Pray for the soul of Skeptical Calvinist

[Skeptical_Calvinist]

Split from: HELP ME BAN THE SPECIAL OLYMPICS ! -Mod



Have any of you actually read the passage from Leviticus that you’ve cited? Here’s the King James version:

18: For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
19: Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
20: Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
21: No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.

That is, no one with any sort of disability is allowed to offer ceremonial sacrifices to the LORD. I’m not sure why this means that God hates retarded people. Certainly, they aren’t qualified to be priests and perform sacrifices, but that doesn’t mean that they’re subhuman or worthy of extermination. Here’s a few other types of people who aren’t allowed to offer ceremonial sacrifices:

1.Anyone who has not inherited the priesthood via the line of Aaron. That means everyone in this forum, since there are no pure descendents of the Israeli priesthood. At a minimum, anyone who isn’t biologically Jewish falls into this category.
2.People who are menstruating.
3.Anyone not wearing the proper ceremonial robes.

So, either this passage doesn’t justify killing retarded people, or it also justifies killing all women (provided you do it at the right time of the month), anyone who isn’t Jewish, and everyone who ever wears something other than the ceremonial robes of Jewish priests. Presumably, that would have to include the priests themselves, if they ever take the robes off. Given that these robes have to be spotlessly clean, that means everyone.

But maybe God was making a larger claim: that these people are inherently impure. There’s no textual support for this. God clearly says that these people are ceremonially unclean, but that’s not necessarily a moral judgment. The same chapter of Leviticus says that people can become unclean by touching a dead body, being bald, shaving his beard or cutting himself.

Wait, that’s absurd. Bald people aren’t evil. There’s a simple way out of this: read the two verses that come before the part you cited.

16: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
17: Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.

The problem should be obvious: what you’ve quoted is a specific directive to the descendents of Aaron. Priests can’t touch dead bodies, shave or be bald. They can’t be retarded either. Everyone else is free to become a mortician, shave or be stupid and deformed, provided they follow God’s laws.

All of the scripture here is in the proper translation. It follows the “least-tweaking” principle of the church much more strictly than the alternative reading. It’s also supported by the obvious intent of the entire chapter and Jesus’s habit of healing lepers, who are also ceremonially unclean.

There are more arguments in favor of this position, but this seems sufficient. I challenge anyone on this forum to provide Bible verses to justify this vehement hatred of retarded people. I’ll follow your rules of evidence, I won’t make inflammatory statements and I won’t fall back on “tolerance.”

[Brother_Percy]

Re: HELP ME BAN THE SPECIAL OLYMPICS !

I challenge anyone on this forum to provide Bible verses to justify this vehement hatred of retarded people.

Friend,

How dare you come onto a Christian Forum, ‘claiming’ to be Christian, and refer to retards as ‘people’. I have never been so disgusted in all my life. These freaks are the seed of Satan himself!

Let’s look at what the Bible has to say about filthy retards –

"God created man in his own image" Genesis 1:27

Many people have asked us many times in the past, 'if God made all men perfect and in his own image, then where do retards come from?' While this answer is fairly simple to the Bible-literate, it sickens me that some pathetic people (mostly worthless atheists) have the nerve to suggest that God actually created these hideous limbless monsters. They say, 'How did God get it so wrong?', like these wretched creatures have anything to do with him. It's utterly offensive to even suggest that God, in his infinite wisdom, would create something as loathsome and repulsive as a spastic child. So let me tell you exactly where these disgusting beasts come from. They are the seed of Hell itself!

From the first book of the Bible, which deals with the creation of the Earth, the birth of man, and the banishment of Lucifer and his Demons to Earth.

"And it came to pass when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God (fallen angels – DEMONS!) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose...There were giants on the earth in those days; and also after that when the sons of God came into the daughters of men, and they bare children to them." Genesis 6: 1-4

And there it is - During the early days of the Earth we find out EXACTLY where retards come from. They are the product of Demons raping women! The spawn of Satan. Half-demon children with spastic retardation and other birth defects and deformities. And the Bible goes on to teach that these filthy Demon half-breeds created hate and disorder. Turning man against man, until the World was full of evil and wickedness. And it made God weep.

