[MustBeOnDrugs]

Re: the furry fandom is dead or dieing

Imam seems to check a lot of boxes in the prophet definition, don't ya think? I've highlighted the most relevant bits.

Well, given that Mahomet was illiterate, and the Koran was not written down until about a century after he died, how do you know that Koran has not been distorted by the idiots who came after Mahomet - the idiots who wrote the Koran down? My understanding is - and please do correct me if I'm wrong - that there are at least two versions of the Koran, leading to the Sunni/Shia split, with the latter version emphasizing the importance of Mahomet's descendants. That would mean Koran has already been distorted at the moment it was written down!

Also, if God does not make mistakes, that must mean that distorting His message into the myriad of false religions, that was part of His plan, right? Part of His plan is to have His message corrupted, so that He can fill up the Hell which He created with godless heathens, right?

Ah, but you have the 100% certainty that you and you alone are the one who does understand the scripture written 1300 years ago perfectly and without distortions, right?

Or do you acknowledge that you are one of the idiots misunderstanding and distorting the original message?

You forgot to add idiot Arabs who made up the false Sunni religion.

Beautifully said, Brother Pim.

There is no Sunni religion. There is no Shia or Sunni on the Quran. There is Believers and unbelievers. If you believe in Islam you are a believer. If you dont believe in it, then you are an unbeliever.

I dont regard sects as part of Islam. I am a Salafi, a fundamentalist. If you believe in a form of Islam different than this i dont consider you a Muslim in the same way as Landover Baptist regards other christian denomination as heretic and non christian.

By the one are you French? Or Canadian? Why do you insist in writting Mahomet? Mahomet is just Muhammad in French.

The Quran was written during Muhammad times. What was compiled 100years after his death was the books of Hadith. And funny you point this out, as the bible was written much much later after Jesus

[Basilissa]

Re: the furry fandom is dead or dieing

There is no Sunni religion. There is no Shia or Sunni on the Quran. There is Believers and unbelievers. If you believe in Islam you are a believer. If you dont believe in it, then you are an unbeliever.

I dont regard sects as part of Islam. I am a Salafi,

Oh, so you belong to a branch of Sunni. OK, thanks for this clarification.

By the one are you French? Or Canadian? Why do you insist in writting Mahomet? Mahomet is just Muhammad in French.

Neither French nor Canadian.

The Quran was written during Muhammad times.

Nope, it was all just oral tradition. Here, from the link provided by Dr. Elmer White in another thread:

Muslims at the edges of the empire began arguing over what was Koranic scripture and what was not. An army general returning from Azerbaijan expressed his fears about sectarian controversy to the Caliph 'Uthman (644-656)—the third Islamic ruler to succeed Muhammad—and is said to have entreated him to "overtake this people before they differ over the Koran the way the Jews and Christians differ over their Scripture." 'Uthman convened an editorial committee of sorts that carefully gathered the various pieces of scripture that had been memorized or written down by Muhammad's companions. The result was a standard written version of the Koran. 'Uthman ordered all incomplete and "imperfect" collections of the Koranic scripture destroyed, and the new version was quickly distributed to the major centers of the rapidly burgeoning empire.

So I admit I was wrong about 100 years after your favorite goat herder's death, it was something like 20 years after - still, this is the proof that even within such a short time there were disagreements regarding what stuff belongs in the Koran and what doesn't.

So basically, Uthman was the author of Koran, not that schizophrenic Mahomet, Muhammad, or whatever you want to call him (because of different vocalizations of vowels in your imperfect writing system, it would be safer to just call him Mhmt or Mhmd).

And funny you point this out, as the bible was written much much later after Jesus

That is true. Jesus never bothered to write a thing. Nonetheless, His Apostles did that job quite splendidly.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: the furry fandom is dead or dieing

Because it is a fact that after some generations the message is distorted. For example the message of Moses got corrupted into Judaism and Muhammad salalahu alaihi wa salam wasnt even alive at the time. Jesus message got corrupted into Catholicism and Muhammad wasnt around. This is proof of corrupted message without Muhammad being around.

As a fundamentalist Muslim who follows the Salaf (Islam as understood by Muhammad and his companions at the time) i dont believe his message was corrupted, as long a you remain a Salafi of course. The other islamic deviations (madhabs, shias, twelvers, etc) i regard as a corruption of the message.

I dont see any blind spots here. You as a non Muslim regard Islam as a religioin founded by Muhammad. we Muslims dont believe this. We believe Islam has always been around, and Muhammad salalahu alaihi wa salam was the FINAL prophet. Not the founder.

Islam in Arabic means Submission to the will of God.
Muslim in Arabic means One who submits to the will of God.

As we believe all Prophets submitted to the will of God, we call them Muslims. This does not mean they are followers of the last revelation to Muhammad, they just mean they submitted themselves to God. Then later generations distorted their message and created all those religious offshoots

You keep going on about prophets. Before we get around to whether or not they were called "muslims" you need to explain how you know they actually existed. It is of paramount importance. Let's say you're going to announce that Idris or Ilias said or did something, or perhaps that something happened to them, showing us the truth of Islam.

