[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Finally, an answer to my question. There is at least one Evangelist at Landover, after all. You do think that the teachings of Jesus are a necessary component to leading a moral life. Hallelujah, we agree on at least one thing.

Here's one that will probably be easy for you to answer: Jesus said in Matthew 5:18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled (see also Luke 16:17). Does this mean that, according to Jesus, we must follow all of laws in the Old Testament, without exception? If not, would you please explain the relevance of Jesus' statemtent to leading a life of faith?.

Yes it does mean we true Christians follow ALL of the Old Testament laws as well as ALL of what Christ teaches in the New Testament threw Himself and His apostils. I though I was making that much clear with my previous statements. I would also like to state I BELIVE Jesus teachings are the ONLY WAY to a moral life. All other ways led to utter depravity.

(and before you ask; no, my clothes are only single fiber)

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

No, I think your Church is a joke because you write thousands upon thousands of words that don't address the question that I posed:


Finally, an answer to my question. There is at least one Evangelist at Landover, after all. You do think that the teachings of Jesus are a necessary component to leading a moral life. Hallelujah, we agree on at least one thing.

If you had been paying attention rather than having a radical communist agenda, you would have seen that several of us have already addressed your question.

Do you think this is some kind of quiz, and you are the headmaster? We are here to praise Jesus, not to be quizzed by a hippie who doesn't even accept the Holy KJV1611 Bible as the literal Word of God.

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Yes it does mean we true Christians follow ALL of the Old Testament laws as well as ALL of what Christ teaches in the New Testament threw Himself and His apostils. I though I was making that much clear with my previous statements. I would also like to state I BELIVE Jesus teachings are the ONLY WAY to a moral life. All other ways led to utter depravity.

(and before you ask; no, my clothes are only single fiber)

I appreciate your fastidious adherence to the Bible's sartorial ordinances. It is obvious that you are truly a man of the cloth. However, I'm more concerned with moral fiber than I am with the composition of your dungarees and shirts.

Just so I'm clear on this, you are saying every single Old Testament law is binding in its entirety on all Christians today, without exception, right? I'm sorry to be repetitive (especially after I have criticized the wordiness of Landover), but it seems to me that this point is the lynchpin of all that separates your doctrine from that of most other Christian denominations. I want to be sure that our discussion rests on a firm foundation.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Um. Let us imagine how an atheist would respond to some of your questions, and contrast that with the way a Bible-believer would answer the same question.

1. Jesus was the greatest moral teacher ever.

Atheist: Nope. Odds are that, unlike Buddha and Mohammad, Jesus never existed. There are no archaeological or contemporary historical records that any such person lived. The earliest Gospels were written when the apostles who supposedly authored them would have been very old men; most were written after the apostles were dead. Jesus was probably a fictional character created over about a century and a half, modeled on the mythos of Dionysus and Osiris. If he was real, there is nothing in his teachings that places him particularly far above Buddha, Mohammad, or Confucius.

Bible Believer: Jesus was the Son of God. He was not a prophet, He was God. He was not a great moral teacher, He was God. Either you believe that, or you believe that Jesus was a megalomaniac and liar because He Himself said in plain words that He was the Son of God, and that He and His Father were One. That is plain Bible truth. A human can either believe it, or he can go to Hell -- and WILL go to Hell, because Jesus said that is the penalty for not believing Him.

2. Do Old Testament laws apply to Christians today?

Atheist: Don't be an silly. The Old Testament is a mishmash of bronze-age history (mostly apocryphal) and superstition. If the author of the Bible were actually an omniscient and eternal Deity He would have told His children something useful, like how to sterilize surgical instruments, cure cancer, and make fusion power a reality. He would have warned us about Hitler and Pol Pot. Instead He saw fit to tell us about King Jehoram's rectal prolapse. Real smart.

Bible Believer: Jesus said, again in plain language, that not one jot nor tittle shall pass from the Law till all is fulfilled. Luke puts it, And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. Luke 16:17. These verses are unambiguous. But God's Law is not meant for Christians, IT IS MEANT FOR MANKIND. It is for God's Kingdom, and all the Earth and all mankind is God's kingdom.

