[BibleDefender]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

Then why does God proscribe it as a punishment for certain crimes? Stoning is a slow painful way to die as opposed to hanging or beheading of which were both known about even then.

Old testament bro. It was nailed to the cross.

Col 2:14-15
14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[a]

Maybe we should only beat the evil doers?

I offer you John 8:7.
John 8:7
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

As per your Luke 12 passage, if you read the whole thing you will see it is speaking about the end of days.

Watchfulness

35 “Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36 like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak. 39 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

41 Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”
42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

Old testament bro. It was nailed to the cross.

Col 2:14-15
14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[a]

Was it?

Most of the New Testament comes from the Old.

Matthew 22:37-39 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Where did Jesus get those sayings from?

Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus 19:17-18 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

What did Jesus say when Satan tried to tempt Him?

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Where did Jesus get that from?

Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

So tell me where Jesus came to abolish the law?

As lain out in Matthew 5? Perhaps you have read it.

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I offer you John 8:7.
John 8:7
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

As per your Luke 12 passage, if you read the whole thing you will see it is speaking about the end of days.

Fortunately, we are without sin as Christians. Pass me a rock!!!

Psalm 119:1-4 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.

Here God tells Abraham that perfection is achievable.

Genesis 17:1 I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

I can hear some panties getting into a twist over these scriptures. Perhaps you think, that's Old Testament. The Bible says, "for all have sinned." That was prior to our Salvation. I would like to draw your attention to:

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

How could we not be perfect if Jesus himself admonishes us to be perfect?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

In the Book of Luke, Jesus tells us that in becoming perfect, we are like God.

Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

In many of the Epistles, the authors tell us that we are perfect and can be "unblameable in holiness," like our Master Who is in Heaven.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Philippians 3:15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Luke 1:5-6 THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

God speaking to Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

David speaking to God.

Psalm 101:2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.

[BibleDefender]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

@Levi Jones

I offer you 1 John.

The Incarnation of the Word of Life

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[a] joy complete.
Light and Darkness, Sin and Forgiveness

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

@Levi Jones

I offer you 1 John.

That is prior to salvation. Why would John write that and then purposely contradict himself two chapters later.

I offer you 1 John.

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[BibleDefender]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

Also, while the Old Testament is often quoted. It is no longer binding.

Hebrews 8:8-13

8 But God found fault with the people and said[a]:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[b] 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Also, by your logic. Since you are an ex-masterbator you looked upon a woman with lust. Just looking upon a woman with lust, is adultery. OT punishment for adultery should be stoning to death. You sir, should be stoned to death based on this.

Adultery

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

[BibleDefender]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

That is prior to salvation. Why would John write that and then purposely contradict himself two chapters later.

I offer you 1 John.

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This is telling us to run from sin. That we should not sin. It does not mean that the sins we indulge in are not sin in the eyes of God.

1 John 3 (King James Version)


1 John 3


1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

The passage doesn't say sin is not possible, but that we must NOT INDULGE. We must avoid it at all costs.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

Also, while the Old Testament is often quoted. It is no longer binding.

So when Jesus says that man should live by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God while quoting the Old Testament, He doesn't really mean we should live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Jesus is obviously contradicting Himself.

How is blasphemy working out for you?

Also, by your logic. Since you are an ex-masterbator you looked upon a woman with lust. Just looking upon a woman with lust, is adultery. OT punishment for adultery should be stoning to death. You sir, should be stoned to death based on this.

You can read minds too? Wow, the LORD has truly blessed you.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

The passage doesn't say sin is not possible, but that we must NOT INDULGE. We must avoid it at all costs.

The part you just bolded..

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he (Jesus) is pure.

You haven't refuted anything. You are merely twisting scripture to justify your false doctrine of total depravity. What difficulty are you having with this?

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

This is telling us to run from sin. That we should not sin. It does not mean that the sins we indulge in are not sin in the eyes of God.
The passage doesn't say sin is not possible, but that we must NOT INDULGE. We must avoid it at all costs.

Yes, and if we do manage to not sin, and we do not indulge in sin, does that make us sinners or not?
Oh, and as far as the Old Testament goes:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What do you consider to be a good source of information on what the will of Jesus' Father is, if not His Commandments?