Hell is the destination for unbelievers.

Now according to you I am an unbeliever. I do not accept the claims of Islam. If Idris had an experience, if Ilias has an explanation, if any prophet demonstrates the truth of Islam, that has the direst consequences for me personally. The first thing you need to do is to show me that prophet was a real person and not just a made up goblin invented for some obscure reason thousands of years ago to whom adventures and/or superstitious mumbojumbo have been attributed across the centuries for equally obscure purposes. If they never existed, clearly they never said anything or had any supernatural experiences. Claims about such fictional characters can be dismissed as lies and no-one need lose any sleep.

But if they're real people and what they say confirms Islam, then I'm going to be tortured forever.

So you need to explain how you know these prophets were real people before you go on to anything else. "Anything else" includes what they said or wrote down, things that happened to them, things they saw or heard. You may do so in the following thread I've set up for you:

https://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=115977

[MustBeOnDrugs]

Re: the furry fandom is dead or dieing

Oh, so you belong to a branch of Sunni. OK, thanks for this clarification.

Neither French nor Canadian.

Nope, it was all just oral tradition. Here, from the link provided by Dr. Elmer White in another thread:

So I admit I was wrong about 100 years after your favorite goat herder's death, it was something like 20 years after - still, this is the proof that even within such a short time there were disagreements regarding what stuff belongs in the Koran and what doesn't.

So basically, Uthman was the author of Koran, not that schizophrenic Mahomet, Muhammad, or whatever you want to call him (because of different vocalizations of vowels in your imperfect writing system, it would be safer to just call him Mhmt or Mhmd).

That is true. Jesus never bothered to write a thing. Nonetheless, His Apostles did that job quite splendidly.

Was King James the author of the Bible? No? Then Caliph Utjman may God be pleases with him is not the author of the Quran.

The Quran was written by the companions of Muhammad salalahu alaihi wa salam, then compiled and perfected by Caliph Uthman.

The meaning was always the same what changed was the vowels, the punctuation, the recitation and which verse belong to which chapter. The meaning, the word of God in the Quran is the same as today as it was when it was revealed.

Regarding your question about what the Prophets say, that is not important to us Muslims. We believe they preached Monotheism and worship God alone, but their law and commands only applied to their times. The law of Muhammad applies for all time, all Muslims must follow the Sharia until Jesus alaihi salam comes back.

And take this moderation away it makes difficult to reply

[MustBeOnDrugs]

Re: the furry fandom is dead or dieing

You keep going on about prophets. Before we get around to whether or not they were called "muslims" you need to explain how you know they actually existed. It is of paramount importance. Let's say you're going to announce that Idris or Ilias said or did something, or perhaps that something happened to them, showing us the truth of Islam.

Hell is the destination for unbelievers.

Now according to you I am an unbeliever. I do not accept the claims of Islam. If Idris had an experience, if Ilias has an explanation, if any prophet demonstrates the truth of Islam, that has the direst consequences for me personally. The first thing you need to do is to show me that prophet was a real person and not just a made up goblin invented for some obscure reason thousands of years ago to whom adventures and/or superstitious mumbojumbo have been attributed across the centuries for equally obscure purposes. If they never existed, clearly they never said anything or had any supernatural experiences. Claims about such fictional characters can be dismissed as lies and no-one need lose any sleep.

But if they're real people and what they say confirms Islam, then I'm going to be tortured forever.

So you need to explain how you know these prophets were real people before you go on to anything else. "Anything else" includes what they said or wrote down, things that happened to them, things they saw or heard. You may do so in the following thread I've set up for you:

https://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=115977

It would take hours to tell you stories of all Prophets. If you are interested in the Islamic vision of the Prophets alaihi salatu wa salam, I recommend you a youtube channel called The Prophets Path. On it you will find a series about all the Prophets. I recommend you to start with the first one, Prophet Adam alaihi salam, you will find the story interesting God willing

[Pim Pendergast]

Re: the furry fandom is dead or dieing

Because it is a fact that after some generations the message is distorted. For example the message of Moses got corrupted into Judaism and Muhammad salad aloha wee salami wasnt even alive at the time. Jesus message got corrupted into Catholicism and Muhammad wasnt around. This is proof of corrupted message without Muhammad being around.

Yet somehow miraculously this "fact" doesn't apply to Muhammad's message. You only have the Koran's word that the message of earlier prophets was corrupted. I also like your circular reasoning, that Muhammad's absence proves this. You do know Muhammad isn't around today? Right?

As a fundamentalist MusAs a fundamentalist Muslim who follows the Salaf (Islam as understood by Muhammad and his companions at the time) i dont believe his message was corrupted, as long a you remain a Salafi of course. The other islamic deviations (madhabs, shias, twelvers, etc) i regard as a corruption of the message. lim who follows the Salaf (Islam as understood by Muhammad and his companions at the time) i dont believe his message was corrupted, as long a you remain a Salafi of course. The other islamic deviations (madhabs, shias, twelvers, etc) i regard as a corruption of the message.