The consequences for law of this fact [Shema Israel: Deu 6: 4,5] are total: it means one God, one law. The premise of polytheism is that we live in a multiverse, not a universe, that a variety of law-orders and hence lords exist, and that man cannot therefore be under one law except by virtue of imperialism....The law of Buddhist states is seen as valid for Buddhist nations, the law of Islam for Moslem states, the laws of pragmatism for humanistic states, and the laws of Scripture for Christian states, but none, it is held, have the right to claim that their law represents truth in any absolute sense. This, of course, militates against the Biblical declaration that God's order is absolute and absolutely binding on men and nations.


R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law (Nutley, NJ: Craig Press, 1973), p. 17 (emphasis added)

----

Now then! You are a Unitarian, therefore you have religious beliefs. What might the Atheist and the Bible Believer ask you?

Atheist: How much does the Spirit of Life weigh, what is its energy frequency, and what physical forces does it couple to -- gravitation, electromagnetism, the strong or the weak nuclear forces? If you say it is only "spiritual" and not physical then I challenge you to show that it is anything other than wishful thinking: prove that a Spirit of Life has any existence in the real world.

Bible Believer: Why does Oprah wear those tight dresses? Doesn't she know she's too chubby for them? Oh, and why in the WORLD would anyone listen to what an atheist says? I mean...just open your eyes, and all the world declares God's beautiful love! Yesterday I saw a three-legged dog get hit by a pickup truck, and as I watched it twitching and pooping itself in the ditch this manifestation of God's handiwork filled me with awe. How can an atheist NOT believe in God?

Sincerely,

~~ OEJ

[Brother McGregor]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

(2) Put together a string of insults and pretend that is an answer (Joshua, whom I thought was the dimmest ornament on the Landover Christmas tree, but Brother Cletus just disabused me of that notion).

Be that as it may starsinyureyes.... the fact remains that you vilify God when you preach anything other than the word which is HIS WORD...yes all cappy like that so you get the point.
I'm not here to shine on bub....just here to witness. I'm a humble Scot and all I do is witness. I am not a fancypant razzledazzler type like you who embraces fornicators, sodomites and sododykes and other abominations.

I'll thank you to remember that and I will carry my dim badge quite happily. God shines for me and through me and you should remove those blinders.

[JennyD]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

I'm sorry that, while you were composing the sequel to War and Peace, you forgot to address my question, too. It's a bit surprising, actually, since, unlike Brother Cletus, you seem to have a functioning mind. Have you perchance been taking obfuscation lessons from Ms. Phelps-Dodge? Anyway, why are you so afraid to answer a simple question about your faith? Are you ashamed of the things you believe?

I'm sorry, among your incessant attacks upon my God, my friends, my Church, and my person, I missed any question from you which has not been repeatedly answered.

What's your question? Do I think Jesus was a great teacher?

Jesus is God. Jesus is THE Teacher, also THE Father, THE Son, THE Comforter, THE Enforcer of His Law.

Any other questions? And are you able to ask them without stringing together enough insults to decorate your pagan anti-Christmas tree?

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Now then! You are a Unitarian, therefore you have religious beliefs. What might the Atheist and the Bible Believer ask you?

Indeed I do. As for the questions of the athiests and Bible believers, they are good questions (though some seem a bit irreverant). I invite the athiests and Bible believers alike to visit our discussion forums and ask away--or, better yet, to stop by any Unitarian Universalist church and experience the joy of a shared, loving, and accepting Spiritual experience firsthand.

These verses are unambiguous. But God's Law is not meant for Christians, IT IS MEANT FOR MANKIND. It is for God's Kingdom, and all the Earth and all mankind is God's kingdom.

Excellent. I stand corrected.

Now that you've set me straight with respect to the moral authority of Jesus, perhaps you could enlighten me as to your views of the Apostles and the KJV translation committee. Is every word in the 1611 King James Version of the New Testament absolutely and literally true, or are the Gospels and other writings merely the work of fallible men that might contain misstatements or misquotations?

[Brother McGregor]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Finally, an answer to my question. There is at least one Evangelist at Landover, after all. You do think that the teachings of Jesus are a necessary component to leading a moral life. Hallelujah, we agree on at least one thing.

In case you missed it, we have all been saying the same thing to you. We believe in every single utterance. Why haven't you answered our questions about the sodomites?

[Simple]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Hi, everyone. I'm a recently ordained Unitarian Universalist minister. One of my parishoners, who, in tears, pointed me to this site as an example of a few bad apples spoiling all that is good and bountiful that the Lord has given to us. To tell the truth, I think maybe she understated the case, but I don't think tears (honest expression of a valid emotion though they certainly were) are the right answer. Truth comes only from understanding and openness and charity toward those who harbor a different viewpoint.

