[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

I've read all the posts so far with interest and note that no "proven" anything has turned up yet, other than Biblical claims related to healing (or therapy) which would include massage therapy. Something else I read before posting anything myself was what the ashiatsu people had to say themselves. They have a website done in pastel shades including a page: "What Exactly is Ashiatsu, Anyway?" and although it may not be authoritative (I did not investigate that since I'm not linking to it but it's pretty easy to find) what exactly it is is described as follows. Firstly, it's claimed to be ancient:

Is it an Eastern or Western Technique?

In the Kerala region of India, home of Ayurveda, a practice called “Chavutti Thirumal” is believed to be one of the earliest ancestors of ashiatsu … This region of India is the home of the ancient art of Kalaripayattu, a martial art ancestor to Kung Fu, and Kathakali, a classical style of dance.

So many red flags
• India –› world sump of hindoo idolatry –› Habakkuk 2:18
• Ayurveda –› antediluvian crackpottery involving chakras –› Jeremiah 10:14-15
• Kalaripayattu –› Shrouded in deep mystery and mists of secrecy –› Mark 4:21-22
• martial art –› demonic –› celebrates the "gods" Mars (name) & Shiva (posture)
• Kung Fu –› demonic –› https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA5vIcWP4wY&t=23
• Kathakali –› demonic –› https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6JiokZR-m0
• classical style of dance –› demonic and idolatrous –› https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dPt2WPtlNg

There really isnt any underlying philosophy … I havent found anything religious or cultish about it

Although we appreciate your engaging with our comments and questions, that response seems different from something really underlying the whole tradition according to sources promoting ashiatsu including the ashiatsu site. There is always a "spiritual" element in anything of this type but if you ask them what "spiritual" means generally they can't tell you. It is nothing like Christianity so why try to incorporate Jesus into something He would have opposed?

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

... a practice called “Chavutti Thirumal” is believed to be one of the earliest ancestors of ashiatsu ...

That sounds like an Indian flatbread-making technique. Do you suppose they massage it flat with their feet?

[Alex112]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

I'm still actually waiting for you to answer that question.
How do you know? If you wish to provide evidence about things sinful and immaculate you should, similar to science, provide actual research data. In the case of sin, what is your source to determine when an action belongs to that category? Hint: We use it all the time. Without data you're once again just giving us opinions and your opinions may be correct or false but without evidence they're the Schrödinger's cat of Truth™. As for proof, the Bible also states plainly that it needs to be demonstrated.

Exodus 15:25
And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them,

The Lord showed evidence. Are we to determine that you're so much more reliable and faultless that your plain assertions would suffice?


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

https://www.scienceofmassage.com/2013/07/ashiatsu-barefoot-massage-as-a-form-of-sports-therapy/

Here is a quote from the article hold on theres more


Most clients report significant decreases in pain and significant increases in range of motion and athletic performance. Clients with sports or repetitive-strain injuries receiving Ashi-Thai often find they are even more flexible after the sessions than before the tissues were strained!



And this article is about massage in general (it diesnt talk about ashiatsu necessarily but...


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://time.com/5085140/massage-health-benefits/%3Famp%3Dtrue&ved=2ahUKEwjx7Zyg767pAhUyoXIEHThDBlM QFjABegQIDRAK&usg=AOvVaw3stwe1okbxaJOEaW4G6-ny&ampcf=1


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.athletico.com/2013/01/09/the-science-behind-why-massage-works/&ved=2ahUKEwin6-nb7q7pAhUIgXIEHX_FA8EQFjAZegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0UEbk PVR2A8sI5FT3fzCEa

[Alex112]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

I've read all the posts so far with interest and note that no "proven" anything has turned up yet, other than Biblical claims related to healing (or therapy) which would include massage therapy. Something else I read before posting anything myself was what the ashiatsu people had to say themselves. They have a website done in pastel shades including a page: "What Exactly is Ashiatsu, Anyway?" and although it may not be authoritative (I did not investigate that since I'm not linking to it but it's pretty easy to find) what exactly it is is described as follows. Firstly, it's claimed to be ancient:

So many red flags
• India –› world sump of hindoo idolatry –› Habakkuk 2:18
• Ayurveda –› antediluvian crackpottery involving chakras –› Jeremiah 10:14-15
• Kalaripayattu –› Shrouded in deep mystery and mists of secrecy –› Mark 4:21-22
• martial art –› demonic –› celebrates the "gods" Mars (name) & Shiva (posture)
• Kung Fu –› demonic –› https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA5vIcWP4wY&t=23
• Kathakali –› demonic –› https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6JiokZR-m0
• classical style of dance –› demonic and idolatrous –› https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dPt2WPtlNg

Although we appreciate your engaging with our comments and questions, that response seems different from something really underlying the whole tradition according to sources promoting ashiatsu including the ashiatsu site. There is always a "spiritual" element in anything of this type but if you ask them what "spiritual" means generally they can't tell you. It is nothing like Christianity so why try to incorporate Jesus into something He would have opposed?