'And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for I am sorry that I have made them.' Genesis 6:6-8

See, when fallen angels shape-shift into a form of human being they may have intercourse with humans, but not without some aberrant genetic changes. The union of these beasts with humans produced children that were different in many ways. The first apparent difference was that they developed abnormalities (retardations). Some had twisted bodies, while others had missing limbs, while others were male giants. Og the King of Bashan had a bed that was 13 to 15 feet long; and Goliath was 6 cubits tall (9 feet). The second aberration was that they had six fingers and six toes. If a being is reported to be six cubits tall, have six toes, and six fingers, is that the mark of the beast (666)? Note: Marilyn Monroe had six toes. It is not untold for retarded children to be born with six toes or six fingers. Doctors simply remove the extra fingers and toes. Retards are modern evidence of the intervention of the Fallen Angels (Devils) in their attempt to destroy the Seed of Adam through Eve.

[Skeptical_Calvinist]

Re: HELP ME BAN THE SPECIAL OLYMPICS !

First, you haven't responded to my basic argument about your incompetent reading of Leviticus. According to the least tweaking principle embraced by the Landover Baptist Church, guessing at God's intent isn't allowed. Otherwise you'd have to deal with all that "love your neighbor" stuff. Therefore, you can't extrapolate from God's specific regulations of the priesthood to a general dislike of retarded people. You have no textual case for your hatred of the disabled.

Instead of answering my argument, you created a strawperson and then proceded to vigoriously attack it. Even if you prove this line of argumentation, you've merely created an incredibly implausible explanation of how retarded people came into being. You've still failed to prove that God hates the retarded.

However, you're wrong. God made everyone in his image:

Exodus 4:11
And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

The interbreeding with demons that you mentioned occurred before the flood. The part that you quoted makes that fairly clear. These sorts of hybrids, usually called the Nephilim, are all dead now. The passage strongly implies that all of that is over.

But, for the sake of argument, lets assume it isn't. Where are the giants? Normal people were like grasshoppers compared to the Nephilim. Also note that none of these people are retarded, lame or in anyway disabled. If anything, the Nephilim were superhuman.

Also, why does being distantly related to a demon make you less of a person? We're all direct descendents of Adam, who turned down the Garden of Eden so he could stick with his girlfriend. Surely that's at least as bad as an Angel rebelling against God.

You seem really excited about people with extra digits. If a person has an IQ below 70 but only ten fingers and ten toes, are they still a person? Also, please provide any scripture that links the extra digits with sinfulness. I know that there were evil people with extra digits, but there have also been a lot of evil people that wore pants. Correlation, causality, all that.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: HELP ME BAN THE SPECIAL OLYMPICS !

First, you haven't responded to my basic argument about your incompetent reading of Leviticus. According to the least tweaking principle embraced by the Landover Baptist Church, guessing at God's intent isn't allowed. Otherwise you'd have to deal with all that "love your neighbor" stuff. Therefore, you can't extrapolate from God's specific regulations of the priesthood to a general dislike of retarded people. You have no textual case for your hatred of the disabled.

Instead of answering my argument, you created a strawperson and then proceded to vigoriously attack it. Even if you prove this line of argumentation, you've merely created an incredibly implausible explanation of how retarded people came into being. You've still failed to prove that God hates the retarded.

However, you're wrong. God made everyone in his image:

Exodus 4:11
And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

The interbreeding with demons that you mentioned occurred before the flood. The part that you quoted makes that fairly clear. These sorts of hybrids, usually called the Nephilim, are all dead now. The passage strongly implies that all of that is over.

But, for the sake of argument, lets assume it isn't. Where are the giants? Normal people were like grasshoppers compared to the Nephilim. Also note that none of these people are retarded, lame or in anyway disabled. If anything, the Nephilim were superhuman.

Also, why does being distantly related to a demon make you less of a person? We're all direct descendents of Adam, who turned down the Garden of Eden so he could stick with his girlfriend. Surely that's at least as bad as an Angel rebelling against God.

You seem really excited about people with extra digits. If a person has an IQ below 70 but only ten fingers and ten toes, are they still a person? Also, please provide any scripture that links the extra digits with sinfulness. I know that there were evil people with extra digits, but there have also been a lot of evil people that wore pants. Correlation, causality, all that.

I don't think you've read this thread all the way through from the start. You also might want to take a look at THIS thread for new posters, which explains in some detail about our church doctrine.

No one disputes that we are made in God's image. But God doesn't sin, so we obviously have something more (or less) to our makeup than just "godliness." There are sodomites, witches, atheists and other assorted God mockers out there. The Bible is clear enough for me. He wants them dead and in hell.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: HELP ME BAN THE SPECIAL OLYMPICS !

[...]you've merely created an incredibly implausible explanation of how retarded people came into being. You've still failed to prove that God hates the retarded.

However, you're wrong. God made everyone in his image:

Exodus 4:11
And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

If what you say is true, and what (God forfend) Brother Percy says is incorrect, then why would God not want general gimps as priests? Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

I think you are trying to catch God out. You're trying to find faults in His Plan! Son, this is a mistake - His Wrath is awesome and His Justice swift.

[John Bois Ward]

Re: HELP ME BAN THE SPECIAL OLYMPICS !

Have any of you actually read the passage from Leviticus that you’ve cited? Here’s the King James version:

18: For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
19: Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
20: Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
21: No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.

That is, no one with any sort of disability is allowed to offer ceremonial sacrifices to the LORD. I’m not sure why this means that God hates retarded people. Certainly, they aren’t qualified to be priests and perform sacrifices, but that doesn’t mean that they’re subhuman or worthy of extermination. Here’s a few other types of people who aren’t allowed to offer ceremonial sacrifices:

1.Anyone who has not inherited the priesthood via the line of Aaron. That means everyone in this forum, since there are no pure descendents of the Israeli priesthood. At a minimum, anyone who isn’t biologically Jewish falls into this category.
2.People who are menstruating.
3.Anyone not wearing the proper ceremonial robes.

So, either this passage doesn’t justify killing retarded people, or it also justifies killing all women (provided you do it at the right time of the month), anyone who isn’t Jewish, and everyone who ever wears something other than the ceremonial robes of Jewish priests. Presumably, that would have to include the priests themselves, if they ever take the robes off. Given that these robes have to be spotlessly clean, that means everyone.

But maybe God was making a larger claim: that these people are inherently impure. There’s no textual support for this. God clearly says that these people are ceremonially unclean, but that’s not necessarily a moral judgment. The same chapter of Leviticus says that people can become unclean by touching a dead body, being bald, shaving his beard or cutting himself.

Wait, that’s absurd. Bald people aren’t evil. There’s a simple way out of this: read the two verses that come before the part you cited.

16: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
17: Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.

The problem should be obvious: what you’ve quoted is a specific directive to the descendents of Aaron. Priests can’t touch dead bodies, shave or be bald. They can’t be retarded either. Everyone else is free to become a mortician, shave or be stupid and deformed, provided they follow God’s laws.

All of the scripture here is in the proper translation. It follows the “least-tweaking” principle of the church much more strictly than the alternative reading. It’s also supported by the obvious intent of the entire chapter and Jesus’s habit of healing lepers, who are also ceremonially unclean.

There are more arguments in favor of this position, but this seems sufficient. I challenge anyone on this forum to provide Bible verses to justify this vehement hatred of retarded people. I’ll follow your rules of evidence, I won’t make inflammatory statements and I won’t fall back on “tolerance.”

There is a distinction between the set of imperatives that priests must follow in order to remain clean (not touching undead, not making baldness, etc) and the list of physical deformities that makes one unclean. In Leviticus 21:1–15, you find several commands that if broken by a priest will lead to the priest becoming profane. It’s a choice of action or non-action by the part of the priest. While in Leviticus 21:16-23, you find a set of deformities that automatically makes one profane. There is no choice in the matter; one is simply born unclean. You are merely mincing words by saying that the disabled are not inherently impure but are just ceremonially unclean. Is not God stating that the disabled are simply profane (unholy) because of their inherent defects?

Because of these defects, God is discriminating against the disabled. They are not receiving the same privileges and rights as the able-bodied. This answers the question - Does God hate retarded people? Do you think discrimination is hateful? Would you make the argument that the discriminatory laws of the 1950’s Deep South represented the White Man’s love or hate of black people? Based on your own words, one could assume that you think discrimination is acceptable. Are you a racist?

