[Jedediah]

Re: Devon is horrified

If I am understanding your posts correctly, son, you conjecture that faith alone is sufficient for Salvation™ while conveniently and characteristically ignoring Scripture that does not square with your preconceived, personal opinions.

James 2
10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Do you accept these Holy Words, or does the false Christ whispering into your ear (Matthew 24:24) tell you that you can reject these words like you do so many other verses of Scripture?

In your vain non-Biblical opinion, is there any reason at all to obey the Word of God?

[Levi Jones]

Re: Devon is horrified

Of course there are more choices than that, there are many different circumstances which may define a Christian, but you still refuse to answer any of my questions. I gave those two as examples because you seem to believe the ONLY way to be saved is to obey, nothing about Jesus' grace.

What else should we believe? From Jesus' own mouth.

Matthew 12:47-50 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Re: Devon is horrified

The ONLY way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. That is one of the foremost basic beliefs of Christianity. Are you even being serious about this?

Yes, you are correct, but Brother Johnny is also correct about following all the Bible. You see, for you to actually believe that Jesus Christ is your savior, you have to listen to Him (the Bible!). You can't just say "I believe in Jesus Christ", yet refuse to follow His commandments and be automatically Saved.

He addresses this issue right here:

Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Read those last verses closely. Jesus is saying there are people that will call Him "Lord" and do things in His name, but because they do not do the will of the Father (The Bible's commandments), they are evil.

See, Jesus is talking about you, Devon. This is why it's time for you to wake up and become a True Christian™. Don't be that "worker of iniquity" that says "Lord, Lord!"

[Devon~]

Re: Devon is horrified

You make this sound as if there are only 2 choices, and that is deceptive and most unChristian. Why! It is as if you wanted to trap us. Is this how you go about explaining Jesus in England? No wonder the country is filled with Hellbound atheists! We wish the world were full of people who know their Bible and obey everything AND [COLOR=RoyalBlue]know Jesus and are guided by him. Does that seem fair?

Of course there are more choices than that, there are many different circumstances which may define a Christian, but you still refuse to answer any of my questions. I gave those two as examples because you seem to believe the ONLY way to be saved is to obey, nothing about Jesus' grace. You just ask me questions back or say something irrelevant and I just go around in circles. What about just after Jesus' death in the years before the OT scriptures were available to Gentiles? They could not go into synagogues, it was illegal, so how were they to read the scriptures and know all of them? Did Jesus say to wait to spread the Good News to the Gentiles until there was a Bible they could read? No.

Also, you don't know anything about my country, or any country that isn't your own, so don't pretend you do.

I am wasting my time asking you questions and expecting answers that actually are relevant. You pick and chose what to ignore and pick at the smaller things that I say, generally missing my entire or most of my point/s, which is oh-so ironic.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Devon is horrified

[...]Is it someone who knows their Bible and obeys everything, even if they do not know Jesus, or is it someone who knows Jesus and is guided by him, no matter how much or little they know of the Bible?

You make this sound as if there are only 2 choices, and that is deceptive and most unChristian. Why! It is as if you wanted to trap us. Is this how you go about explaining Jesus in England? No wonder the country is filled with Hellbound atheists! We wish the world were full of people who know their Bible and obey everything AND know Jesus and are guided by him. Does that seem fair?

Jesus speaks the Word into our hearts, all of the Bible is about him. He IS the Word.

I agree, but then, should we not follow His every Word?

[Devon~]

Re: Devon is horrified

You DO know that over half of the Bible has nothing to do with Jesus, right? They Old Testament is where God laid down all of His rules. It is only the New Testament when God's gets upset with humanity so much that he kills (temporarily) his son, Jesus.

Jesus' sacrifice was preplanned from the beginging. The Old Testament is full of prophecies and allusions to Jesus. Do I really need to explain this? Jesus is everywhere in the Old Testament - not as a person - but in spirit and in prophecy and in the stories. Jesus and God are one - how can the OT be about God and not about Jesus?

Proverbs 8:22-31 (KJV)
22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

[Devon~]

Re: Devon is horrified

How do you know you are guided by Him if you don't know what is laid down in the Bible? How can you follow if you aren't reading the instruction manual on how to follow Him?

If Jesus speaks purely into our hearts, why not just throw out the entire Bible? By your logic, we don't need it. We just have to listen to what Jesus says in our hearts, right?

I do know what is in the Bible, I also understand it. You do not read your Bibles with the Spirit. As I have said - what of people who do not have Bibles? What of people who cannot read the law? Are they excluded from being saved because they do not have the King James? How are we to spread the word of God to other nations, and nations who may not have written languages?

I never said he speaks purely into our hearts, he does both. He teaches us in the Spirit about his Word, that is the only way we can read the Bible and not be blinded to its meaning. God shows us. He may speak into the hearts of people like in my example above, who cannot read the Bible, whether through persecution, inability or by having no means. Does God not speak into your hearts too?

It's a sad day when people are not able to understand that following the Bible's every word is the only way to salvation.

Uhh . . . no. Like, what? How can you say that? Have you not read the New Testament?

'Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." ' (John 14: 6,)

For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ. (2 Cor. 5:21,)

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9,)

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16,)

I could quote more, but I fear you won't even read them.

The ONLY way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. That is one of the foremost basic beliefs of Christianity. Are you even being serious about this?

[Gabriel Reproba]

Re: Devon is horrified

Jesus speaks the Word into our hearts, all of the Bible is about him. He IS the Word.

You DO know that over half of the Bible has nothing to do with Jesus, right? They Old Testament is where God laid down all of His rules. It is only the New Testament when God's gets upset with humanity so much that he kills (temporarily) his son, Jesus. Even then, Jesus makes it clear that the OT still applies:

Matthew 5:17-18 (King James Version)

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Please find the closest Baptist church and take some Bible study classes.

[Gabriel Reproba]

Re: Devon is horrified

And still my questions on the original texts/the translations are ignored . . . nevermind then.

Simple question: Why the hang-up on the fact that the current form of God's will in writing is a translation from something else? Would God allow His Word to be disseminated so widely in a false form? Besides, we don't even HAVE original transcripts of any of the Bible. Even if we DID, those are translations of the writer's God-inspired understanding of His Will into text. ALMOST EVERYTHING is a translation of some sort. The only thing that ISN'T is when God speaks to you to tell you about his will and to direct you to read His Word in the KJV Bible.

Unless you are saying that the Bible is NOT the Word of God, in which case, where do you get your belief in Jesus form, because he isn't really discussed anywhere else in historical documents. You aren't saying that you 1) believe in Jesus, who is only really descried in the Holy Bible but 2) don't believe that the Bible is the True and Accurate word of God, are you? That would be just ...just.....insane.

[GOD=life]

Re: Devon is horrified

I have outlined what I do not agree with already

Why do you argue with people who follow the Bible? We didn't write it, we merely follow it. If you have a problem with the Bible, take it up with the author, God.

Jesus speaks the Word into our hearts, all of the Bible is about him. He IS the Word.

No, it's not. You probably have a children's Bible with stickers of glittery hearts and carebears.

Come back when you have an actual Bible. The KJV 1611 Bible.

[Johannes Kirkeholm]

Re: Devon is horrified

I understand Christianity is not about rainbows and sunshine, I have outlined what I do not agree with already, and I won't repeat myself as I have done enough repeating. I'm curious - what do you define as 'Christian'? Is it someone who knows their Bible and obeys everything, even if they do not know Jesus, or is it someone who knows Jesus and is guided by him, no matter how much or little they know of the Bible? Jesus speaks the Word into our hearts, all of the Bible is about him. He IS the Word.

A True Christian™ is of course someone who follows the entire Bible to the letter. if you don't obey the entire law you are guilty of all breaking all the commandments:

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If you don't know your Bible how do you expect to know Jesus? Do your feelings tell you what God believe? Do voices in your head? How do you know that these feelings or voices come from God and not your own mind?

We often hear something like this from false christians: "My views might contradict the teachings of the Bible but I know Jesus because He speaks to my soul."

These false Christians are basically saying that they know Jesus/God better than the people who wrote the Bible. They are saying that they know Jesus/God better than people who were divenely inspired!

How prideful and arrogant can you get?

Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

The Christian God is the God who is represented in the Bible. The omnibenevolent God that most false christians believe in is an invention of their own mind. An idol. And idolaters go to Hell:

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[Johny Joe Hold]

Re: Devon is horrified

If Jesus speaks purely into our hearts, why not just throw out the entire Bible? By your logic, we don't need it. We just have to listen to what Jesus says in our hearts, right?

Brother Levi--You have just blown open the hole that drains away all the self proclaimed Christians who do not believe in the Bible.

It's a sad day when people are not able to understand that following the Bible's every word is the only way to salvation.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Devon is horrified

I understand Christianity is not about rainbows and sunshine, I have outlined what I do not agree with already, and I won't repeat myself as I have done enough repeating. I'm curious - what do you define as 'Christian'? Is it someone who knows their Bible and obeys everything, even if they do not know Jesus, or is it someone who knows Jesus and is guided by him, no matter how much or little they know of the Bible?

How do you know you are guided by Him if you don't know what is laid down in the Bible? How can you follow if you aren't reading the instruction manual on how to follow Him?

Jesus speaks the Word into our hearts, all of the Bible is about him. He IS the Word.

If Jesus speaks purely into our hearts, why not just throw out the entire Bible? By your logic, we don't need it. We just have to listen to what Jesus says in our hearts, right?

[Devon~]

Re: Devon is horrified

Friend, I know Mr. Coleridge might seem "normal" to a fluffy bunny christian like yourself, but believe me, he is dangling precariously over the fires of Hell and needs to get right with Jesus if he ever wants to be Saved©. His (per)version of Christianity simply has NO basis whatsoever in the Bible, and you need to accept that if you ever want to reside in Heaven with us and laugh at all the degenerate sinners burning in Hell.

So one of the Ten Commandments isn't 'You shall not murder'? Because I'm pretty sure it is. Nobody's dangling near hell until they die - until then, everyone can be forgiven, everyone can come to God.

For example, you bring up the fact that we are working towards a world where Old Testament law still applies and then have the gall to say that that is crazy. Well, when attending services at your hippie church, did any of your pastors ever let you know that the Old Testament law still applies?

I never said that, I said it should be UNDERSTOOD in context with the New Testament. What I said is true - sins are forgiven by Jesus, only if you simply ask him. You do not need to punish people with beatings, etc for their sin, you should encourage them to repent, simple. Tell em how I am wrong without picking OT quotes - Jesus is there for anyone to ask his forgiveness.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-19


Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of the OT and created the new covenant. ( see 2 Corninthians 3)

"And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." Luke 16:17

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16

Yet your King James Bible is a translation or the original texts, and still nobody has said anything about how that works with this?

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21

Can it not be interpreted in the Holy Spirit then, as it was the Holy Spirit who moved them to write? Can God not reveal himself differently to different people in the Word? The Bible does not have to be interpreted to be understood.

Not enough evidence for you? Did you know that Jesus Himself condemned the Jews for not following the Old Testament and not killing children who didn't honor their mothers and fathers?

"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." Mark 7:9-13

'Die the death' as in go to Hell, the opposite of 'life' which is to go to heaven, not to be killed. But Jesus forgives, so that child can ask him for forgiveness like everyone else. It is only if they hold that sin in their heart do they 'die', but everyone has sin and everyone can be forgiven because of Jesus. This is where the original texts might have illuminated a little more of the context as the words for life and death vary in meaning through the Bible, similarly to 'love' in Greek, and the original languages can differentiate the closer meanings far better than English as English is a very limited language.

How about the fact that Jesus Himself actually broadened the terms of what constitutes adultery from committing the act to merely looking at somebody with lust?

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:27-28

Where's your point? I know that. But what you are missing is that sin can be FORGIVEN. It doesn't matter how broad the definition of adultery is, you missed my point entirely, once again. Jesus is highlighting sins. He is not saying they can never be forgiven, he is saying that unforgiven, these sins lead to hell, yet everyone CAN BE FORGIVEN if they simply ask and accept Jesus as saviour. This is where 'understanding' comes in. Which, just to clarify, is utterly different to interpretation.

If you don't like whats in the Bible and want to go to Hell, that's fine, I won't be losing any sleep over it, but will instead wipe the dust off my feet.

"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Matthew 10:14

But what I don't understand is why you would call yourself a Christian if that's the case. Christianity isn't about rainbows and sunshine, and we True Christians™ accept that. If you can't accept that, then why hang around? Why not just fully embrace paganism, heathenism, eastern philosophies or even (God forbid) atheism? They're all a lot more palpable to the "God is love" mindset you have, and they'll all be burning equally in Hell along with false christians like yourself.

I understand Christianity is not about rainbows and sunshine, I have outlined what I do not agree with already, and I won't repeat myself as I have done enough repeating. I'm curious - what do you define as 'Christian'? Is it someone who knows their Bible and obeys everything, even if they do not know Jesus, or is it someone who knows Jesus and is guided by him, no matter how much or little they know of the Bible? Jesus speaks the Word into our hearts, all of the Bible is about him. He IS the Word.

[Lycia The Repentant]

Re: Devon is horrified

Wow, you seem to be the first 'normal' person I've met on this forum. Yesterday this was all an incredible shock - I couldn't believe this was for real and that people actually think treating others such is displayed on this forum is okay with God or even for God. Applying old testament punishments to people who only need to ask God for forgiveness to be cleansed of the sin . . . it's crazy, especially in such instances as torture which a pastor did to his wife . . .

But I now know this place is Jesus' favorite church, so am not so in shock, just concerned for other people who come here searching fro answers about God and get . . . this.

Friend, I know Mr. Coleridge might seem "normal" to a fluffy bunny christian like yourself, but believe me, he is dangling precariously over the fires of Hell and needs to get right with Jesus if he ever wants to be Saved©. His (per)version of Christianity simply has NO basis whatsoever in the Bible, and you need to accept that if you ever want to reside in Heaven with us and laugh at all the degenerate sinners burning in Hell.

For example, you bring up the fact that we are working towards a world where Old Testament law still applies and then have the gall to say that that is crazy. Well, when attending services at your hippie church, did any of your pastors ever let you know that the Old Testament law still applies?

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-19

"And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." Luke 16:17

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21

Not enough evidence for you? Did you know that Jesus Himself condemned the Jews for not following the Old Testament and not killing children who didn't honor their mothers and fathers?

"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." Mark 7:9-13

How about the fact that Jesus Himself actually broadened the terms of what constitutes adultery from committing the act to merely looking at somebody with lust?

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:27-28

If you don't like whats in the Bible and want to go to Hell, that's fine, I won't be losing any sleep over it, but will instead wipe the dust off my feet.

"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Matthew 10:14

But what I don't understand is why you would call yourself a Christian if that's the case. Christianity isn't about rainbows and sunshine, and we True Christians™ accept that. If you can't accept that, then why hang around? Why not just fully embrace paganism, heathenism, eastern philosophies or even (God forbid) atheism? They're all a lot more palpable to the "God is love" mindset you have, and they'll all be burning equally in Hell along with false christians like yourself.