[JonathonWilder]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

That doesn't say He only gained the ability to forgive our sins by taking human form temporarily.

Saying He had no such ability is blasphemy, because you say that God's powers are somehow limited.

Remember I am a nontrinitarian Christian, and remember Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I am not limiting God or His powers in the least nor making Jesus Christ less then what he is shown in the Bible.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

Remember I am a nontrinitarian Christian, and remember Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I am not limiting God or His powers in the least nor making Jesus Christ less then what he is shown in the Bible.

You are still limiting God's power if you think He had to create a demigod (half-human, half-god) child in order to forgive us our sins, when God Himself decided what is sin and what is not. Thus, you are blaspheming whether you deny that Jesus is God or not.

Now, where IN THE BIBLE does it say that Jesus had to take a human form and die so that God could forgive us our sins?

[JonathonWilder]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

God has a purpose for all things, that and he is a perfect God that will not force us to obey him. God limit's himself, I do not limit him. God is all powerful and all knowing, there are numerous scriptures that clearly stated Jesus Christ would come onto this world as a mortal and did not say salvation would come any other way. What more to I need then that? The Bible shows only one way to salvation, and that is through Jesus Christ coming down to earth and suffering all things for us.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

God has a purpose for all things, that and he is a perfect God that will not force us to obey him. God limit's himself, I do not limit him.

There is no evidence of this limit of which you speak in the Bible. NONE.

No, He won't force us to obey Him. We have free will. We can obey His every command, or we agree to be burned alive for all time in His Lake of Fire.

God is all powerful and all knowing, there are numerous scriptures that clearly stated Jesus Christ would come onto this world as a mortal and did not say salvation would come any other way. What more to I need then that? The Bible shows only one way to salvation, and that is through Jesus Christ coming down to earth and suffering all things for us.

No, it is through believing Jesus forgives your sins, and not sinning any more. Jesus did not "suffer all things". Your average person with unmedicated, terminal cancer or smallpox or meningitis suffers more than Jesus did for a few hours on a cross before He died more quickly than normal. (They didn't even have to break His legs, like they did with many who took too long to die.)

His sacrifice was temporary and symbolic, and it is why we don't have to sacrifice animals anymore.

At no place does the Bible say Jesus had to take mortal form and die so God could forgive sins. Maybe your pastor made that up, but then he and you are both blasphemers.

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

Read John Chapter 1 of the King James Version of the Bible to understand, especially verses John 1:10-14

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Start reading from the beginning of the chapter:

John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh. The clear reading (not interpretation!) is that God was made flesh.

[Pastor Ed Lowman]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

Remember I am a nontrinitarian Christian, and remember Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I am not limiting God or His powers in the least nor making Jesus Christ less then what he is shown in the Bible.

No, demon. Christadelphians, just like "Jehovah's witlessses" or oneness Pentecostals, are a damnable cult, and you appear to be an ignorant stooge of theirs. You are denying the obvious truth of the trinity by calling Christ a created being. The very start of the Bible declares the truth of God's personage...

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (Genesis 1:26)

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19). "In the name of" means "by the authority of." That doesn't make sense if both Christ and the Holy Spirit are just God with different aliases. And the very scriptures you mention in John 17 with Christ praying to the Father refute your point--why would Christ have prayed and talked to himself??? Are you saying Christ is schizophrenic?

And by the way, your stupid New World Translation's rendering of John 1:1 (among other passages that prove Christ's eternality) is inexcusable. Any first-year flunked-out seminary student knows that there is no indefinite article in Greek, so how can Jesus be called "a god" instead of God?

Continuing...

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen." (2 Corinthians 13:14)

Pretty hard to deny these Scriptures, I'd say. But go ahead and try. I'll beat you over the head with my Bible and the verses in it!

Pastor Ed

[Thinks Design]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

God has a purpose for all things, that and he is a perfect God that will not force us to obey him. God limit's himself, I do not limit him. God is all powerful and all knowing, there are numerous scriptures that clearly stated Jesus Christ would come onto this world as a mortal and did not say salvation would come any other way. What more to I need then that? The Bible shows only one way to salvation, and that is through Jesus Christ coming down to earth and suffering all things for us.

I don't think that is right. The Designer is not limited in any way. You say He makes us perfectly (true) but for us to be perfect He cannot limit Himself. If He was limiting Himself He would not be being perfect and since we know that He is this cannot be the case.

How would you measure the Designer's non-perfectidity? His actions (readily seen in creation) are not imperfect: everything fits.

This is fundemental in the Design Inference. If things are not perfect they fall over: this iPhone I'm using now needs to work perfectly else it will not work at all. If it is not perfect it will show no useable information.

