[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Why are so many christians conservatives?

I'm advocating the use of all of Jesus' teachings..

except when He endorses the Old Testament and the Mosaic law.

what the Jews had established as their religion.

The Jews didn't establish their religion. God did.

..the New Testament should be used to support Christianity before quoting from the Old Testament.

That's not what Jesus said. If you think that the Jews cobbled together their own religion, what was the point of Jesus? How does killing things remove sin?

GENESIS 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweete sauour, and the LORD said in his heart, I will not againe curse the ground any more for mans sake; for the imagination of mans heart is euil from his youth: neither will I againe smite any more euery thing liuing, as I haue done.
©1611

EXODUS 29:15-18
15 Thou shalt also take one ram, and Aaron and his sonnes shall put their hands vpon the head of the ram.
16 And thou shalt slay the ramme, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about vpon the altar.
17 And thou shalt cut the ramme in pieces, and wash the inwards of him, and his legs, and put them vnto his pieces, and vnto his head.
18 And thou shalt burne the whole ramme vpon the Altar: it is a burnt offering vnto the Lord: It is a sweet sauour, an offering made by fire vnto the Lord.
©1611

II CORINTHIANS 2:15-16
15 For wee are vnto God, a sweet sauour of Christ, in them that are saued, and in them that perish.
16 To the one wee are the sauour of death vnto death; and to the other, the sauour of life vnto life: and who is sufficient for these things?
©1611

What was the point of burning excrement or of squirting blood over people? What was the point of Jesus' blood?

Exodus 24:8 . Exodus 29:14 . Exodus 29:20 . Exodus 29:21 . Leviticus 1:15

Without reading all of that - and much more - first, how can you know whether Jesus' teachings have any validity?

III JOHN 1:4 I haue no greater ioy, then to heare that my children walke in truth.
©1611

By calling Jesus a liar, and by mocking the efficacy of God's provision for His people through the ages so that they were not condemned to permanent torture and everlasting agony (while Jesus watches), you are not walking in truth. You are wallowing in error. That is how we know that you are going to Hell.

PSALM 52:2-5
2 Thy tongue deuiseth mischiefes: like a sharpe rasor, working deceitfully.
3 Thou louest euill more then good; and lying rather then to speake righteousnesse. Selah.
4 Thou louest all deuouring words, O thou deceitfull tongue.
5 God shall likewise destroy thee for euer, hee shall take thee away and plucke thee out of thy dwelling place, and roote thee out of the land of the liuing. Selah.
©1611

[BelieverInGod]

Re: Why are so many christians conservatives?

Well I was right, you ignored all of what I quoted from Jesus. Seems you ignore his words as well if they don't fit into your fuzzy bunny hippie version.

I'm really glad I didn't bother with the other three Gospels. After Matthew the Holy Spirit told me I was wasting my time on you.

So we should only take the words of Jesus?

Perhaps you should take a look at this.

Jesus is impolite. Deal with it.

Matthew
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
10:14-15 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
10:34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
15:4-6 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


I'd continue, but I doubt you can even be bothered to read the ones I've offered up.



Okay, I love how JesOS seems to change the font whenever you idiots do a copy/paste from another site. Now please explain how Titus 3:10-11 fits into your fuzzy bunny form of Christianity? It's telling us to reject heretics. Do you know what a heretic is?

[Popdart]

Re: Why are so many christians conservatives?

Okay, I admit that I was wrong about some things. I admit that I contradicted myself however let me explain from a different point of view. The Bible is not perfect because God is not perfect. Before you burn me for heresy, hear me out.

God is supposedly omnipotent. Omnipotent is derived from the Latin words Omni Potens which translates to "all power". God is supposedly all powerful. He created the universe and everything in it. He can supposedly do anything. Now let me ask you a question.

Can God create an object that he cannot lift?

There are only two answers to this question: he either can create it, or he cannot. If God could create an object that he could not lift, then he is not all powerful because if he was all powerful then he could lift everything. If God could not create an object that he could not lift because he was able to lift everything, then he is not all powerful because God is supposed to be able to create anything. Another contradiction of God's omnipotence is the story of Genesis, particularly Genesis 2:2:

2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

If God were truly omnipotent, he would have no need for rest. The all powerful being and creator of the universe would not rest for he would not get tired.

Another aspect of my argument is that God is supposedly omniscient. This is similar to omnipotence however omniscience means that God is all knowing. He supposedly know everything that ever was, currently is, and ever shall be. He knows the past, the present, and the future.