One thing that strikes me as funny right off the bat is the way you seem to revel in negativity. If your only point is that there are cruelties and contradictions in the Bible, you won't get an argument from me. I have studied the Bible, along with Scriptures from many world religions. I find something good, something useful in my quest for spiritual development, in all of them, but they were written by men (and, in a few cases, by women). Mankind does err, and mankind does sin, so it's not surprising to see that reflected in holy writings. There's a lot more to God than stonings and historical inaccuracies in a book, though.

If you really want to bring others closer to the God that is inside all of us, I don't see how it helps your cause to insult a highly moral man like the Catholic priest Father Martin or to call everyone who disagrees with you a homosexual (I'm not a Catholic or a homosexual, but I wouldn't take it as an insult if you said that I were).

So I'd like to take the high road and look for some common ground with the Baptistry of Landover. Let's start here: I believe that Jesus Christ was a great moral teacher, in fact, the greatest moral educator ever. Do you agree?

When people take LSD and have demons appear to them, the demons often say such things "Moral Educator," instead to "Son Of God" when trying to gain their confidence. The LSD you have taken has confused you to no end. Every Unitarian takes LSD every day

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

I appreciate your fastidious adherence to the Bible's sartorial ordinances. It is obvious that you are truly a man of the cloth. However, I'm more concerned with moral fiber than I am with the composition of your dungarees and shirts.

Just so I'm clear on this, you are saying every single Old Testament law is binding in its entirety on all Christians today, without exception, right? I'm sorry to be repetitive (especially after I have criticized the wordiness of Landover), but it seems to me that this point is the lynchpin of all that separates your doctrine from that of most other Christian denominations. I want to be sure that our discussion rests on a firm foundation.

I assure you friend I am more moral fiber that two shredded wheats.

Except were Jesus teachings modify it friend and of course as Romans reminds us were prohibited by secular law. That is why for instance we do not stone sinners as God directs, due to oppressive, anti-Christian secular law we are commanded to obey.

Now that you've set me straight with respect to the moral authority of Jesus, perhaps you could enlighten me as to your views of the Apostles and the KJV translation committee. Is every word in the 1611 King James Version of the New Testament absolutely and literally true, or are the Gospels and other writings merely the work of fallible men that might contain misstatements or misquotations?

The KJV1611 is the true Bible, translated into English by God using the committee as human pens. The other Bibles are false with their source in Satan since they are based on a version of The Bible found in the trash in an Egyptian monastery. The word of the all-knowing, all-powerful God is not lost in the trash or distorted by mere mortal men.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

StarrKingGrad, perhaps you have come to Landover to mock fundamentalist Christianity. To slyly imply that Bible literalists are not merely woefully misguided cretins but also opposed to enlightened humanism, predisposed to authoritarian theocracy, and are moral cripples who have traded rational thought for UNTHINKING BELIEF!

Well, as the Good Book says:

And Huzzab shall be led away captive, she shall be brought up, and her maids shall lead her as with the voice of doves, tabering upon their breasts. Nahum 2:7

Be not like Huzzab! And be not like her handmaidens! Taber not upon your breast with rhythms syncopated and satirical.

Mock not, lest God find you a mockernut.

Interesting word, mockernut. The mockernut hickory grows up to 80 feet tall; it received its name because its fruit -- a nut -- has a very thick rind but a very small kernel. Metaphorically it is like unto certain humans: thick-skulled but with only a tiny brain.

(No, I was not thinking of Bush supporters when I wrote that. Bush is God's Own President, he said so himself.)

I see I am in my cups. Alas.

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. 1 Timothy 5:23

Or, in my case perhaps, a couple of 20-oz cans of Black Ice Malt Liquor ("the brand with added grain alcohol for that extra-smooth intoxication").

Alright, I will mince no more words. The Christian Right supposes -- CORRECTLY -- that the Bible mandates an absolutist religion and an authoritarian theocracy. Since the Enlightenment the foundational assumptions of Christianity has been selectively ignored. In America, however, Christian fundamentalists are no longer ignoring the dominionist mandate. And they have made good progress in getting their people into the mainstream of government. In seizing the high places of power.

