[Rachael Van Helsing]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

Ahoy Extremists,
*snip* Long winded emo rant *snip*

They hate you because their book and their religion tells them to.
That's it, nothing personal.

You, however, haven't done the gothic culture any favors by that post.

[OpiatedEnnui]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

They hate you because their book and their religion tells them to.
That's it, nothing personal.

You, however, haven't done the gothic culture any favors by that post.

I'm just poking around here for some laughs.

[WilliamJenningsBryan]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

I hope you realize that my just saying "wrong" over and over again is just like saying "god said so" and I hope you learn something from this. Now kindly see yourself out and send in WilliamJenningsBryan, we have things to discuss.

I simply find this subject tedious, but since you seem to be willing to discuss it in more depth I am willing to see where it goes should you exhibit the proper motivation.

Let's do a little recap here:

Bored and Drugged: You people just don't understand Goth - and you are a bunch of witless wonders.

WJB: Please, pray tell, just what is it that we don't understand? Give us compelling reasons why anyone should adopt Goth and why might it be good for all humanity.

Bored and Drugged: It's real simple - Goths are just a bunch of people that like to listen to the same kind of music.

WJB: Stunningly insightful. The human race will be advanced by an order of magnitude.

Now I know a bunch of people that like classical music, indeed they worship Mozart like a deity. They attend orchestra and chamber music concerts much like church services and are capable of discussing his music in excruciating detail. Yet I have yet to see one of them don red coats and powdered wigs in public. Even more marginal are groups of people that adore the works of Gilbert & Sullivan. Indeed, they get together and stage his works much like the Wagner Ring Cycle. I have never seen a one of them dress up like pirates or Emperors of Japan (with the exception of performance stage costumes). But I digress, on with the recap.

Bored and Drugged: You are all unenlightened trash, kindly permit me to enlighten you. Goth sub-culture is about romanticism in art, literature and music. It admires individualism, acceptance and tolerance. Goth music is a derivative of Punk - but more focuses on defying social norms and has "dark" themes, but just for imagery purposes. Yea, we from time to time attract certain individuals that do some strange things, but there is something chemically wrong with their brains. The strange things that some of these people do can sometimes be compared to meditation and prayer. God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost, as well as 2000 years of Judeo-Christian civilization and culture have nothing to do with any of this. Oh, and by the way, read a concise satirical tome on all of this by the Goth author and musician Voltaire.

By way of an historical perspective, this is not the first time that Gothic subjects have fascinated great masses of the unwashed public. Jane Austen was driven to write a parody in 1818. Even Gilbert & Sullivan wrote a satire on the subject in their comic opera Ruddygore in 1887. Given that I have not witnessed a renaissance in Gothic art and literature from this sub-culture, I would assume that the only significant artistic endeavor is the music.

So what is the bottom line? Goth sub-culture is rebelling against social norms? What social norms? Romanticism had many roots in the nineteenth century. Which ones gave rise to the present sub-culture? What are the key elements of present Goth music and the purposes of the "dark" themes and imagery? What essential messages do they communicate? Where is the individualism (fashion attire)?

And finally, if there is so much tolerance and acceptance in this sub-culture why is it that this thread has attracted so many attacking some minority True Christians™ humbly trying to spread the Good Word of Jesus?

[roserougesang]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

By way of an historical perspective, this is not the first time that Gothic subjects have fascinated great masses of the unwashed public. Jane Austen was driven to write a parody in 1818. Even Gilbert & Sullivan wrote a satire on the subject in their comic opera Ruddygore in 1887. Given that I have not witnessed a renaissance in Gothic art and literature from this sub-culture, I would assume that the only significant artistic endeavor is the music.

So what is the bottom line? Goth sub-culture is rebelling against social norms? What social norms? Romanticism had many roots in the nineteenth century. Which ones gave rise to the present sub-culture? What are the key elements of present Goth music and the purposes of the "dark" themes and imagery? What essential messages do they communicate? Where is the individualism (fashion attire)?

I agree with you on several points. Many novels that are considered 'gothic' fiction were written in the 18th and 19th centuries, such as Dracula, Frankenstein, The Castle of Otranto, The Monk, The Picture of Dorian Grey and The Mysteries of Udolpho among others. Though it seems that a large difference between the 'gothic' novels of the past and the more modern ones is the older ones seem to be a little more subtle about the darkness in them, in most cases when you start reading one for the first 100 pages or so it seems to be like any other novel from the period in which it was written.

Now onto the music. When the gothic subculture was emerging from punk in the late 70s/ early 80s in some ways the music was just like punk music except more melancholy and with darker lyrics and despairing vocals. 90s and more modern gothic music (which has many subcategories) sounds much darker to an average listener than the music of the 80s because along with songs about emotions, artists have also accommodated the influence of gothic literature and films into their music, making the music sound more........well.......gothic

One could say that goths were in fact more 'individual' in the 80s than they are today. In the 80s, with the subculture being new and fresh there were barely any places or shops a person could purchase 'dark' clothing, so most goths either made their own clothes, or they purchased clothing at thrift stores and altered them to suit their aesthetic tastes. These days it's much easier to put together a 'gothic' wardrobe for there are hundreds of shops nowadays.