However the Bible provides several examples that demonstrate why God is not omniscient. The Book of Genesis contains a few examples. When God created the universe, he created everything. This includes the creation of Hell and Satan. My question is: why would God create a being and a place that is specifically designed to torment his later creations (humanity)? He would know, because he is omniscient, that he would create humans in the future, that he would make them in his image, and that Satan would tempt Eve with the apple. God must of created sin for the purpose of testing humanity, rather than choosing to keep humanity pure.

Another example is the story of Noah's Ark. God must have known (if he were omniscient) that humanity would become so wicked and evil that he would have to scour the Earth of their taint. My question is: why did God wait so long? He could have corrected humanity's corruption much sooner and far less violently than what he had to resort to with the Flood. In fact, if he were omnipotent, he would not have needed to resort to a flood. He could have purified every man, woman, and child on Earth and he could have removed the evil upon the Earth because he is supposedly all powerful.

He could have but he didn't.

Now, if any one of you can give me an answer that completely and utterly disproves my argument , I will applaud you.

[Lycia The Repentant]

Re: Why are so many christians conservatives?

Now, if any one of you can give me an answer that completely and utterly disproves my argument , I will applaud you.

Ok, here you go.

Any questions?

[Popdart]

Re: Why are so many christians conservatives?

Any questions?

Yes. A few questions actually.

1. You did address the Paradox of the Stone in the first thread, however you overlooked an important point. If God created a stone (or an object, anything works) that was unliftable, and then proceeded to lift it, that means the stone was not unliftable at all. In this instance, God cannot create an unliftable stone because every stone that He creates is liftable by Him. The fact that he cannot create an object when he is supposedly omnipotent means that, in fact, He is not omnipotent because he cannot create a truly unliftable stone. I am interested in your response.

2. In your second thread, you did respond to a number of questions regarding the Epicurean Dilemma however I could not find anywhere that explained one of the core components of the dilemma:

Where did evil come from?

I know you said that the presence of evil creates the situations where good can shine through in regards to bravery and courage and things like that. But you did not address the core question which I reiterated above. Evil came from somewhere, whether from Satan or from within man's heart, and God created everything that has ever existed. Therefore, it can be said that because God created the potential for evil to exist, he indirectly created evil which has gone on to decimate people and corrupt much of humanity. A perfect God would not have created something that had the potential for much harm.

Your turn.

P.S. Thank you for a very intellectual conversation.

[Lycia The Repentant]

Re: Why are so many christians conservatives?

Yes. A few questions actually.

1. You did address the Paradox of the Stone in the first thread, however you overlooked an important point. If God created a stone (or an object, anything works) that was unliftable, and then proceeded to lift it, that means the stone was not unliftable at all. In this instance, God cannot create an unliftable stone because every stone that He creates is liftable by Him. The fact that he cannot create an object when he is supposedly omnipotent means that, in fact, He is not omnipotent because he cannot create a truly unliftable stone. I am interested in your response.

You are making the mistake of thinking that God is bound by logic. This is what I posted in my thread

Well, if we look at the definition of omnipotence, we see that there really isn't any paradox at all! If God is an omnipotent being, and if being omnipotent means He has unlimited power, it stands to reason that it is within his (unlimited) power to do things that are logical impossibilities. This means God can create square circles, make 2+2=5, and create stones that are too heavy for Him to lift and then proceed to lift them!

Its not that God is creating stones that are so heavy that only he can lift them, God can actually create a stone that is actually so heavy He cannot lift it but then He can proceed to lift it. He can do this because He is not limited in His abilities to do things simply because we cannot logically process them or understand them.

Think of it this way. I don't understand exactly how my computer works, but it doesn't stop my computer from working. That's because my computer's working isn't dependent on me understanding how it works.

2. In your second thread, you did respond to a number of questions regarding the Epicurean Dilemma however I could not find anywhere that explained one of the core components of the dilemma:

Where did evil come from?

I know you said that the presence of evil creates the situations where good can shine through in regards to bravery and courage and things like that. But you did not address the core question which I reiterated above. Evil came from somewhere, whether from Satan or from within man's heart, and God created everything that has ever existed. Therefore, it can be said that because God created the potential for evil to exist, he indirectly created evil which has gone on to decimate people and corrupt much of humanity. A perfect God would not have created something that had the potential for much harm.