[BibleDefender]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

So when Jesus says that man should live by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God while quoting the Old Testament, He doesn't really mean we should live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

You are misquoting this passage. He says, that you cannot as a Christian live without reading the bible.

Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness

1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]” 11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

Jesus is obviously contradicting Himself.

No, I just think you need to learn how KJV english works. It is an antquified language, and as such many things have different meanings compared to words of today. Either entirely different or slightly modified.

How is blasphemy working out for you?

It does not say, "follow OT laws". To be quite frank, the OT laws have been done away with.

The OT laws addressed the Exterior. The adultery. The NT deals with the interior. The lust. This is why Christ said, if you look upon a woman with lust, you have already committed adultery with her in your heart.

You can read minds too? Wow, the LORD has truly blessed you.

It's on your profile, and next to your picture on every post you make.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

I'm still waiting for you to explain whether you think Jesus has the power to wash sins away and keep us from sin. When the Bible says "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him", does that mean that no-one has known Jesus ever?

[Levi Jones]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

You are misquoting this passage. He says, that you cannot as a Christian live without reading the bible.

Now, live by doesn't actually mean live by. It means we should read it, but not follow it?

And you are saying I don't understand the Bible.

No, I just think you need to learn how KJV english works. It is an antquified language, and as such many things have different meanings compared to words of today. Either entirely different or slightly modified.

Ah, attack my understanding of the Baskerville English. Let's look and see what other translations say.


New International Version (©1984)
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"New Living Translation (©2007)
But Jesus told him, "No! The Scriptures say, 'People do not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
English Standard Version (©2001)
But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"
International Standard Version (©2008)
But he answered, "It is written, 'One must not live on bread alone, but on every word coming out of the mouth of God.'"
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus answered, "Scripture says, 'A person cannot live on bread alone but on every word that God speaks.'"
American King James Version
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, It is in the Writings, Bread is not man's only need, but every word which comes out of the mouth of God.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God's mouth.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Weymouth New Testament
"It is written," replied Jesus, "'It is not on bread alone that a man shall live, but on whatsoever God shall appoint.'"
World English Bible
But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"
Young's Literal Translation
But he answering said, 'It hath been written, Not upon bread alone doth man live, but upon every word coming forth from the mouth of God.'


But it's my misunderstanding of what Jesus said.

It does not say, "follow OT laws". To be quite frank, the OT laws have been done away with.

To be quite frank, no they haven't. Let's look at Matthew 5, since you seem to be so keen on quoting it.

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

It's on your profile, and next to your picture on every post you make.

And I'm telling you, you have no idea what thoughts went through my head. Your assumption that I was looking at a woman with lust in my heart could be completely off base. I would hardly call a few adolescent emergency sessions in the middle of the night as looking at a woman with lust in my heart.

[BibleDefender]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

The part you just bolded..

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he (Jesus) is pure.

Yes, we are to refrain from sin. That does not mean we conquer it. Also, you are not pure and are already tainted with sin.

You haven't refuted anything. You are merely twisting scripture to justify your false doctrine of total depravity. What difficulty are you having with this?

There is no twisting of scripture occuring.

As far as total depravity though...


[quote]

• Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
• Genesis 8:21: "And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.
• Job 15:14: What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?

15 Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!

• Job 25:4-6: How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure? 5 Behold, even the moon is not bright, and the stars are not pure in his eyes; 6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
• Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
• Psalms 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."
• Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."
• Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."
• Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
• Jeremiah 13:23: : "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
• Isaiah 64:6 "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away"
• Isaiah 64:7 "There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you, for you have hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities."
• Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."
• Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
• John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."
• John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"
• John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
• John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"
• Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
• Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
• 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
• Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (our depravity being emphasised in the concept of being "dead"; only something external -i.e. God- can give a dead man life)
• Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Again, the passage from 1 John 3 is telling us to run from sin. You are reading into the text. You are missing the context of it.


I ask you to look at this.

Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

This passage says, you and I are both sinners. We are made righteous through our faith in Christ in addition to our efforts to run from sin. Also, read this.