This is what they write:

Those who are obedient to His commands will rule the world, reconstructing it for His glory in terms of His laws. Psalm 2 shows God laughing and sneering at the pitiful attempts of the wicked to fight against and overthrow His Kingdom....He has, in fact, warned all earthly rulers to submit to His government, or perish (Ps. 2:10-12). And the same is true of His Church. The nation that will not serve us will perish (Isa. 60:12); all the peoples of the earth will be subdued under our feet (Ps. 47:1-3)--promises made originally to Israel, but now to be fulfilled in the New Israel, the Church.

David Chilton, The Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation (Ft. Worth, TX: Dominion Press, 1984), p. 117. (emphasis added)

So let us mince no more words. Mince may be marvellous, but words make a poor porridge. Are you with us or against us? Do you stand against Christian totalitarianism, or are you in sympathy with it?

And, if you are not in sympathy with it, have you come here to mock it?

~~ OEJ

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Just so I'm clear on this, you are saying every single Old Testament law is binding in its entirety on all Christians today, without exception, right?

Of course not. Some of the OT laws were explicitly abrogated in the NT, such as those that required circumcision or forbid working on the Sabbath, for example. All OT laws that were not specifically repealed in the NT are still in effect.

Are you familiar with Colossians 3:8-14? If so, what does it mean to you? Has that ever been a topic of a Landover forum discussion?

I believe we had one on an earlier version of the forum, but that is not still up. We have a Bible in a Year forum now, and we should get to Colossians sometime this summer.

But to answer your earlier question, yes, I am very familiar with Colossians, as I am with the rest of the Bible. We at Landover take the passage you mentioned to heart. We never speak with anger, wrath, malice, evil, or filth-talking. We don't lie or act like our old selves before we got saved. We believe that all people can become saved, no matter what color they are, how bad they smell, or how ugly they are.

Finally, if we didn't love you, we wouldn't keep trying to get you saved, friend.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Addendum no in festinatio:

Holy bowtie macaroni, StarrKingGrad, I looked into one topic on the BeliefNet forum. The particular thread I happened on was all about how people were finding themselves in Wicca and Satanism and paganism and "Buhdism" (sic! sic! sic! Two d's and the h comes AFTER!). BeliefNet? LooseSuperstitionNet!

Geez. Are there any serious threads on the forum or are they all for kids?

~~ OEJ

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Why haven't you answered our questions about the sodomites?

Based on the way your avatar is dressed, what you refer to as sodomy is obviously more within your bailiwick than it is within mine. But you should be proud of your non-traditional sexuality, Joshua. Don't let these True Pastors or whatever they call themselves make you feel ashamed of your sexual feelings for other men. They aren't wrong, they aren't evil, they are just the way God made you. That, in a nutshell, is all the wisdom I can dispense to you on the topic of homoerotic love.

As for the repetition, I just want to be sure that nobody accuses me of misquoting you when we get to the point in this discussion where you will explain to me, and to the other unsaved trash who read this thread, why the many contradictions in the Bible are not contradictions at all. I simply don't want to hear in post 927 of this thread that some of Jesus's words may have been altered in transcription or translation. Best to clear up the ambiguities from the get-go, especially given the tendency in your forums toward stream of consciousness as a rhetorical device.

In truth, I am your best friend, since you can cover a lot more Biblical ground answering my questions than you can arguing with adolescent boys about the philosophical underpinnings of Super Mario Brothers, even if most of you are too dense to see it. Whatever your game, you guys really ought to work out some ground rules for how you deal with different kinds of posters.

Of course, if you're worried that I might convince a few lurkers that there is a positive, life-affirming religious path that does not discount science or differences of opinion or human feelings or ambiguities in sacred texts or plain common sense, you might as well shut this thread down now, because, if God has a plan for me, that's it.

So, to return to the topic at hand, if you do not believe that every word of the KJV 1611 Bible is literally and unambiguously true, now is the time to speak up.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian

Of course, if you're worried that I might convince a few lurkers that there is a positive, life-affirming religious path that does not discount science or differences of opinion or human feelings or ambiguities in sacred texts or plain common sense, you might as well shut this thread down now, because, if God has a plan for me, that's it.

That is the least of my worries, friend.

So, to return to the topic at hand, if you do not believe that every word of the KJV 1611 Bible is literally and unambiguously true, now is the time to speak up.

I believe every word of the KJV 1611 Bible is literally and unambiguously true. The King James Bible is God's Word to English speaking people.

Pastor Billy-Reuben