Your turn.

P.S. Thank you for a very intellectual conversation. [/QUOTE]

What is your definition of perfection? Because the Bible clearly states that God is a perfect being, and it also states that God created evil.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" Amos 3:6

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" Lamentations 3:38

So either you accept a definition of perfection that includes the creation of evil, or believe that the Bible is contradictory. But only one of those choices leads to salvation!

[Popdart]

Re: Why are so many christians conservatives?

Think of it this way. I don't understand exactly how my computer works, but it doesn't stop my computer from working. That's because my computer's working isn't dependent on me understanding how it works.

You are correct in saying that the computer is not dependent on your knowledge of how it works, however it is dependent on the technician who built your computer. If the technician had no idea how to build a computer, your computer would not function correctly. By properly applying certain rules and knowledge regarding the construction of computers, a computer can be made that works properly.

Its not that God is creating stones that are so heavy that only he can lift them, God can actually create a stone that is actually so heavy He cannot lift it but then He can proceed to lift it. He can do this because He is not limited in His abilities to do things simply because we cannot logically process them or understand them.

The sheer fact that God can lift the stone renders it liftable. This means that the stone is no longer unliftable. By your logic, he can continue creating an unliftable stone and then proceed to lift them, rendering the stone no longer unliftable. It is impossible to have an unliftable object when there is an all-powerful God because the fact that an object is liftable contradicts the fact that it is unliftable. You cannot have a stone that is liftable and unliftable at the same time.

What is your definition of perfection? Because the Bible clearly states that God is a perfect being, and it also states that God created evil.

Let me give you one of the Bible's depictions of a perfect man.

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

The perfect man is one that eschews evil. Most Christians aspire to be free from sin and temptation. They eschew evil. Does this mean that the perfect God is one that eschews evil? And considering that the Bible says that God is perfect, should he also eschew evil? However it says, and I quote from your last response:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Does this mean that God is not perfect because he created evil, or does it mean that the perfect man is not one who eschews evil? I am curious to read your response.

[GOD=life]

Re: Why are so many christians conservatives?

He is not omnipotent because he cannot create a truly unliftable stone.

Looking from a purely logical point of view, God actually pulls off an amazing feat here. God proves that He is not omnipotent by not being able to prove that He is not omnipotent. Normally, the only way this works is that if X and !X are mutually exclusive, you can prove that X is true by proving that !X cannot possibly be true. What God does is proving that X is true (claim of non-omnipotence) by not being able to prove that X is true. Since the truth of the claim is tied to the invalidity of the claim, we conclude that God has to be omnipotent.

But think of it another way: what does it mean if a stone is heavy? God is the one who keeps all the objects (like stones) on earth through a mechanism called "intelligent pulling". It's not the perceived weight of the stone that keeps it from floating into space, it's God's decision to keep it there.

God can pick any object, even your toothbrush, and make it infinitely heavy. It's His decision. If you're lucky, He won't do so while it's in your mouth. Ouch!

So it's not God vs. the stone. It's God vs. God's decision. And only God - an omnipotent being - has the power to alter God's decision. And the Bible teaches us, God can and cannot be considered a singular entity.

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Re: Why are so many christians conservatives?

You are correct in saying that the computer is not dependent on your knowledge of how it works, however it is dependent on the technician who built your computer. If the technician had no idea how to build a computer, your computer would not function correctly. By properly applying certain rules and knowledge regarding the construction of computers, a computer can be made that works properly.

I think that Lycia's point is that none of us are "technicians" when it comes to understanding God. Yes, there is some arcane, hidden logic to it all, but we as mortal human beings cannot fathom it. So the Paradox of the Stone will perplex us, but to God (and the technicians who understand it, most likely angels) it makes perfect sense.

Let me give you one of the Bible's depictions of a perfect man.

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

The perfect man is one that eschews evil. Most Christians aspire to be free from sin and temptation. They eschew evil. Does this mean that the perfect God is one that eschews evil? And considering that the Bible says that God is perfect, should he also eschew evil? However it says, and I quote from your last response:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Does this mean that God is not perfect because he created evil, or does it mean that the perfect man is not one who eschews evil? I am curious to read your response.

There's a difference between eschewing (which means avoiding) and creating evil. God created evil to tempt us. It doesn't mean He wants us to follow it, nor does He support it in any way.