Isaiah 64


1 [a]Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down,
that the mountains would tremble before you!
2 As when fire sets twigs ablaze
and causes water to boil,
come down to make your name known to your enemies
and cause the nations to quake before you!
3 For when you did awesome things that we did not expect,
you came down, and the mountains trembled before you.
4 Since ancient times no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who acts on behalf of those who wait for him.
5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
7 No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and have given us over to[b] our sins. 8 Yet you, LORD, are our Father.
We are the clay, you are the potter;
we are all the work of your hand.
9 Do not be angry beyond measure, LORD;
do not remember our sins forever.
Oh, look on us, we pray,
for we are all your people.
10 Your sacred cities have become a wasteland;
even Zion is a wasteland, Jerusalem a desolation.
11 Our holy and glorious temple, where our ancestors praised you,
has been burned with fire,
and all that we treasured lies in ruins.
12 After all this, LORD, will you hold yourself back?
Will you keep silent and punish us beyond measure?

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

Yes, we are to refrain from sin. That does not mean we conquer it. Also, you are not pure and are already tainted with sin.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

See, I thought of the blood of Jesus Christ as being some pretty powerful stuff. I thought that it had the power to cleanse us from all sin. According to you, I've been misunderstanding all along, and accepting Jesus into your heart is more like giving your soul the spritual equivalent of a quick rub with a manky dishcloth and some generic store-brand washing-up liquid. Is that correct?

As far as total depravity though...

• Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
• Genesis 8:21: "And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.
• Job 15:14: What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?

15 Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!

• Job 25:4-6: How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure? 5 Behold, even the moon is not bright, and the stars are not pure in his eyes; 6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
• Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
• Psalms 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."
• Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."
• Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."
• Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
• Jeremiah 13:23: : "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
• Isaiah 64:6 "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away"
• Isaiah 64:7 "There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you, for you have hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities."
• Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."

Those are all from the Old Testament. You know, that book that you think is a complete irrelevance, and we don't have to pay attention to anymore? Or is it that the parts of the Old Testament that happen to suit what you're saying still contain vital spiritual truths, and it's just the bits you don't like that were nailed to the cross?

• Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

True. No-one's arguing that everyone is inherently lovely, if we were there'd be no need for Jesus' sacrifice. That doesn't mean that Jesus can't change what's in our hearts, does it?

• John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."

Again, it's not talking about Saved Christians. About as relevant as using one of the bits of the OT talking about how naughty the Israelites were to claim that Moses is in Hell.

• John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"
• John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
• John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"

Again, the Father has drawn us to Jesus, and we don't commit sin. Your point being?

• Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
• Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
• 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
• Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (our depravity being emphasised in the concept of being "dead"; only something external -i.e. God- can give a dead man life)
• Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."

Again, we're not claiming that our salvation is intrinsic to ourselves. We know full well that we're saved through God's Grace. That doesn't mean that we're not saved, though. There's a difference between "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another, but now we're saved and things are different because we don't do these things anymore", and ""For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another, then we got saved, but it didn't change anything and we still do all these things because God is completely useless", which is what you seem to be arguing.

This passage says, you and I are both sinners. We are made righteous through our faith in Christ in addition to our efforts to run from sin. Also, read this.

You and I were both sinners. I was made righteous through my faith in Christ in addition to my efforts to run from sin. Considering that you seem to be intent on continuing to blaspheme Him and deny the Salvation He offers, I can't really speak for you.

EDITED TO ADD: I don't know what time it is where you are, but it's late where I am, so I really must get to bed now. I shall pray for you in the hopes that Jesus may take pity on you and wash you free of sin, like He did to me and Levi.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Stoning Should be the Method of Capital Punishment

This passage says, you and I are both sinners. We are made righteous through our faith in Christ in addition to our efforts to run from sin.

Isaiah 64

5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away. [/quote]

Here Isaiah is asking what he thought was a pleading question. The real message is in the question posed before your bolding and in red font by me.

God was listening; the answer, provided by God, was Christ’s sojourn on earth and His promise of Salvation and this is demonstrated in the verse that Brother Levi gave. “Once Saved, Always Saved.”

Seriously, if you are defending the Bible, God will lose. I urge you to be more thoughtful and circumspect in your rash assertions. There are people out there who are extremely gullible. These are our sheep - bring them to safety, and the easiest way is to accept every Word of The Bible.

Joh:1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.