So you acknowledge Muhammad's message has been corrupted. The Salafi movement emerged only about 100 years ago, promoting literalism and a return to what they think were the practices and beliefs of the original Muslims. But how can they know anything for certain after so much time has lapsed? Thank God there has been no such nonsense in Christian history.

I dont see any blind spots here. You as a non Muslim regard Islam as a religioin founded by Muhammad. we Muslims dont believe this. We believe Islam has always been around, and Muhammad was the FINAL prophet. Not the founder.

As I said earlier, it's clever tactic for a newly-invented false religion to make out as if it's always been around. Gives it the appearance of credibility and avoids awkward questions such as: Why did your god wait so long to reveal the way of salvation to man? Would all the people who had lived before have gone to Hell in their ignorance? What sort of god could be so cruel? And, Are you sure you didn't just make all this up like five minutes ago?

On the other hand, we Christians know that Salvation has always been through faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even in Old-Testament times.

Gal 3:6-9
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

There is, and always has been, only one Gospel.

Gal 1:6-8
]6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

I pray that God will open your eyes and reveal to you your double standards and self-confident ignorance.


In His grip,

P. P.

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: the furry fandom is dead or dieing *thread hijacked by Islamic terrorist*

What I really don't understand is when Mohammed decided to become a furry. Sorry, this thing about being an injun and not having the brains of white heterosexual American Christian.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: the furry fandom is dead or dieing *thread hijacked by Islamic terrorist*

What I really don't understand is when Mohammed decided to become a furry.

Hadith collection
Sunan Abu Dawud / Book 20 / Hadith 3200

Narrated Al-Muttalib:
When Uthman ibn Maz'un died, he was brought out on his bier and buried. The Prophet (ﷺ) ordered a man to bring him a stone, but he was unable to carry it. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) got up and going over to it rolled up his sleeves. The narrator Kathir told that al-Muttalib remarked: The one who told me about the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: I still seem to see the whiteness of the forearms of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) when he rolled up his sleeves. He then carried it and placed it at his head saying: I am marking my brother's grave with it, and I shall bury beside him those of my family who die.

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَهَّابِ بْنُ نَجْدَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا سَعِيدُ بْنُ سَالِمٍ، ح وَحَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ الْفَضْلِ السِّجِسْتَانِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا حَاتِمٌ، - يَعْنِي ابْنَ إِسْمَاعِيلَ - بِمَعْنَاهُ عَنْ كَثِيرِ بْنِ زَيْدٍ الْمَدَنِيِّ، عَنِ الْمُطَّلِبِ، قَالَ لَمَّا مَاتَ عُثْمَانُ بْنُ مَظْعُونٍ أُخْرِجَ بِجَنَازَتِهِ فَدُفِنَ أَمَرَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم رَجُلاً أَنْ يَأْتِيَهُ بِحَجَرٍ فَلَمْ يَسْتَطِعْ حَمْلَهُ فَقَامَ إِلَيْهَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَحَسَرَ عَنْ ذِرَاعَيْهِ - قَالَ كَثِيرٌ قَالَ الْمُطَّلِبُ قَالَ الَّذِي يُخْبِرُنِي ذَلِكَ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ - كَأَنِّي أَنْظُرُ إِلَى بَيَاضِ ذِرَاعَىْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم حِينَ حَسَرَ عَنْهُمَا ثُمَّ حَمَلَهَا فَوَضَعَهَا عِنْدَ رَأْسِهِ وَقَالَ
" أَتَعَلَّمُ بِهَا قَبْرَ أَخِي وَأَدْفِنُ إِلَيْهِ مَنْ مَاتَ مِنْ أَهْلِي "
.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: the furry fandom is dead or dieing

It would take hours to tell you stories of all Prophets.

I'm not asking about the stories.
I'm asking you how you know the prophets actually existed.

I could tell you stories about Jack Beanstalk or Mary's little lamb. We could discuss whether the giant was fairly treated or whether the lamb was unduly put upon having to accompany Mary everywhere which surely must include places where one would normally allow privacy.

The existence of the story, however, does not confirm the existence of Jack, magic beans, giants in the sky, or bothersome ungulates desirous of sleeping in beds. (Or Mary sleeping outside under a tree.) I do not believe that there really was a Jack who planted magic beans but that doesn't affect my enjoyment of the story.

Prophets are in a different category. What they say or write (or don't say or don't write) suggests that I may (or may not) be destined for everlasting torment. Whether they actually existed, then, is critical to my understanding the stories. You're making claims about people you call prophets whose lives bear witness to the truth of your belief system. Since it's a system I utterly reject, the claims you're making about what the prophets did or said MUST be prefaced with an explanation of HOW you know they were REAL PEOPLE.

NOT stories about them. Without that explanation your prophets (or your version of them in some cases) are no more than Jack Beanstalk.