To put it in as an example, God is like a parent who is going away for the weekend so He deliberately leaves a bottle of booze out for their teenage son. The parent doesn't like booze, doesn't believe it's right in any way, but leaves it out as a test. The parent wants to see if the teen is responsible enough to not drink it. Does that make sense to you?

[Lycia The Repentant]

Re: Why are so many christians conservatives?

You are correct in saying that the computer is not dependent on your knowledge of how it works, however it is dependent on the technician who built your computer. If the technician had no idea how to build a computer, your computer would not function correctly. By properly applying certain rules and knowledge regarding the construction of computers, a computer can be made that works properly.

Now you're just being specious. Of course a computer technician knows how a computer works, but to make that comparison in relation to God is borderline blasphemy. We cannot ever hope to comprehend the true extent of God's power, and instead we should concern ourselves with the commandments He has set forth.

"The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29:29

The sheer fact that God can lift the stone renders it liftable. This means that the stone is no longer unliftable. By your logic, he can continue creating an unliftable stone and then proceed to lift them, rendering the stone no longer unliftable. It is impossible to have an unliftable object when there is an all-powerful God because the fact that an object is liftable contradicts the fact that it is unliftable. You cannot have a stone that is liftable and unliftable at the same time.

No, that isn't what I was saying at all! When God creates an unliftable stone and lifts it, it doesn't change the fact that the stone is still inherently unliftable. Think of it like this:

1. God creates a liftable stone.
2. God proceeds to lift it.
3. That doesn't change the fact that one of that stone's qualities is its liftability.

1. God creates an unliftable stone.
2. God proceeds to lift it.
3. That doesn't change the fact that one of that stone's qualities is its unliftability.

You really need to get it through your head that God created EVERYTHING, and is not bound by ANYTHING he created. If God created EVERYTHING, then it follows he created logic, and is not bound by it.

Let me give you one of the Bible's depictions of a perfect man.

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

The perfect man is one that eschews evil. Most Christians aspire to be free from sin and temptation. They eschew evil. Does this mean that the perfect God is one that eschews evil? And considering that the Bible says that God is perfect, should he also eschew evil? However it says, and I quote from your last response:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Does this mean that God is not perfect because he created evil, or does it mean that the perfect man is not one who eschews evil? I am curious to read your response.

Job 1:1 describes a perfect man, not the perfection of God. The fact that Job was a perfect man and eschewed evil doesn't mean that when God creates evil he isn't perfect, because they're meeting totally different standards for perfection.

I can say I have a perfect toaster because it makes toast exactly how I like it. Does that mean Job wasn't perfect because he didn't make toast? No! They're just perfect in very different, mutually exclusive ways.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Why are so many christians conservatives?

A perfect God would not have created something that had the potential for much harm.

Your main problem may be summed up in this single quoted sentence.

You believe that you, a human created by God, have the authority to define God, to define perfection, and to determine what actions God should or should not take.

If you wish to create your own little god in your mind, who is merely a reflection of yourself -- likes what you like, hates what you hate, thinks what you think -- then go ahead. But don't confuse your mirror with the all-powerful, all-knowing Creator of the Universe.

God determines what is good or evil. He determines what is right or wrong. He is perfect by HIS standard, not by YOURS. Your standards do not matter to God. Your thoughts on what is good or evil are not His concern. He doesn't care what you believe to be just.

You are attempting to define God out of existence, a method used by atheists for centuries. You take terms typically used to describe God, then redefine them to suit yourself.

Other atheists, like you, only succeed in their own minds. I can't imagine it's much of a challenge for you; you already agree with yourself that God is, by your limited human logic, logically impossible. You are just trying to rationalize it using tired old chestnuts like the unliftable rock or the Epicurean dilemma.

Do bear in mind that the Epicurean dilemma rests its foundation upon the concept of omnibenevolence, which is not to be found in the Bible. Bible Believing True Christians(tm) will never tell you God "loves everyone equally", and will never tell you that God is not the source of both good AND evil, peace AND war, light AND dark.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Why are so many christians conservatives?

The popdart seems to have given up on unliftable rocks (and moved on to something else) without ever bothering to define "lift" ..

I would be interested to hear a definition for that verb?

[BaronOB]

Re: Why are so many christians conservatives?

Enforcing God's Law, banning abortion, banning homosexuality, teaching the Bible in schools, reinstating Christian prayer in schools, ending divorce and bastardism?

I can add banning of drugs, atheism, child molestation, reinstating of Christian Values in our life!