, nods

(expecting to get slammed again)

[Mrs. Mary Whitford]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

I became a fullblown atheist. Then in 1999 I joined the Episcopal Church, and have been happy ever since. It's the most beautiful church I've ever known, and I am honored to serve; I am still an atheist.

So you think you don't believe in God at all (everyone knows He exists except for fools who are so angry at Him that they refuse to acknowledge His existence). As an "atheist", why go to a church at all (and thank you for proving that your "church" is not only false, but a hotbed of atheism and a tool of Satan)? You obviously feel a need to go to one, yet if God doesn't exist, that need wouldn't be there, would it? You can just as easily join many other organizations where you can get a feeling of community and service. But instead you join a church (albeit a false one). That makes as much sense as Brother Monty becoming a registered Demoncrat. Except for one thing.
Jesus.
The Lord is calling to you, but you are resisting. So instead of a Bible-believing Baptist church, you went and joined the Anglican'ts. That emptiness is still gnawing away at you though, as the Anglican'ts aren't fulfilling that need inside of you. They can't. And so you found your way here, and you keep coming back.
Jesus is calling to you, but you keep fighting.
You were thrown off by a demon-possessed Pentecostal. Of course you were! They're all demon-possessed! That's what comes of joining a false church. You're possessed as well, but the demons in your skull aren't making you violent, they're just muddying your thinking. They don't want you to let Jesus into your heart, or they will be driven out!
I'm praying for you, Noddy, and I will keep praying for you until you find salvation or until it's too late.

[Mrs. Mary Whitford]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

By atheist I should clarify that I believe in God and the Holy Spirit, but not the Bible.

So now you're just redefining words as you see fit? "Atheist" is clearly defined as not believing in God (though that definition is lacking, as I have clearly explained that everyone knows God exists).
Can I go ahead and call myself a coffee, and by "coffee" I mean a married woman? Of course I can't, because the word has a definite definition!
You are horribly confused, those demons in your skull have done their work, that's for sure.

[Sister Noddy]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

So now you're just redefining words as you see fit? "Atheist" is clearly defined as not believing in God (though that definition is lacking, as I have clearly explained that everyone knows God exists).

Can I go ahead and call myself a coffee, and by "coffee" I mean a married woman? Of course I can't, because the word has a definite definition!
You are horribly confused, those demons in your skull have done their work, that's for sure.

Okay Sister, let me come to terms with the definitions. Instead of an atheist, call me a Christian who supports modern science and rejects the supernatural parts of Christianity as found in the Bible; who interprets things like the creation story, Adam and Eve, Jonah and the Whale, Noah's Ark as stories; and the miracles and resurrections of dead people as symbolic.

I believe the miracles were metaphor, and the resurrection was in the spirit; and that it is biologically impossible for a dead body to regenerate.

So let us say that I believe it all, but in symbolism.

I will say that certainly when I am up there at that altar giving the Chalice during Holy Communion, I can feel the Holy Spirit moving inside me; in fact I become transparent, a mere vessel for the offering of the sacraments. I believe that God called me to the Episcopal Church.

... again, thank you for your prayers Sister, noddy

[Mrs. Mary Whitford]

Re: I am Lionheart: a blasphemer and self-styled prophet

Instead of an atheist, call me a Christian who supports modern science and rejects the supernatural parts of Christianity as found in the Bible; who interprets things like the creation story, Adam and Eve, Jonah and the Whale, Noah's Ark as stories; and the miracles and resurrections of dead people as symbolic.

Be sure of this... Until you embrace the Bible and therefore Jesus, I will never call you a Christian. A false Christian, sure, but that's about it.