Thank you. I'm trying my best to answer all your questions




Well even if some of you dont think it's an okay practice I'm still gonna become an ashiatsu therapist because I dont think it's that bad I've been a christian for a long time this isnt gonna make me stumble I think being an ashiatsu therapist is Gods calling for me in my life

There are worst things than ashiatsu that are not ashiatsu and are actually sinful to proven not to work like all of that foolish clearing the mind meditation sage burning and sun worship

[Didymus Much]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

...uncredited assertions deleted...

PLEASE, read and learn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Just because your source uses the word "science" doesn't mean that's what's actually happening. Look at the article you linked to. There's nothing there except her relating her own experiences. That's NOT science! There are no studies mentioned, nobody's reviewed her work to determine if maybe it's something unrelated to the massage that's actually providing the benefit, etc.

You're accepting HER WORD, because that's all the evidence offered, and that's just not good enough for anyone else.

Btw, no one here is asking you to take their word for anything. Any claims made here will have sources and evidence independent of the one making the claim made available.

When they let you go back to school, stay there, and try to make better use of your time there than you have until now.

[Alex112]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

PLEASE, read and learn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Just because your source uses the word "science" doesn't mean that's what's actually happening. Look at the article you linked to. There's nothing there except her relating her own experiences. That's NOT science! There are no studies mentioned, nobody's reviewed her work to determine if maybe it's something unrelated to the massage that's actually providing the benefit, etc.

You're accepting HER WORD, because that's all the evidence offered, and that's just not good enough for anyone else.

Btw, no one here is asking you to take their word for anything. Any claims made here will have sources and evidence independent of the one making the claim made available.

When they let you go back to school, stay there, and try to make better use of your time there than you have until now.

I'm still doing the proffession I've been waiting for years to become a massage therapist and I will finally have a chance. My wanted proffession is not sinful and I think it will be beneficial for people

[James Hutchins]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

Don't think for one minute that your ignoring of my comments is missed by any half intelligent person. Your ignorance of undeniable fact speaks volumes.God is watching.

Consider this:
You're riding your bike home, all tired after a long day of feeling up obese old people. A Good Humor truck comes and runs over your gut, causing your body to burst and spray entrails all over the street.

You're dead
Whether due to your own disgusting sinning or the Lords divine will, you are dead. Instantly your soul begins falling towards the black abyss above Hell. The falling seems eternal as you gather speed and the heat begins to grow. Then you notice a red dot below you growing larger by the second, this is the Lake in the center of Hell. It is the brightest point in Hell therefore it is visible for a great distance. Keep in mind that the farther you fall, the further from Christ you are.
As you gain speed and the flames become apparent you may wonder how you can stop this from happening. The answer is simple. It's too late and you can't, you're doomed. Your soul is damned and it WILL happen. The temperature is now approaching the unbearable limit as your flesh begins to smoulder and ignite and you continue to build speed as you plummet toward the now visible boiling Lake of Fire. You can almost make out individual souls thrashing in the magma with your flaming eyesockets. Soon you will join them, your terror mounts as your screams become gargled with the stench of Hells evil smell. The heat becomes excruciating as you notice your skin peeling away and your bones becoming visible and black. Flaming and screaming in anguish, you splashdown into the acidic brimstone of Satans Lake at around 250 MPH. You are instantly vaporized and reformed as a tormented soul writhing in absolute terror in the deafening depths of the Lake that Burns Eternal. The pain is beyond comprehension as you gnash your teeth so hard they shatter in your mouth. Satan periodically plucks you from the flames to savagely rape repeatedly and casually tosses you to his infernal minions to rip apart and rape at will, only to be reformed and have this scenario repeated...over and over and over, forever.
Is it still funny mocking our mission to Save© your soul? We want you to enjoy Heaven and eternal praise and worship at the feet of our Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ.