When we look around do we see the equivalent of a blank screen? No, we see wasps and spiders, cats and fleas, ivy and oak; all living in perfect Designed perfection.

If that system were limited it would not work so logic dictates that we can discard your hypothesis that he Designer (God) limits himself.

Putting it another way He could create a rock so big He could of lift it (no limits on creation) but then He would lift it (no limits on strength) with no paradox (no limits on ability).

Do you see?

ThinksDesign

[JonathonWilder]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

No, demon. Christadelphians, just like "Jehovah's witlessses" or oneness Pentecostals, are a damnable cult, and you appear to be an ignorant stooge of theirs. You are denying the obvious truth of the trinity by calling Christ a created being. The very start of the Bible declares the truth of God's personage...

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (Genesis 1:26)

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19). "In the name of" means "by the authority of." That doesn't make sense if both Christ and the Holy Spirit are just God with different aliases. And the very scriptures you mention in John 17 with Christ praying to the Father refute your point--why would Christ have prayed and talked to himself??? Are you saying Christ is schizophrenic?

And by the way, your stupid New World Translation's rendering of John 1:1

First of I used the King James Version of the Bible only not some 'New World Translation' so sorry but no.
And to it is because Jesus is actually praying to his Father, nothing else makes sense as like you said Jesus would not pray to himself.
Lastly lets look over part of one of the scriptures you used:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26) This scripture clearly shows God is talking to someone other then himself. Another scripture is much like it:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus Chirst was with God in the beginning as simply as that, I never said Jesus Christ was a created being.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

...Lastly lets look over part of one of the scriptures you used:
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26) This scripture clearly shows God is talking to someone other then himself...

Errr, no. That's usage of the "royal we", or majestic plural.

The royal "we"
Jewish scholars point to the Majestic plural or the royal we in many verses of the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh. "Obviously, the plural form is used in the same way as in the divine appellation 'Elohim', to indicate the all-inclusiveness of God's attributes of authority and power, the plurality of majesty. It is customary for one in authority to speak of himself as if he were a plurality...

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majesti...royal_.22we.22

[JonathonWilder]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

Errr, no. That's usage of the "royal we", or majestic plural.

Actually yor wrong, God is not like the kings of earth, here is a better explaination.

First lets consider the structure of this scripture in it original language of Hebrew. In this passage God is translated from the word 'elohym', which is a Hebrew word that is plural in nature. This for those that don't know means more then one and thus it can be established that God was talking to someone. Which would be no one other then his Son, Jesus Christ, who it would seem from the scripture is being treated as a equal with his Father. Actually the bible clearly shows there is more then on being, entity, or person which could in a sense be called a Trinity but the in the physical sense. The idea that the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost are three positions or aspect of a single being all being God is in opposition to the above verse. That is unless your willing to say God talks to himself and sent himself on a divine mission, laughs. You doing discredit to God by giving him voices in his head or multiple personifies.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

Actually yor wrong, God is not like the kings of earth, here is a better explaination...

Whose word to take? Someone who has spent "has spent over forty years as a lecturer and seminar leader on the relationship of the New Testament to Judaism" or someone who use "yor" and cannot spell "explanation"? Hmmm...

[JonathonWilder]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

Whose word to take? Someone who has spent "has spent over forty years as a lecturer and seminar leader on the relationship of the New Testament to Judaism" or someone who use "yor" and cannot spell "explanation"? Hmmm...

You completely ignored everything else I posted, basing your argument of a fallacy. Throwing everything I said because I misspelled two word, and there not being any mistakes where it counts... the rest of my post.
Please answer and look over the rest of my post.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

You completely ignored everything else I posted, basing your argument of a fallacy. Throwing everything I said because I misspelled two word, and there not being any mistakes where it counts... the rest of my post.
Please answer and look over the rest of my post.

From where did you cut and paste the rest of your post?

[Didymus Much]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

...The idea that the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost are three positions or aspect of a single being all being God is in opposition to the above verse...

Unless you read it as I stated, usage of the "royal we".

What do you think of John 10:30, "I and my Father are one.", then?

...Throwing everything I said because I misspelled two word, and there not being any mistakes where it counts... the rest of my post.
Please answer and look over the rest of my post.

I thought I'd spare you the embarrassment, but as you insist...

...You doing discredit to God by giving him voices in his head or multiple personifies.

"You doing discredit" to your English teachers.

[JonathonWilder]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

From where did you cut and paste the rest of your post?

Actually I wrote it myself, my own words. Taking from my own personal view of that scripture plus what others have said and those that have studied and researched the bible.