[Brother_Percy]

Re: HELP ME BAN THE SPECIAL OLYMPICS !

However, you're wrong. God made everyone in his image:

Exodus 4:11
And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it the 'dumb' people who cannot speak, the 'deaf' people who cannot hear, and the 'blind' people who cannot see. ie. They are healthy human beings God sought to punish in some way or another? Perhaps they were sinful in the womb, and God struck them blind or dumb as punishment for their wickedness - before they were even born. Perhaps God was punishing their parents for being perverts or Jews or for worshipping false Gods? Who knows? Who are we to question the Will of God?

But the deaf, dumb and blind are NOT people born with repulsive spastic retardations such as downs syndrome. A retardation which scientists have proven is caused by having an EXTRA chromisome. ie. Something in their DNA which is not human.

Now, don't you think that if pure-blood retards were truly human, but incomplete in some way, they would have a missing chromisome, not an extra one!??

Yes, I think we all know where this extra retard gene comes from - Demon blood! Retards are the Devil's Children, you would be foolish to deny this.

The interbreeding with demons that you mentioned occurred before the flood. The part that you quoted makes that fairly clear. These sorts of hybrids, usually called the Nephilim, are all dead now...

Yes, God flooded the World to wipe them out. But as far as I remember, vessels of evil cannot drown. So many of their filthy retard offspring survived.

What sort of Christian are you? Even the Catholics know retards are part-demon - that's why they convicted and burned so many of them during the Witchtrials of the 1400's. Not just because of what the Bible teaches, but because their Apocrypha goes into specifics on this. Just look at ways to identify creatures in allegance with Lucifer.

For example, one way to check the identity of a witch is by 'ducking' her. If she drowns, she was a human. If she floats, she is a witch. It is a well known fact that witches, nephilim, warlocks, demons and various other cohorts of Satan cannot die by drowning.

But, for the sake of argument, lets assume it isn't. Where are the giants? Normal people were like grasshoppers compared to the Nephilim. Also note that none of these people are retarded, lame or in anyway disabled. If anything, the Nephilim were superhuman.

WRONG! SOME Nephilim were born giant, others had extra limbs or fingers, while others suffered from other genetic abnormalities. No doubt others had extra chromisomes, like the wretched downs syndromes. They key here is 'extra'. ie. They are born with something normal God-made humans are born without.

So I will ask you again - If all men were made equal, why do some retards have extra chromisomes that everyone else doesn't? All humans have the same number, but retards have more, because they are part-demon. Because they have an extra demon chromisome or gene or whatever you want to call it, that makes them more than human.

Have you ever seen the statistics on violent assaults. Did you know that retards are more violent than the rest of the normal human population? The statistics of violent attacks in retard care homes is frightening. Some are even said to display what has been described as super-human strength during these attacks. It is also estimated that 75% of all violent crime is committed by people with some sort of retardation. So tell me again how they are just like the rest of us. That they are normal. That they all aren't violent spastic animals, because I don't believe you.

These violent retards that have somehow been given free reign to attend 'normal' schools and wander the streets, looking for teachers to assault, people to murder or women to rape. Gone are the days when these foul and violent animals remain locked in their parents basements / attics.

This violent and disruptive behavior by retard students has ranged from defecating in the classroom to the regular battering of teachers and even the murder of other students.

According to Department of Education figures, 4.8 million school-age children are defined as disabled, the vast majority (3.5 million) of whom fall into such broad categories as the learning disabled and those with speech and language impairments -- groupings that include the hyperactive, which are one of the most violent types of retard. About 550,000 of which are mentally retarded.

But also mainstreamed are the disabled children with retardations such as Down syndrome and the autistic, many of whom require a great deal of personal attention, who sometimes are not toilet trained (requiring schools to provide special diapering rooms) and who can become very very violent indeed. The Down syndrome is the most violent breed of retard - co-incidence? I think not.

If they would just simply sterilize these beast when they are born, and administer hysterectomies to the befouled women who birth these repulsive abominations, these retard attacks on 'normal' children would not be happening.