Unless you are Saved™ by Jesus Christ and His Holy website and favorite church, Landover Baptist, there is no other way to avoid this.

[Alex112]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

Don't think for one minute that your ignoring of my comments is missed by any half intelligent person. Your ignorance of undeniable fact speaks volumes.God is watching.

Consider this:
You're riding your bike home, all tired after a long day of feeling up obese old people. A Good Humor truck comes and runs over your gut, causing your body to burst and spray entrails all over the street.

You're dead
Whether due to your own disgusting sinning or the Lords divine will, you are dead. Instantly your soul begins falling towards the black abyss above Hell. The falling seems eternal as you gather speed and the heat begins to grow. Then you notice a red dot below you growing larger by the second, this is the Lake in the center of Hell. It is the brightest point in Hell therefore it is visible for a great distance. Keep in mind that the farther you fall, the further from Christ you are.
As you gain speed and the flames become apparent you may wonder how you can stop this from happening. The answer is simple. It's too late and you can't, you're doomed. Your soul is damned and it WILL happen. The temperature is now approaching the unbearable limit as your flesh begins to smoulder and ignite and you continue to build speed as you plummet toward the now visible boiling Lake of Fire. You can almost make out individual souls thrashing in the magma with your flaming eyesockets. Soon you will join them, your terror mounts as your screams become gargled with the stench of Hells evil smell. The heat becomes excruciating as you notice your skin peeling away and your bones becoming visible and black. Flaming and screaming in anguish, you splashdown into the acidic brimstone of Satans Lake at around 250 MPH. You are instantly vaporized and reformed as a tormented soul writhing in absolute terror in the deafening depths of the Lake that Burns Eternal. The pain is beyond comprehension as you gnash your teeth so hard they shatter in your mouth. Satan periodically plucks you from the flames to savagely rape repeatedly and casually tosses you to his infernal minions to rip apart and rape at will, only to be reformed and have this scenario repeated...over and over and over, forever.
Is it still funny mocking our mission to Save© your soul? We want you to enjoy Heaven and eternal praise and worship at the feet of our Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ.

Unless you are Saved™ by Jesus Christ and His Holy website and favorite church, Landover Baptist, there is no other way to avoid this.

Sorry I didnt respond when I have to wait alot of seconds between posts to reply to every post would take quite a few minutes to respond to every reply so that's why I forgot yours.


Getting to your point about what you said nothing sexual would happen in those places and it sounds more sinful the way your talking about it


It's just a simple massage sure theirs massage oil yes but....that's the same for lotion body wash or any other beneficial medicine or hair brush hair dryer whatever other than the massage nothing else happens its...a simple massage

[Isabella White]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

It's just a simple massage sure theirs massage oil yes but....that's the same for lotion body wash or any other beneficial medicine or hair brush hair dryer whatever other than the massage nothing else happens its...a simple massage

Oh, really, Miss Alex? If it's just a simple massage, then why do you think you shall be successful in this venture? Something tells me there is much more to this "profession" than just a "simple" massage. For goodness sake, most of us can still rub our own feet without paying for assistance!

[James Hutchins]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

Sorry I didnt respond when I have to wait alot of seconds between posts to reply to every post would take quite a few minutes to respond to every reply so that's why I forgot yours.


Getting to your point about what you said nothing sexual would happen in those places and it sounds more sinful the way your talking about it


It's just a simple massage sure theirs massage oil yes but....that's the same for lotion body wash or any other beneficial medicine or hair brush hair dryer whatever other than the massage nothing else happens its...a simple massage

That is always the way it is. Starts out simple and the next thing you know, you are servicing men in a rest stop on the thruway.


Innocently, you are having a conversation with 'one of the guys'. Talking about baseball perhaps.

The two of you play a game of catch. Eventually, you start to pitch and hit. Not realizing the abyss the two of you are slowly stepping into. See, Satan makes the slippery slope gentle at first.
Soon, you are one a team together. Sliding into home, oiling your mitts. Sharing your balls. High fiving.
Soon, you are playing in leagues for the other team. Showering together. Snapping towels. Best buddies, having each others back.
Before long, the two of you steal a base, travel for games unsupervised by a consenting adult. Perhaps sharing a meal. The two of you having private jokes that you tell each other late at night while sharing a seedy motel room.
Do you still think groping strangers is 'Good with God'?

