[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Mr Old Man, I am not trying to disprove God. I am merely trying to break down this argument

By the same logic, we cannot measure God but we can measure His creation. So following your logic, you have just proven that God exists, because His creation (everything we see) exists. Good job!

Let me help you: the logic is ok, you have to attack the premises here.
The premise that God created the world is the one that needs to be proven. The logic is ok.
1) If God created the world, and 2) we can measure the world, then 3) God's existence is proven.

See the "if"? That's the problem. For an atheist, it is not proven that God created the world. You tried to attack the logic (the intelligence?) of a TC, and did not realize that the problem here is a difference of premises.


We prove 1 through the Bible. And here it comes another premise you have to address. But I will let you do it.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

...I am not trying to disprove God. I am merely trying to...

Continue arguing about nothing with strangers for no point other than showcasing your intellectual conceits.


I'm guessing that it will be rather pointless to ask when you're going to read the Bible?

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

You're right that the new argument you present does not contain a fallacy. This is because you moved from

If God existed (and did what the Bible said he did), the world would exist.


to


God created the world.


In this case there is no logical premise, but you the burden of proof to prove that God created the world.


The original statement, though, gave me the impression that it was making the argument as I presented it in syllogistic form, namely;

Premise 1: If the Bible were true (Particularly the bit where God exists and creates the universe) the universe would exist.
Premise 2: The universe exists
Conclusion: The Bible (at the very least, that bit of it) is true and God does exist.

However, I accept that your interpretation of the argument may be right. This is why I asked, and ask again, for clarification from Basilissa, who made the original argument.




As for the Ad Hominem;

I am not calling you stupid. I call your actions stupid, then not ad hominem at all.

Please study and come back, child.

Directly after claiming you are not trying to insult me, you talk down to me condescendingly. For the sake of the argument, it would be preferable if you acted civil, as I have tried to.

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Continue arguing about nothing with strangers for no point other than showcasing your intellectual conceits.

A semi-digested (and largely misunderstood) Logic 101 primer can often lead the young into error. I know this from raising my own children and I think perhaps we need to be kinder and explain things more slowly.

Directly after claiming you are not trying to insult me, you talk down to me condescendingly. For the sake of the argument, it would be preferable if you acted civil, as I have tried to.

I think you need to be less sensitive, dear.

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Mr Old Man, I am not trying to disprove God. I am merely trying to break down this argument;

And explain why it is invalid.

I am afraid you will have to do your own homework. It will be hard at first but once you get used to it, it will be a lot more satisfying to do it yourself!

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Originally Posted by Joanna Lytton-Vasey

I think perhaps we need to be kinder and explain things more slowly

We're on the same page here. So much confusion. I was alerted very early in POST #1 to the level of reasoning b☓eing applied; I'd only read as far as some stuff about logic being imperative to all beliefs and then a section about "Identity" highlighted in red if anyone clicks the link. The following remark leapt out at me:

Originally Posted in an earlier post

if the statement "God exists" is true, the statement "God exists" is true

Euclid eat your heart out! After that clunker there didn't seem much point reading on. Let's try some more examples.

if the statement "Pigs have wings" is true, the statement "Pigs have wings" is true

if the statement "All frogs are ducks" is true, the statement "All frogs are ducks" is true

Here's a good one.

if the statement "Objects can be in multiple places at the same time" is true, the statement "Objects can be in multiple places at the same time" is true

Leading immediately to:

if the statement "Heaven occupies zero space" is true, the statement "Heaven occupies zero space" is true

Now if Heaven occupies zero space what are the dimensions of its subdivisions?
Take the moon for example.
Is it smaller than Heaven or the same size?
Perhaps it is of negative diameter?

For Christians it's a moot point. God has already explained about the heavens not only in Genesis 1 but here too:

II Chronicles 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

Just reading the first page isn't good enough. ALL of God's wisdom is required when making pronouncements concerning reason and once that's been understood the fundamental properties of Creation are settled. God is not someone who obeys, He's someone who's obeyed and no Christian ever contradicts Him.

..Thank you Jesus

Thank you Lord

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

I think you need to be less sensitive, dear.

Honestly the "insults" are quite entertaining. They make conversation a bit more difficult though.


Mrs Lizalor, I'm not sure what you're so excited/upset about. If x is true, x is true. Everything has to be based on this.


Cranky Old Man, I'm also not sure what you mean by this;

I am afraid you will have to do your own homework. It will be hard at first but once you get used to it, it will be a lot more satisfying to do it yourself!

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

You're right that the new argument you present does not contain a fallacy. This is because you moved from

If God existed (and did what the Bible said he did), the world would exist.


to


God created the world.


In this case there is no logical premise, but you the burden of proof to prove that God created the world.


The original statement, though, gave me the impression that it was making the argument as I presented it in syllogistic form, namely;

However, I accept that your interpretation of the argument may be right. This is why I asked, and ask again, for clarification from Basilissa, who made the original argument.




As for the Ad Hominem;



Directly after claiming you are not trying to insult me, you talk down to me condescendingly. For the sake of the argument, it would be preferable if you acted civil, as I have tried to.

It is not as hominem when you are still not saying your age or gender. I am simply trying to communicate with you and I only have the clues you leave on your posts. I genuinely think you are no older than 14, you are in high school and English is a second language to you. It is not ad hominem, it is curiosity.