Everyone knows that some parts of life are less than pleasant; sickness, death and loss among other things. Many goths try to make them almost aesthetic in their creative endevours as a way of coming to terms with them and making it easier to cope with what is sometimes unevitable.

People are attracted to the gothic subculture for many reasons. Some people have felt that they've always been a bit different from their peers and had darker tastes in things, some like the aesthetics.......everyone has a different reason.

Originally, goths were subtly 'rebelling' against aesthetic and artistic norms. It's a bit of a joke nowadays because of the huge popularity of the subculture and it now being fairly well-known in the mainstream.

Hope that clears up things

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

Everyone knows that some parts of life are less than pleasant; sickness, death and loss among other things. Many goths try to make them almost aesthetic in their creative endevours as a way of coming to terms with them and making it easier to cope with what is sometimes unevitable.

The only reason why these horrible things are inevitable to these people is because they hate God. If they would only turn to Jesus they would have happy lives like us TRUE Christians.

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

People are attracted to the gothic subculture for many reasons. Some people have felt that they've always been a bit different from their peers and had darker tastes in things, some like the aesthetics.......everyone has a different reason.

Originally, goths were subtly 'rebelling' against aesthetic and artistic norms. It's a bit of a joke nowadays because of the huge popularity of the subculture and it now being fairly well-known in the mainstream.

Hope that clears up things

It's good to hear a goth who doesn't rail about how individual and unique they are, and recognizes that the "rebellious" period of Goth has long (20 years) been subsumed by the commercialized version.

Similarly, the "rebellious" periods of Christianity have been overwhelmed by the commercialized version.

We are focused on the real deal, not the MTV version of Christianity.

[naughty angel 27]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

I have atleast 20 of those lovely characteristics you have posted but I am not a goth at all.

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

I have atleast 20 of those lovely characteristics you have posted but I am not a goth at all.

Let us know when you read the 127 pages of posts between the list of warning signs and now, when it is clearly stated at least 30 or 40 times that it's not a checklist of achievement but rather a list of possible warning signs . . . then figure out where the conversation is now, and rejoin.

Thanks!

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

I have atleast 20 of those lovely characteristics you have posted but I am not a goth at all.

Friend,

Quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck; means it is a duck.

But whether one has reviled and horrible label "Goth" is besides the point. It is the behavior that a Goth personifies that is the problem. It is nothing but a unrelenting attack upon our loving savior. All a Goth, or Goth like person is about is pushing Christ over and kicking HIM while HE is down. Perhaps Naught Angel you should stop being so mean spirited and try to become a more loving person by doing as Jesus would do.

[OpiatedEnnui]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

I simply find this subject tedious, but since you seem to be willing to discuss it in more depth I am willing to see where it goes should you exhibit the proper motivation.

Then thank you for your time.

So what is the bottom line? Goth sub-culture is rebelling against social norms? What social norms? Romanticism had many roots in the nineteenth century. Which ones gave rise to the present sub-culture? What are the key elements of present Goth music and the purposes of the "dark" themes and imagery? What essential messages do they communicate? Where is the individualism (fashion attire)?

And finally, if there is so much tolerance and acceptance in this sub-culture why is it that this thread has attracted so many attacking some minority True Christians™ humbly trying to spread the Good Word of Jesus?

I'm sure you will agree that popular society engages in certain rituals, consciously or not, that do not reflect your idea of an ideal society, to Goths it varies from person to person but often social acceptance can be the largest underlying issue. You may say if they dressed and acted 'normally' there would be no problem, that is where the 'rebellion' part comes in. It has to do with being accepted as is, rather than having to live life as a masquerade. In essence, if you're interested in witchcraft, practice it, if you want to cut your self, do it, if you're interested in religion, join one, and so on.

Romanticism had many roots in the nineteenth century. Which ones gave rise to the present sub-culture?

The goth subculture at the present is confused at best. This is due to the mainstreams adoption of some aspects of it. But at first the influence for Goth music came directly from the literature of the romantic era. The literature often blended fascination, horror and romance to create something that approached human emotion from a different angle than what was common, and this is what Goth music tends to mirror.

What are the key elements of present Goth music and the purposes of the "dark" themes and imagery? What essential messages do they communicate? Where is the individualism (fashion attire)?

The purpose of 'dark' themes and imagery are not set in stone, but they can be interpreted as a way to move music back into a poetic or artistic direction. So in essence the 'dark' themes will mean what you want them to, so as an example a demon or hell may represent something that you are not fond of but are drawn to anyway.

And finally, if there is so much tolerance and acceptance in this sub-culture why is it that this thread has attracted so many attacking some minority True Christians™ humbly trying to spread the Good Word of Jesus?

Well, emotion gets the best of anyone in certain situations. This thread gives the idea that Goths are just a pack of rabid murderous animals, in short. The media given Goths a similar reputation, and since popular opinion on such matters is often greatly influenced by religious groups this is obviously a good place to start defending the Goth subculture. As for attacking "some minority True Christians™ humbly trying to spread the Good Word of Jesus?", well, as I have illustrated earlier, just being told that you are wrong is a frustrating and under minding situation. Adding that, statements as the one to follow fly around here like flies on a pond, which to a non-religious person can be viewed as threat of murder.

We love you enough to whack you over the head with a baseball bat until you come to Jesus, if that's what it takes!

Now, I for one am well aware that to you I am a sinner, I know that to you I am going to hell. I accept that, what I do not accept is that you are labeling all Goths as such an immense danger to society. Why do you think are Goths dangerous people? Why do you think all Goths are alcoholics and drug addicts? Why do you see all Goths as homosexuals? How about these things, in your opinion, add up to being 'Goth'?

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

Then thank you for your time.
Now, I for one am well aware that to you I am a sinner, I know that to you I am going to hell. I accept that, what I do not accept is that you are labeling all Goths as such an immense danger to society. Why do you think are Goths dangerous people? Why do you think all Goths are alcoholics and drug addicts? Why do you see all Goths as homosexuals? How about these things, in your opinion, add up to being 'Goth'?

Friend,

Don’t you think attempting to encourage people to damn themselves is a danger to the general public? Even if you foolishly don’t subscribe to Christianity the intended maliciousness of this kind of activity should be repulsive.

It is short step from attempting to destroy someone’s soul to destroying their bodies.

[SinisterPizza]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

Look, I'm even giving him some helpful guidance:

Thank you SO much for that wonderful picture..

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

Then thank you for your time.

And thank you for coming to our forums to learn about JESUS.

I'm sure you will agree that popular society engages in certain rituals, consciously or not, that do not reflect your idea of an ideal society, to Goths it varies from person to person but often social acceptance can be the largest underlying issue. You may say if they dressed and acted 'normally' there would be no problem, that is where the 'rebellion' part comes in. It has to do with being accepted as is, rather than having to live life as a masquerade. In essence, if you're interested in witchcraft, practice it, if you want to cut your self, do it, if you're interested in religion, join one, and so on.

Yes, and that is one of the many reasons why God hates them. If you're interested in witchcraft, read the Bible and see what God wants you to think about witchcraft, if you want to cut your self, read the Bible and see what God thinks about mewling emo crybabies, if you're interested in religion, read the Bible, and so on.

The goth subculture at the present is confused at best. This is due to the mainstreams adoption of some aspects of it. But at first the influence for Goth music came directly from the literature of the romantic era. The literature often blended fascination, horror and romance to create something that approached human emotion from a different angle than what was common, and this is what Goth music tends to mirror.

No it didn't. It came from a bunch of talentless punks with synthesisers looking for a new way to make money out of gullible chumps.

The purpose of 'dark' themes and imagery are not set in stone, but they can be interpreted as a way to move music back into a poetic or artistic direction. So in essence the 'dark' themes will mean what you want them to, so as an example a demon or hell may represent something that you are not fond of but are drawn to anyway.

Again, such arrogance. The dark themes in the Bible mean exactly what the LORD intended them to, and that's the way He likes it!

Well, emotion gets the best of anyone in certain situations. This thread gives the idea that Goths are just a pack of rabid murderous animals, in short. The media given Goths a similar reputation, and since popular opinion on such matters is often greatly influenced by religious groups this is obviously a good place to start defending the Goth subculture. As for attacking "some minority True Christians™ humbly trying to spread the Good Word of Jesus?", well, as I have illustrated earlier, just being told that you are wrong is a frustrating and under minding situation. Adding that, statements as the one to follow fly around here like flies on a pond, which to a non-religious person can be viewed as threat of murder.

And? To a non-religious person, sodomy can be viewed as a reasonable way to spend an afternoon. To a non-religious person, a foetus can be viewed as an inanimate collection of cells, and to a Chinaman a dog can be viewed as a snack. What of it?

Now, I for one am well aware that to you I am a sinner, I know that to you I am going to hell. I accept that, what I do not accept is that you are labeling all Goths as such an immense danger to society. Why do you think are Goths dangerous people? Why do you think all Goths are alcoholics and drug addicts? Why do you see all Goths as homosexuals? How about these things, in your opinion, add up to being 'Goth'?

Because they are without God. Perhaps if goths stopped shooting up schools, shooting up smack, getting drunk and buggering everything in sight, people might be a little more tolerant.

[OpiatedEnnui]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

Because they are without God. Perhaps if goths stopped shooting up schools, shooting up smack, getting drunk and buggering everything in sight, people might be a little more tolerant.

Don't you think that's a bit silly of an argument you have there? I mean every other thread I see here puts down the media and the public perception of what a Christian should be, yet you buy into what the media thinks a Goth is.

Friend,

Don’t you think attempting to encourage people to damn themselves is a danger to the general public? Even if you foolishly don’t subscribe to Christianity the intended maliciousness of this kind of activity should be repulsive.

It is short step from attempting to destroy someone’s soul to destroying their bodies.

It's not like there is a Goth recruitment office.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Is Your Child A Goth?

It's not like there is a Goth recruitment office.

So you accept my arguement about trying to get someone to damn themselves is wrong?