[Alex112]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

That is always the way it is. Starts out simple and the next thing you know, you are servicing men in a rest stop on the thruway.


Innocently, you are having a conversation with 'one of the guys'. Talking about baseball perhaps.

The two of you play a game of catch. Eventually, you start to pitch and hit. Not realizing the abyss the two of you are slowly stepping into. See, Satan makes the slippery slope gentle at first.
Soon, you are one a team together. Sliding into home, oiling your mitts. Sharing your balls. High fiving.
Soon, you are playing in leagues for the other team. Showering together. Snapping towels. Best buddies, having each others back.
Before long, the two of you steal a base, travel for games unsupervised by a consenting adult. Perhaps sharing a meal. The two of you having private jokes that you tell each other late at night while sharing a seedy motel room.
Do you still think groping strangers is 'Good with God'?

Massaging is not groping and none of that stuff will happen I assure of you I wont let it happen

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

Well even if some of you dont think it's an okay practice I'm still gonna become an ashiatsu therapist because I dont think it's that bad I've been a christian for a long time this isnt gonna make me stumble I think being an ashiatsu therapist is Gods calling for me in my life

Dear Sinner. You're still confusing what science says with what we think. I don't think that ashiatsu be necessarily harmful, I was just stating that there is absolutely no actual data to show that it would be beneficial. It may be either, but that has not been demonstrated.

After Mr. Much, a vile atheist who still knows his science and alarmingly the Bible, had asked you not to refer to personal anecdotes, that were still the only kind of evidence you were able to provide. We don't think that shiatsu is something-or-the-other. We just try to seek actual information to determine its nature. You, however, go on with "I don't think that it is that bad".

• What are your methods to determine what is true or not?
• How do you do your research regarding ashiatsu? Please explain.

Second, let us look at you claim of being a Christian.

• What are your religious vies based on?
• Is it just "I think that it is God's calling"?
• How do you know that it is God who called you and not your own thoughts and emotions?
• How did you determine that? Was it your feeling? How do you know if you can trust it?

On the other hand, there is an actual Book, upon which Christianity is based. The KJV Bible. It has some things to say about massage. First, Esther, Chapter 2. Esther was prepared to be the king's consort (mixed-religion sex) by a 12-month course of massage. Massage was the heathen way to make women receptive for animal lusts.

Esther 2:12
Now when every maid's turn was come to go in to king Ahasuerus, after that she had been twelve months, according to the manner of the women, (for so were the days of their purifications accomplished, to wit, six months with oil of myrrh, and six months with sweet odours, and with other things for the purifying of the women)

Are you going to service clients of both sexes?

1 Corinthians 7:1
Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

Why as a Christian do you think that A) It is OK to make good money out of a practice that is non-scientific and/or B) based on the verses above, highly suspicious for an Actual Bible-believing Christian? Please don't tapdance around the questions and don't answer them with "I think" or by referring to narratives. Instead, answer them by using actual sources, scientific or Biblical.

There are worst things than ashiatsu that are not ashiatsu and are actually sinful to proven not to work like all of that foolish clearing the mind meditation sage burning and sun worship

This is one of the most basic fallacies in argumentation: the "two wrongs make a right" fallacy or "moral equivalency". It is a simple and extremely common but a totally irrational escape. If something is even worse than ashiatsu, does that make ashiatsu good?

• If Ebola is worse than Covid-19, does it mean that you should go on spreading the less lethal one?
• If killin' and rapin' 1000 altar boys is worse than killin' and rapin' 500 of them, is the 500 alternative OK when there is the choice of not committing either one of these atrocities.

Your claim is also partly a false dilemma, as if we had to choose between ashiatsu or something worse, as we can make the choice of not doing either one of them!

Massaging is not groping and none of that stuff will happen I assure of you I wont let it happen

As exemplified in the Book of Esther, there is a lot of preparation was sexual acts going on during massages. In this case, I give you witness testimonials, as that is probably the kind of evidence that you thrive in. How can we know that you will not seduced?

There are actual evidence-based manual therapies such as conventional physiotherapy. Why take on the ballast of massaging in a cumbersome manner with feet when you could do regular physiotherapy with known benefits on recuperation from arthroplasties, rehabilitation from strokes, gaining new skills with rheumatoid arthritis or for amputees etc. etc.? You have the burden of proof. Still.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Alex112]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

Dear Sinner. You're still confusing what science says with what we think. I don't think that ashiatsu be necessarily harmful, I was just stating that there is absolutely no actual data to show that it would be beneficial. It may be either, but that has not been demonstrated.