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

It is not as hominem when you are still not saying your age or gender. I am simply trying to communicate with you and I only have the clues you leave on your posts. I genuinely think you are no older than 14, you are in high school and English is a second language to you. It is not ad hominem, it is curiosity.

It is not merely quite rude to barge in without introducing yourself, it is also against the rules of the introduction forum, which are very clearly set out at the top of the page: "This the ONLY subforum you can start threads in. Here is where you introduce yourself. Tell us what church you go to and what your favorite Bible verse is and how you came to find Jesus."

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

My background is not of much significance.

That is true Gal:3:28. We are all one in Christ.

I am an Anti theist from Europe,

You just said that your background was not important... why are you giving me background?

One metaphysical concept I value above all others is logic; I believe it, alongside evidence, is the only way of finding out Truth. I think many people on these forums would agree with that.

I like my signature.

So, here I present to you The Three Laws of Logic:

Were those laws established by God at the Creation?


Who spoke these "laws"? Was he a man?

The Law of Identity

If a statement is true, it is indeed true.
That is to say, if the statement "God exists" is true, the statement "God exists" is true.
Or, as a formula: P = P

Here at Landover, we call that one "The Rule of the Blindingly Obvious."

The Law of Non-Contradiction

If a statement is true, it is not false in the same sense, and vice verse.

You haven't met Mrs Bathfire, have you?
She asked me where her car keys were only yesterday. I replied, "I have no idea." -> a truth value of 1.
She replied "You're a great help, aren't you?"
Now I had been a great help as I had reduced the number of people in the world who could not help her. Thus, that was simultaneously untrue

The Law of Excluded Middle

A statement can either be true or false, there is no alternative.

All generalizations are inaccurate, including this one.


Where are you with this one?

Next I present the potentially outrageous statement that even God must be subject to these laws.

And yet you live in Europistan. I would refer you to Romans:9. God can do as He wishes. He cannot be bound by His creations.

The argument, broken down, is as follows:

Premise 1: The Bible is fact.
Premise 2: The Bible states that the Bible is fact.
Conclusion: The Bible is fact.

This argument is fallacious, as its first premise relies on its conclusion.

I agree, it is fallacious, It is not the Bible, that says this, it is God. Why would God lie?

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Cranky Old Man, I'm also not sure what you mean by this;

No surprise there. You will find the answers you seek in Isaiah 3:11.

[BrotherLarry]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

I may not have a PhD in Creation Science, but I remember one TRUTH that Dr. Elmer White taught the class when we were studying The Origins of Man:


God exists because the entire Bible is based on His existence. Without Him , the Bible doesn't exist because He is the Author and Inspiration of each Word. Logic, on the other hand, is a relative thing and usually makes more complicated that which is actually very simple. Christ told me to have the faith of a child. If my father tells me something, I believe it. How much more so do I believe everything my Heavenly Father says!


I sincerely think that logic and Christianity are deeply intertwined and yet diaphoretically opposed. Think: If I am a Christian, do I need Plato or Diaphopacles or any of the other ancient Egyptians to tell me how to live my life? No. And you know why? Because JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH tells me how to live my life, and He is always always always always always right. You can not find a single flaw in Holy Scripture because each line and verse was breathed by my Creator, my beautiful Master, my Savior, my King.


GLORY!

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

I'm not sure what you're so excited/upset about. If x is true, x is true. Everything has to be based on this.

100% is quite a rare level of certainty but even pre-verbal infants know what you're claiming about x.

Let represent "Waaaaaaaaa!"

Baby knows that if is true, is true.

Mother also knows this and can distinguish from other sounds.

Although baby is unaware of conditional clauses, the certainty of is 100%

is the basis for everything external to baby.

Mother has additional factors to balance against but as far as baby goes, is true.

Baby knows this.

Aristotle also understood that but made the mistake of using x = x as a basis for "obeying logic" in the real world. Yes, I know the concept of obeying something you just made up for yourself is ridiculous and many of Aristotle's ravings were refuted at the time (or had already been refuted before he declaimed them) as a result. Not only did Aristotle contradict Scripture (as did Democritus and Epicurus for that matter) but the nonsense he inserted for x produced unsound conclusions.

We have already seen that Heaven (or any number of multi-Heavens) cannot contain God. Whether or not the universe is currently inside out is therefore immaterial. Some Athenians would have understood the concept. Aristotle not so much.

But what does any of this have to do with Christianity?

PAUL

Acts 17:18-19 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

There is too much here for me to argue with, so I will attempt to assert just one thing: The laws of logic are factual/true.

You cannot make a true statement or argument without applying them. I challenge you to do so - but please, for the sake of avoiding confusion and rabbit holes, pick something we can all agree on.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

There is too much here for me to argue with, so I will attempt to assert just one thing: The laws of logic are factual/true.

You cannot make a true statement or argument without applying them. I challenge you to do so - but please, for the sake of avoiding confusion and rabbit holes, pick something we can all agree on.

Dear Shirley,

I sincerely thing that you should try to express your thoughts without your obsession of formal logic in the form of 1. - 2. - concl., as you probably realize by now that it is not working.

Surely you also know that even if something can be proven by the laws of logic and an argument shows internal consistency, you would still have to provide observable/measurable/whatever evidence to make the argument true also on Earth. For us , the hierarchy of evidence is as follows:

1. The Bible.
2. Prayer.
3. True Christian™ eyewitness testimony.
4. Other True Christian™ testimony.
5. Science as a supplement to Scripture.

I suggest and pick a verse that we surely can agree on:

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer