[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

I sincerely thing that you should try to express your thoughts without your obsession of formal logic in the form of 1. - 2. - concl., as you probably realize by now that it is not working.

Surely you also know that even if something can be proven by the laws of logic and an argument shows internal consistency, you would still have to provide observable/measurable/whatever evidence to make the argument true also on Earth.

Brother Professor Dr White, Sir, we were discussing this young person's problems over lunch today and one of my eldest twins pointed out that what is happening is that she is trying to do the reverse of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. (What is the reverse idiom for that? Bringing a waterpistol to a gunfight, perhaps.)

Anyway, what James (13) meant was that elementary, grade school logic was a wholly inadequate tool, especially when poorly understood/expressed. He says that given the interaction of syntax and semantics in the problem, what is required is something like Montague Grammar (aka Montague Semantics), because once you bring lambda-extraction into the equation, everything becomes crystal clear. He recommends Dowty, Wall & Peters (1980) as a good primer, with the work of Barbara Partee for supplementary reading.

I hope this helps?
YiC
Joanna

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

I am really rushed now, but I just want to point out that logic does not apply to God, and that is His "thing", what makes Him different from other (non existent) gods. That is one of the finest and purest proof of His existence: his refusal to accept any logic in the stories He write on the Bible.For example:If X is true, and Y denies X, then either X or Y are not true.
But God is the same as Jesus and the Holy Ghost, and they are three different persons AT THE SAME TIME. That is not logic, and is even not understandable in our logic standards. Nevertheless, both statements are true and contradictory.
Logic is for humans. God is above every law there is. Physics, chemistry, mathematics (Pi is 3 in the Bible, not 3,1416), biology. Talking donkeys, people living inside whales, babies born without sperm involved, water becoming wine, fishes multiplied, rivers opening and closing to drown enemies, talking bushes in fire, people living 900 years. We believe all of that and I will defend the existence of all those stories even against solid evidence and scientific falsation.
So no, the answer is no. There is no logic to bound God to something and also there is no logic in believing in God. There is only faith and faith alone.

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

I feel... so lost. What I'm getting from all of this is:

Logic is fine when it's convenient


You value truth, as long as truth is the teachings of Jesus, the Bible etc.


I've encountered this before, but not to the level I see it here. That's probably a compliment for you. I'm not sure where to go from here. I can't point out the logical flaws in your arguments if you just ignore them. I'm not sure where to go from here.


And no, don't tell me that if I look for Jesus he will show me the way. I assure you, your position is even more obviously wrong to me than mine is to you.

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

I feel... so lost. What I'm getting from all of this is:

Logic is fine when it's convenient


You value truth, as long as truth is the teachings of Jesus, the Bible etc.


I've encountered this before, but not to the level I see it here. That's probably a compliment for you. I'm not sure where to go from here. I can't point out the logical flaws in your arguments if you just ignore them. I'm not sure where to go from here.


And no, don't tell me that if I look for Jesus he will show me the way. I assure you, your position is even more obviously wrong to me than mine is to you.

If you look for Jesus, he will show you the way.


And no, you haven't shown any logical flaw in any of our arguments. And still haven't introduced yourself in your intro thread.

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

I assure you, your position is even more obviously wrong to me than mine is to you.

That is a quite a bold assertion. Bear in mind that you have absolutely no knowledge of how obviously wrong your position is to us.


How would you justify it? Please show your workings.

[Johny Joe Hold]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

I have studied this science thing and perhaps could help.

In science there is the "null hypothesis." It is a positive statement that science then tries to disprove. The null hypothesis is perfect for understanding God.

Let's state a null hypothesis and then see if we can disprove it. I'm going to select one atheists love. It is as follows:

ATHEISTS ARE GOING TO HEAVEN.

The job of the scientist is to disprove that hypothesis--make it null. It turns out to be quite easy. The scientist simply reads Matthew 12:31-32. It tells us God will punish anyone who does not believe in the Holy Spirit.

Problem solved. Atheists are going to hell. Science has just proven it.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

And still haven't introduced yourself in your intro thread.

Oh! No there's not much actual information, is there. One area that could be covered is whether 2 objects can be in the same place at the same time or whether a single object can have multiple locations at once?

But God is the same as Jesus.….AT THE SAME TIME.

That would be a segue from Aristotle's claim about "logic" to God's word as preserved for us in Scripture. There are a number of references that would be appropriate; here's two for starters:

Genesis 1:6-7 God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Revelation 10:5-6 The angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer.

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

I have studied this science thing and perhaps could help.

In science there is the "null hypothesis." It is a positive statement that science then tries to disprove. The null hypothesis is perfect for understanding God.

Let's state a null hypothesis and then see if we can disprove it. I'm going to select one atheists love. It is as follows:

ATHEISTS ARE GOING TO HEAVEN.

The job of the scientist is to disprove that hypothesis--make it null. It turns out to be quite easy. The scientist simply reads Matthew 12:31-32. It tells us God will punish anyone who does not believe in the Holy Spirit.

Problem solved. Atheists are going to hell. Science has just proven it.

So, so much wrong here. Yes, the null hypothesis is something science tries to disprove, but it can't just be anything you want it to be. It is always:


"There is no connection between x and y"


..until proven otherwise. That's the point. So, in your case, (assuming Heaven exists), there is no connection between Atheists and going to heaven until proven otherwise. Similarly, there is no connection between Atheists and going to hell until proven otherwise.


Perhaps coincidentally, Atheism is the null hypothesis when it comes to theology. There is no connection between any god and existing until proven otherwise. This is not to say Atheists believe that no god exists. We just believe that Theists have not met the burden of proof placed on your shoulders by the null hypothesis.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

So, so much wrong here...

So why are you adding to it?

...This is not to say Atheists believe that no god exists...

Except, that's what defines atheism. And please stop capitalizing it, it's not a proper noun.

...We just believe that Theists have not met the burden of proof placed on your shoulders by the null hypothesis.

And please stop projecting your false beliefs onto others. Ta.

[Alphonse Alban]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Praise the LORD!
Another seeker of truth. Welcome, you are amongst the friends here!
I, too, think that logic is very important. This it why I have previously used logic to prove divine truths about the most holy KJV Bible!


LINK HERE -> Checkmate atheists! Bible proven as 100% accurate fact by logic!



GLORY!

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

You value truth, as long as truth is the teachings of Jesus, the Bible etc.

Well DUH!

When is it finally going to sink into that complete failure of a head of yours that THIS IS A CHRISTIAN FORUM! It's literally mentioned on every page.

Amazing.

I can't point out the logical flaws in your arguments if you just ignore them.

One of the many many many many mistakes you are making here is assuming you are right and everyone else is wrong.

If you would actually be capable of logic you would be able to realize how extremely unlikely it is that you are the only person in the universe who is right. Much more likely is that the majority is right and that you are wrong. But analyzing probability requires logical thinking, and you have proven over and over again of being incapable of actually doing that.

You talk the talk, but you are not even close to walking the walk.

Enjoy Hell, you clearly deserve it.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

"There is no connection between x and y"

There are other ways to use the null hypothesis: it depends on what you're trying to demonstrate. But why the sudden change of subject? You had been going on about x equalling x using Aristotle's approach to (for example) objects in motion. The problem being that when you use logic of that type it's always necessary to re-define reality—which is easy enough to see—so that she accords with your preconceptions.

X would normally be taken to represent anything. "It," say; the thing in question.

With that being stated, I hope you will agree that these rules are imperative to all discussion, and that disobeying them leads to anarchy.

I don't suppose it's your fault you're European. But I should point out that this stuff you enthusiastically spout originates there. Their philosophers weren't all based in Athens where Paul gave his address on Mars Hill (already cited but here Acts 17:16-22 is the preamble from Luke's testimony) but even so from Euclid to Archimedes it was all downhill to the Greece we know today.

Therefore two points need addressing before you move on to your new topic.

• Firstly: what was the status of your "Laws" at the moment of Creation?
• Secondly: the question of how someone who is to be obeyed mutates into someone who obeys, anything at all, at any time, ever?

If you prefer to ignore those applications of if x is a true statement then x is a true statement, simply moving on to something else instead, we'd wonder why you bothered to introduce it in the first place and probably conclude that questions regarding your other statements would equally remain unaddressed.

There are several other issues but those two will do for now. Perhaps in your reply you could include a Scripture passage you have found encouraging. I've re-read your posts in this introduction but as yet you have not cited anything identifying the very thing you're trying to disprove.

[Funkadelia]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Except, that's what defines atheism.

I was an atheist before I found His Noodly Appendage, but surely believing with 100% certainty that there is no God is just as foolish as believing that there is one, with similar certainty? I wasn't around for the creation/formation of the universe, so even when I was an atheist, I didn't claim that I knew that there was no God. Rather, I chose to have no faith that any God exists. A "glass half-empty" view.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

...but surely believing with 100% certainty that there is no God is just as foolish as believing that there is one, with similar certainty?...

Explain why. Don't just give an assertion.


And the a- part of atheist means "without", as in "without god", not "without everybody else's gods as they've explained them to me because they haven't convinced me 100%", so you never were atheist.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

"glass half-empty"

Half a life.

But our lives are full. The Bible tells us that with Christ we become more alive than would otherwise be possible. And it has nothing to do with spaghetti.

Psalms 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.