After Mr. Much, a vile atheist who still knows his science and alarmingly the Bible, had asked you not to refer to personal anecdotes, that were still the only kind of evidence you were able to provide. We don't think that shiatsu is something-or-the-other. We just try to seek actual information to determine its nature. You, however, go on with "I don't think that it is that bad".

• What are your methods to determine what is true or not?
• How do you do your research regarding ashiatsu? Please explain.

Second, let us look at you claim of being a Christian.

• What are your religious vies based on?
• Is it just "I think that it is God's calling"?
• How do you know that it is God who called you and not your own thoughts and emotions?
• How did you determine that? Was it your feeling? How do you know if you can trust it?

On the other hand, there is an actual Book, upon which Christianity is based. The KJV Bible. It has some things to say about massage. First, Esther, Chapter 2. Esther was prepared to be the king's consort (mixed-religion sex) by a 12-month course of massage. Massage was the heathen way to make women receptive for animal lusts.

Esther 2:12
Now when every maid's turn was come to go in to king Ahasuerus, after that she had been twelve months, according to the manner of the women, (for so were the days of their purifications accomplished, to wit, six months with oil of myrrh, and six months with sweet odours, and with other things for the purifying of the women)

Are you going to service clients of both sexes?

1 Corinthians 7:1
Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

Why as a Christian do you think that A) It is OK to make good money out of a practice that is non-scientific and/or B) based on the verses above, highly suspicious for an Actual Bible-believing Christian? Please don't tapdance around the questions and don't answer them with "I think" or by referring to narratives. Instead, answer them by using actual sources, scientific or Biblical.
This is one of the most basic fallacies in argumentation: the "two wrongs make a right" fallacy or "moral equivalency". It is a simple and extremely common but a totally irrational escape. If something is even worse than ashiatsu, does that make ashiatsu good?

• If Ebola is worse than Covid-19, does it mean that you should go on spreading the less lethal one?
• If killin' and rapin' 1000 altar boys is worse than killin' and rapin' 500 of them, is the 500 alternative OK when there is the choice of not committing either one of these atrocities.

Your claim is also partly a false dilemma, as if we had to choose between ashiatsu or something worse, as we can make the choice of not doing either one of them!

As exemplified in the Book of Esther, there is a lot of preparation was sexual acts going on during massages. In this case, I give you witness testimonials, as that is probably the kind of evidence that you thrive in. How can we know that you will not seduced?

There are actual evidence-based manual therapies such as conventional physiotherapy. Why take on the ballast of massaging in a cumbersome manner with feet when you could do regular physiotherapy with known benefits on recuperation from arthroplasties, rehabilitation from strokes, gaining new skills with rheumatoid arthritis or for amputees etc. etc.? You have the burden of proof. Still.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

The way I know I will not be seduced is because I'm strong minded against that I dont fall for that stuff people use to lure people to stumble. Its really not going to happen to me.


I know you werent saying it wasnt harmful I'm just defending my chosen proffession theirs nothing j want to do

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

The way I know I will not be seduced is because I'm strong minded against that I dont fall for that stuff people use to lure people to stumble. Its really not going to happen to me.

This is another personal justification, appeal to your own authority. It's still a fallacy. If you're a Christian you should know not to trust the flesh. Paul had no confidence in it. What makes you better than him?

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

I know you werent saying it wasnt harmful I'm just defending my chosen proffession theirs nothing j want to do!

Please use the "Preview post" function.

OK, I try to put it more plainly:

• How do you determine which is true and reliable.
  • In science?
  • Regarding Christianity?
• How do you tell the difference between good and bad information
  • In science?
  • In Christianity?
  • Regarding what you think is right and wrong?

We know that you're defending your position and that it is not your fault that during your education hitherto you were not given a proper toolbox to test claims. However, it will be your own fault if you obstinately refuse to make your toolbox better now that you - perhaps for the first time in your life - have stumbled upon a Forum where your default ways of argumentation (personal anecdotes, testimonials by others and repeating ad nauseam) won't work.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Faith_Machine]

Re: Hi my name is Alex

I'm sorry, where did you say you're located? I need to schedule a massage ASAP. I've got aches and pains you wouldn't believe.